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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Well, after one too many sleepless nights the first game from MoB Games has finally launched on Kickstarter!

Click the link below to get all the details and join the campaign.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1325371493/fractured-stars?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=fracture


MoB Games intends for the game to be available at retail as soon as Kickstarter pledges have been shipped and is only the first of many games we have planned. We are a new company and are aware we have a long way to go. What we do have is a a passion for design and attention to detail that we believe shows through in our miniature sculpts, background and rules. Check out our facebook page for more information on Fractured Stars as our journey progresses.


We hope you will join us, support the campaign and let your friends in the gaming community know about our project! Remember, the more backers we get the more Stretch Goals we can unlock and the more shiny new toys we can bring to your gaming tables

   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






Question: Why 20mm scale?

   
Made in nl
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





The Netherlands

The Ridgeback is a funny nod to the old school Warhound Titan.

Bits Blitz Designs - 3D printing a dark futuristic universe 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Hi John,

There are a number of reasons why we decided to go for 20mm.

Firstly the game is designed for entire infantry platoons and vehicle troops, so larger models would require a huge playing area and armies would be prohibitively expensive to collect.

We also wanted to ensure that every model was in scale with each other which is possible to do with even our largest models and still have them be practical gaming pieces.

An alternative would have been to go down to 15mm or smaller but this compromises the level of detail we can get on the miniatures and the proportions that infantry can be sculpted.

Finally, 1/72 or HO scale scenery which is cheap and widely available fits perfectly with 20mm models. Also virtually all scenery used with 30mm models (outside of buildings) can be freely used with 20mm and is often more 'to scale' with the models.


We understand this scale is uncommon but we believe it to be the perfect choice for the game we have made. If it really is a deal breaker then take comfort that if this first game successfully funds on Kickstarter, our second planned game (Fractured Stars : Special Ops) will use 30mm scale versions of our designs
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

MoB_Games wrote:
..., our second planned game (Fractured Stars : Special Ops) will use 30mm scale versions of our designs

That's a brave choice...

I would recommend reading some of the discussion threads around Star Wars Legion when it was first revealed that it was out of scale from the previous game. If only so you have plenty of time to prepare responses to the inevitable wave of complaints from those who (will have) bought your first game. Being out of scale with other manufacturers might be an impediment to some, but being deliberately out of scale with yourself tends to be regarded as downright unfriendly business. People see it as nothing more than an attempt to make them buy the same miniatures twice.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/15 12:44:38


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Here's a link to the previous thread announcing the upcoming kickstarter which has a bit lengthier discussion on the original scale question.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/759061.page

I wish you luck with the campaign but the choice of scale rule me out right away and I'll echo the sentiment above regarding your 30mm followup plan. I see you've put alot of thought and effort into it so regardless of my opinions I hope you succeed.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

Echoing other sentiments - Good luck, but I think you've made some poor decisions which are going to impact the potential for your games success.

A real world platoon is typically 20-40 dudes, both 40k and warmachine/hordes regularly play with model counts double or triple that and nobody balks at the cost. Further, despite the presence of HO scale scenery, very little of it is designed for scifi wargaming - most terrain ideal for wargaming is made for 15mm or 28-32mm minis, this is the terrain collections that most gamers, clubs, and stores already have in their collections. You think you're making it easier for people to play your game due to the vailability of cheap terrain for your game - the reality is that you're asking them to collect more terrain on top of what they already own for a scale that isn't popular for other games, which decreases the utility that they might get from that 20mm/HO scale terrain and really makes it more expensive for them to play overall.

Finally, if you have a 30mm game planned, why waste my time and money on this and have to collect a new range of terrain when I can just wait for you to do that game instead? Thats besides the fact that you will absolutely piss off a whole lotta people by releasing a separate set of the same minis in a slightly different scale for a follow up skirmish game - doing both games in the same scale will probably net you way more sales (you're selling the same product for two games = increased utility) and improve your profit margins (the sunk costs of development for the minis and production tooling/molds is only paid once, you'll have more sales per set of minis meaning your costs to break even on production will be lower per unit sold, instead of having to pay twice for slight variations of what is essentially the same product).

Now, if you were doing a 15mm scale game and a 30mm scale game, THEN it would make sense, but 20-30mm is like, too close a jump, yknow?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/15 17:36:38


CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Thank you for the feedback - and most importantly the good wishes!

We do understand that 20mm is a controversial choice (although just how controversial has come as a surprise!) but having seen the finished product we know we simply could not have produced models to the level of detail we have, in scale and in proportion, if we had gone for 15mm or smaller.

Whilst we understand that 40k and similar games are often played with large numbers of models our opinion (and we appreciate it is just ours!) is that these games can feel cramped. Our system can comfortably play with larger model counts than 40k at a fraction of the cost.

With regards to our future plans, I must stress these are very long term. We have learnt the lessons from companies taking a 'scattergun' approach to supporting their games. We intend to fully complete not only the 3 model ranges available on the kickstarter, but all 6 model ranges for the game before moving on to develop the next game. What I can tell you is that it will be a game with completely different scope and feel, albeit set in the same universe, and the model scale will be appropriate for the game we will make.

Thank you again for the good wishes and we hope to see you as part of this campaign.
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






I think the amount of detail on the 20mm scale is more of a negative than a positive. It will be too difficult to paint that detail! I think part of the reason 15mm is popular is because nobody expects you to paint detail at that scale (some people manage it, good for them) - 15mm is more about utility painting than showing off. Painting a 20mm sounds like almost as much work in painting as 30mm, only I'd have to use smaller brushes and keep the magnifying visor on.

The only other game I can think of that ran HO-scale was RAFM era Heavy Gear. It worked for them because the main unit was a 2-3" tall IFV, very few people bothered with infantry, and eventually they switched to another unpopular scale (12mm) which made the game more affordable but annoyed the existing player base. It ended with gears being roughly 25-40mm tall, which is just like painting 25/28/30mm scale infantry, and 12mm infantry is so small you basically couldn't detail them at all (much like 15mm).

Basically, I think your chosen scale doesn't mesh well with an infantry focused game. If you were vehicle focused, it would make a lot more sense.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

There have been many infantry focused 20mm games in the historical section of our hobby. They took advantage of all the 1:72 kits for vehicles and figures out there.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Hi John Prins - the game does not necessarily need to be infantry focused.

Infantry can play a very important role in capturing objectives and screening vehicles from enemy close combat units but the game can be played just as well with only vehicles if you wish.

To give you an example of army building, there are 7 different types of formation in the TCU army list, 4 of which can be fielded with no infantry at all (although 3 of those can include mounted infantry as an option). Only 2 of the seven formations require infantry on foot as a compulsory choice and even then not in great numbers.

You can of course go infantry heavy if you prefer - the choice is entirely up to you!
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

At the risk of potentially offending you, I'll point out that you've passed the crucial first 48 hours of funding and are at only 10% of your already very modest funding goal. Typically, the pattern is that funding slows down after that period. The conversation in both this thread and the previous one has been dominated by repeated questions about your nonstandard scale choice and it's not just the same folks in both (myself excluded). At some point it would probably be advisable to reconsider whether the rest of the gaming community shares your position that 20mm is a good fit in terms of the trade off between detail and model count since you're attempting to not just create this for your own personal hobby needs but rather as a product to sell.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Hi warboss,

I'm not offended at all, although there is a certain frustration that this seems to be the only question!

We took a decision that we felt was right for our game, and as CptJake points out, a decision which is not as unusual for historical gaming.

At the end of the day it's clear there are some people for whom the scale is a deal breaker and that's fine. If there is any other feedback beyond the scale that would be great to hear too :-)
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






MoB_Games wrote:
Hi John Prins - the game does not necessarily need to be infantry focused.


That's good, especially if your system is flexible enough to handle things like tank battles, IFV/mechs/robots and infantry.

Moving along to other comments, I like the dog-soldier aliens, but I do wonder if digitgrade bipeds would use form fitting suits as armor. Getting into those leg pieces would be incredibly difficult compared to the human style of strap on plates over fatigues. That and there's a lack of overall room for the joints to move, while the human armor is very nice and realistic.

Same goes for the helmet design, which looks like it would be very uncomfortable for a muzzled creature to wear - though I expect highlighting that they're dog aliens is a style choice. Maybe something a bit more open, so we can see the lower jaw/teeth? If the Kannid were designing practical armor, ear wings would just be left out in favor of speaker earphones and a smoother armored helmet, or just armor blisters over the ears.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Just a word of warning: you refer to the Striders as "BattleMechs" in some areas. BattleMech is a registered trademark of Topps as part of the Battletech line
   
Made in us
Raging Rat Ogre





Texas

Is there a stripped down version of the rules available for potential backers to view? Not a fan of the scale (I play 15mm and 28mm almost exclusively) but I do like good rules sets, and the Kannid mechs seem quite nice. Also, do you have more pics of the MDF terrain?

Urusei Yatsura, Cerebus the Aardvark, Machiavelli, Plato and Happy Days. So, how was your childhood?

DC:70S+G++M+++B+I-Pat43/f+D++A(WTF)/eWD079R+++T(R)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





@John Prins - You're right that the Kannid designs are influenced more by aesthetics than practicality. The third and final infantry unit we want to make is a tribal scout unit which would have had exposed areas and minimal armour. Glad you like the human armour though

@ThaneCawdor - thanks for the heads up. We've been referring to them as 'mechs' simply because the term is widely understood as a large piloted robot. In print they will be officially referred to as 'Striders' or 'Totems' depending on context.

@Sacredroach - our rules are only ~14 pages long as they are designed to be easily used with large numbers of models. We are looking at a downloadable version and will provide an update when we can get that ready. With regards to the terrain we're getting some more cut and will be replacing the picture on the kickstarter page ASAP. We painted almost our entire stock for a demo and then realised we hadn't photographed anything 'bare'


Thanks again for your interest.
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






"Strider" is a Heavy Gear term, but I'm not sure if it's copyrighted.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/02 23:15:31


 
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Prowler






Yorkshire, UK

 JBSchroeds wrote:

I know it's not what you want to hear, but your designs are bland, unimaginative, uninspiring and derivative. Here's some maths about train scales.


Wow JB, did the creators kick your puppy or something??


Sci-fi vehicles don't look like modern vehicles - this is a good thing, I don't want a sci-fi game to look like a screenshot from World of Tanks.

The Kannid mech looks a bit like a GW warhound - beside the fact that I can't think what a mech built by a canine alien species would look like other than that, its a bit pot-kettle-black given GWs long and glorious history of plagiarising everything in sight!

The scout car is not militarily realistic - I've driven the real thing. The suspension did not look like a monster truck, and you can't see jack looking through a vision port smaller than a letterbox anyway. The wheel thing is a fair point, though.


All in all I quite like the designs, particularly the TCU stuff. I would have pledged but the lack of interest (driven mainly it seems by the unusual scale) means I won't be able to find players. If they redo the Kickstarter with the same stuff in 15mm I'll put my hand in my pocket. I'd love to do 15mm but so many of the miniatures out there look terrible - these designs at that scale would have gotten me started!

While you sleep, they'll be waiting...

Have you thought about the Axis of Evil pension scheme? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/02 23:15:17


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles

 JBSchroeds wrote:
And while some real-world designs do have very small windows, they generally aren't arranged so that the largest blind spot is dead ahead like it is in the model.


Fair points on the suspension, but the front windows don't bother me specifically because this is a futuristic vehicle. Looking at the design I just assume there is a sophisticated sensor suite in play, and that the crew's MK1 sensors (eyeballs) are irrelevant or used as an absolute last resort. Our current generation fighter craft use computers to essentially fly the planes, with the human pilots primarily acting as guidance systems. As technology and our dependence on it increases, it doesn't seem unreasonable that something like a windshield would be absent from a military vehicle if more advanced systems were in place to effectively negate the loss of visibility resulting from a removed windshield.
   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




Maybe the scout car has hydraulics.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Ellicott City, MD

So my two cents, the scale thing is a show stopper for a large majority of people. Gamers and your LFGS's have shelves full of 28mm terrain and some may have 15mm terrain, virtually none have 20mm terrain and requiring your players to buy new terrain increases the cost of adoption of your game past what most players are interested in spending.

As for the designs, I kind of like the Candid designs but have to agree with JBSchroeds that their mechs look almost like a direct copy of the old Armorcast warhounds, which while some people may have some nostalgic love for, are generally not considered the height of model design. The humans just don't do it for me, they are a bit too samey and I think that is because of how their helmets are modeled. Every one has the exact same chin and frown showing, which makes them look like clones rather than a squad of different people. Maybe making the helmet designs fully enclosed may be a good idea.

Vonjankmon
Death Korp of Krieg
Dark Angels 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






Perhaps relaunching with the special opps 30mm scale might be an approach. There is at least some interest in this stuff in 30mm and then if that works it might be worth considering again the 20mm.

I guess a lot of people buy models from a new range to use with their existing models. Models will often be bought to be used with another universe and another ruleset. A new scale misses out on all these. Of course, sometimes it succeeds, such as Dropzone commander, Dystopian wars and Adeptus Titanicus being huge successes despite being at previously largely unused scales (outside historicals). But they were extremely rare major sucesses in a very crowded field.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
In my day, you didn't recognize the greatest heroes of humanity because they had to ride the biggest creatures or be massive in size themselves. No, they had the most magnificent facial hair! If it was good enough for Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwarzhelm, it should be good enough for anyone!
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

When I look at the vehicles you've made and painted so far such as these:
https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/022/554/539/b748cfe2046f00f262f20b7bcae3cb87_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&w=680&fit=max&v=1536939697&auto=format&q=92&s=448abf9da1faaeb4e3b422f0d19999f9

I don't get the mental nor visual impression of a model for a wargame but rather of a plastic toy for kids. The kind that has really simplistic detail and is generally chunky and made of plastics that are tough but not high detail.

Your tank is the same here:
https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/022/554/962/0642945e744d5d40802e24f8618084ac_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&w=680&fit=max&v=1536942057&auto=format&q=92&s=583ad70c1fb0c37d1a334bb884b5eadb

Look past the worn battle paintwork and its really neat and clean but too neat and clean. Again it looks more like a toy than a miniature.


Now its a smaller scale than 30mm, but I think that what you've got are sculpts that would likely work well at a scale similar to, say, Epic 40K, but not at a larger scale. They just seem too basic for a wargame.

There is, "something missing" from them and its not just detail but the presentation and design. I like the idea of a hunched over "wolf" walker, but its just not looking right to me.



The world bland has been used and I'd honestly second it. The overall designs are not bad and your latter larger designs like your many wheeled tank are appearing better, but I still think that you need to take this project back to the drawing board and re-think. Study other lines, look at what designs have and have not worked; produce some alternative sculpts and testers and get some earlier feedback from an external group of wargamers etc... I feel as if part of the issue with this project might be that you've developed it "in house" too much and the result is that you've made choices - such as scale and design approach - which make sense to the closed compartment of the team; but which when presented to the market just don't resonate with what many in the market want. And like it or not if you are funding through KS you've got to follow the market somewhat since you are totally relying on the market to get inspired and fund your project.




I would also second that if you've not funded within the first week (and ideally within the first day or two) then chances are you either won't fund or you will only "just" fund (which for most miniature KS is not an ideal position). You need to whip up a storm of marketing so that when you launch people are ready and paying right there and then. That your previous thread was a bit muted in response was, I think, a warning sign.

Ideally I'd say take things back a step, rethink and adjust your approach and designs and then consider getting feedback; reacting and then at least getting places like Beasts of War to feature you before you launch. The month up to your launch should be full of marketing and sneak peaks and details so that people are informed and interested way before the KS. The KS shouldn't mark the start of heavy marketing it should be part way through it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 12:04:04


A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




My honest feedback would echo most of the others here. The scale is an absolute dealbreaker for me. It may well work better for what you want to do, but you need to be more mindful of your customers rather than your own opinions. Unless something about your game really, really grabs my attention and gets me seriously excited, I'm not about to invest money in a brand new game and a whole table's worth of new terrain too. That's especially true when the terrain may not be the easiest thing to source.

I agree with the comments about the models too. The Kannids are OK, if a little goofy looking to me, but the human factions feel pretty uninspired to me. They look bland and nothing distinguishes them as being anything other than another generic sci-fi trooper. The vehicles suffer the most from this, for sure. They definitely look unfinished and on par with the sort of stuff model companies were churning out 15-20 years ago. I think the points @JBSchroeds makes are very valid. The designs just feel wrong, often in ways you can't figure out at first but that become obvious as you look into them more.

I'm really not trying to come off as being too harsh here, but I think the fact you underestimated how the scale would affect your product doesn't exactly instil much confidence in potential customers about the future of the game. It seems a pretty fundamental error in judgement to me. You also need to really try to think about what your USP is. At the moment I don't think it's the models. Maybe you were hoping it was the scale, but that seems to have backfired badly. If it's the rules, we need much more a taste of how they work to encourage us to back you.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Tribune





Michigan

Agreeing with what the others have said, I think my best comparison is the Armorcast titans and some of their vehicles. While useful for their time, and true to source material (upscaled Epic models), they do not stand the test of time when taking consideration of new techniques and the ability to add details, almost on the fly with computer modeling tools. A simple look at Dreamforge designs will tell you all you need to know about adding the details and tweaks to make the designs work. Furthermore you can review his old designs and see what he learned (his Imperator). I do wish you luck, and I hope you take the advice given by the community to heart.

No, spraying three colors on your minis does not count as painted! 5k+
 
   
 
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