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Hello! I didn't have any issues with this before now, as I've always played movement as when a model in a unit moves, the whole unit is considered to have moved. My reasoning comes from one of the first paragraphs in the basic rule book describing a turn. It states the following:

"UNITS
Models move and fight in units, made up of one or more models." p.176 BRB

I see this to following the same rules as if a model advances in a unit, the whole unit advances and if a single model has to fall back, the whole unit is considered to have fallen back.

The confusion comes from the fact that the shooting phase only references models individually, and the movement phase also only references models (as far as restrictions go) when directing you to do your basic move.

"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you've moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each movement phase" p.177 BRB

The implication of the movement phase instructions, as written, is that it does not ever actually restrict you from moving model A in unit 1, then model X Y Z in unit 2 then going back to move model B in unit 1 again. Since coherency would be checked when you finish any sort of move, you would then check coherency only when either of the two following conditions were met:
1. All models in a unit are moved.
2. You move less than all models and check coherency at the end of movement phase step, at the same time as deep striking occurs.

Example of how I have been playing: I have 5 Tac marines, 1 with a heavy weapon. I move a bolter carrying Tac marine onto and objective but keep the rest still (cohesion maintained). The heavy weapon gets -1 to hit since his "unit" has moved.

Rules are permissive. They tell you what you can do. Where do the rules allow you to move a part of one unit, then a part of another unit and then go back and move the rest of the first unit?

Penalties based on movement is done on model by model basis. If you move your unit of tac marines, you can elect not to move the model with heavy weapon and it does not suffer -1 hit penalty .
However, do note advance is declared on a unit basis, so if you elected to advance as part of your move, the model with heavy weapon will not be able to shoot even if it did not move.

“Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish.”

I fail to see how that’s unclear. It cannot be interpreted as allowing half a unit, do another, come back to the first. That’s just an entirely incorrect read of the rules.

Pieceocake wrote:


"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you've moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each movement phase" p.177 BRB

The implication of the movement phase instructions, as written, is that it does not ever actually restrict you from moving model A in unit 1, then model X Y Z in unit 2 then going back to move model B in unit 1 again.

The rule you quoted from p117 says otherwise. You are required to pick a unit then move all the models you want to, before picking another unit.

As for the movement penalties, these are assessed on a model-by-model basis. The -1 to hit penalty for firing a heavy weapon, for example, only checks whether the model has moved, bot the unit.

Ghaz wrote:Rules are permissive. They tell you what you can do. Where do the rules allow you to move a part of one unit, then a part of another unit and then go back and move the rest of the first unit?

Slipspace wrote:As for the movement penalties, these are assessed on a model-by-model basis. The -1 to hit penalty for firing a heavy weapon, for example, only checks whether the model has moved, bot the unit.

These answers are both correct. You can't go back to move a unit once it has moved, and penalties for moving are on a model by model basis now.

So to recap the crux of this:
Units are picked to begin movement, which is then enacted on a model to model basis. Once you move onto a different unit, any models that didn't move in the original unit "lost their chance" to move as you are not allowed to pick a unit to move that already moved, even if some models in that unit didn't.
The "unit" is considered to have moved for the purposes of being an eligible unit to pick further in the same phase.

-

Huh. So nobody addressed my original quote
"UNITS
Models move and fight in units, made up of one or more models." p.176 BRB

This part here is what makes the ruling obvious to me. I've only played 8th edition, so I have no knowledge of prior edition rules. Is the model by model -1 to hit penalty an artifact of older editions?

I know shooting says Model by Model (it has to due to units being able to take a range of weapons) but the fact the the first paragraph of rules states that models MOVE and FIGHT in UNITS seems clear that all models in a unit are considered to have moved if one model in a unit moves. The example is that a model 6" away from an enemy can still be considered to be fighting if another model from his unit is within 1" of an enemy model. The fact that this sentence under the UNITS heading says FIGHTING and MOVING are the same, i always took it as moving causes the whole unit to move. Shooting MUST be done model by model, otherwise a heavy weapon would give -1 to the whole unit, etc. That's where the disconnect is.

Rules are permissive. They tell you what you can do. Where do the rules allow you to move a part of one unit, then a part of another unit and then go back and move the rest of the first unit?

"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you've moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each movement phase" p.177 BRB

This rule states that you pick another unit. The rule never restricts you from picking a unit twice, it only restricts you from moving an individual model twice. The reason it works as a Unit by Unit selection is by playing the way I do, where every model is considered to have moved, therefore picking a unit a second time is moot as the models have already moved and cannot move again.

Maybe there was an FAQ I missed, but I thought I dug through the commentary and FAQ's thoroughly...

Pieceocake wrote:
"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you've moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each movement phase" p.177 BRB

What you're suggesting is essentially the same thing as taking back a move in chess, as you are told to move all the units you want to move in a unit before selecting another unit to move with.

On your first point: The unit is considered to have already moved, but individual models in the unit may not have moved. When it comes to shooting, that is on a model by model basis, and you look at whether the specific model has moved.

As to the second point, the rule states that you pick another unit. The rule does not state that you can go back and pick a unit you had previously picked. You have no permission for that.

You're overthinking it. If any model in a unit moves, that unit has moved for the purposes of picking units to move in the movement phase only.

'Moving together as a unit' is referencing that they must remain in coherency, which is again described in its own separate section.

The -1 to hit on Heavy weapons comes from the Heavy weapon type rule (in the Shooting Phase section), and very specifically states that its restricted to that model and weapon only. And shooting is still done Unit by Unit, step 1 of the Shooting Phase.

Yes the rules are somewhat poorly written, and some do rely on a bit of foreknowledge of wargaming rules, and a bit on simple problem solving.

On your first point: The unit is considered to have already moved, but individual models in the unit may not have moved. When it comes to shooting, that is on a model by model basis, and you look at whether the specific model has moved.

As to the second point, the rule states that you pick another unit. The rule does not state that you can go back and pick a unit you had previously picked. You have no permission for that.

That is where we disagree. Another unit means that you can't pick a unit twice in a row. (why would you do that anyway?) but it specifically calls out that no model may be moved more than once a movement phase.

What you're suggesting is essentially the same thing as taking back a move in chess, as you are told to move all the units you want to move in a unit before selecting another unit to move with.

You are equating two things that are NOT the same. I am not suggesting you can go back to a unit and pick a model to move that has already moved. I'm saying you can move an UNMOVED model, because you have stated that the "Unit" hasn't considered to have moved (in order to have your heavy weapon fire without penalty).

I think you avoid this awkwardness by considering models in Units to all move together. it fixes these issues quite simply. (And is stated in the rules to work this way)

Pieceocake wrote:

On your first point: The unit is considered to have already moved, but individual models in the unit may not have moved. When it comes to shooting, that is on a model by model basis, and you look at whether the specific model has moved.

As to the second point, the rule states that you pick another unit. The rule does not state that you can go back and pick a unit you had previously picked. You have no permission for that.

That is where we disagree. Another unit means that you can't pick a unit twice in a row. (why would you do that anyway?) but it specifically calls out that no model may be moved more than once a movement phase.

What you're suggesting is essentially the same thing as taking back a move in chess, as you are told to move all the units you want to move in a unit before selecting another unit to move with.

You are equating two things that are NOT the same. I am not suggesting you can go back to a unit and pick a model to move that has already moved. I'm saying you can move an UNMOVED model, because you have stated that the "Unit" hasn't considered to have moved (in order to have your heavy weapon fire without penalty).

I think you avoid this awkwardness by considering models in Units to all move together. it fixes these issues quite simply. (And is stated in the rules to work this way)

You can only move models in a unit when you select a unit to move. In order for you to select a unit, you must move ALL the models you want to move in the unit you've selected BEFORE choosing to select another unit to move with. This is very clear.

Like above, you're over thinking the concept of models and units in this game. A unit is equivalent of a piece in chess, where models are the minuscule parts that make up the unit.

Going back to a unit whose's models' have been already moved to re-move the models you haven't moved is akin to changing your mind about how you moved your unit and going back to fix it. You have no permission to reposition your unit after you've finalized your move for the unit (by slecting another unit)

Like above, you're over thinking the concept of models and units in this game. A unit is equivalent of a piece in chess, where models are the minuscule parts that make up the unit.

Again, why do models NOT operate in units when they specifically do a basic move? Units Shoot altogether, they advance altogether, they charge altogether, they fall back altogether, yet even though the game states that units move together EXPLICITLY in the rules I am to believe that they don't move together because heavy weapons get a penalty to firing their weapon when they move? How does that even make sense?

I am treating each unit directly as a chess piece, where when the piece moves all models follow the rule that the unit has moved. Firing a heavy weapon doesn't appear to override this. The heavy weapon rule does not state that the model counts as not having moved when it's unit moves, as long as the model sits still.

Pieceocake wrote:

On your first point: The unit is considered to have already moved, but individual models in the unit may not have moved. When it comes to shooting, that is on a model by model basis, and you look at whether the specific model has moved.

As to the second point, the rule states that you pick another unit. The rule does not state that you can go back and pick a unit you had previously picked. You have no permission for that.

That is where we disagree. Another unit means that you can't pick a unit twice in a row. (why would you do that anyway?) but it specifically calls out that no model may be moved more than once a movement phase.

What you're suggesting is essentially the same thing as taking back a move in chess, as you are told to move all the units you want to move in a unit before selecting another unit to move with.

You are equating two things that are NOT the same. I am not suggesting you can go back to a unit and pick a model to move that has already moved. I'm saying you can move an UNMOVED model, because you have stated that the "Unit" hasn't considered to have moved (in order to have your heavy weapon fire without penalty).

I think you avoid this awkwardness by considering models in Units to all move together. it fixes these issues quite simply. (And is stated in the rules to work this way)

There is no way to make the words you and I both quoted mean what you want them to.

Might be worth accepting consensus... you asked a question and the answers are all in agreement.

Arguing that isn't even the main point, JohnnyHell, its just a logical issue with your side of the argument and why I interpret the rules differently. My main argument is that Moving is done on a unit by unit basis (the same as advancing and fighting etc).

Pieceocake wrote:

Like above, you're over thinking the concept of models and units in this game. A unit is equivalent of a piece in chess, where models are the minuscule parts that make up the unit.

Again, why do models NOT operate in units when they specifically do a basic move? Units Shoot altogether, they advance altogether, they charge altogether, they fall back altogether, yet even though the game states that units move together EXPLICITLY in the rules I am to believe that they don't move together because heavy weapons get a penalty to firing their weapon when they move? How does that even make sense?

I am treating each unit directly as a chess piece, where when the piece moves all models follow the rule that the unit has moved. Firing a heavy weapon doesn't appear to override this. The heavy weapon rule does not state that the model counts as not having moved when it's unit moves, as long as the model sits still.

Because the rules explicitly tell you this:

"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you've moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each movement phase" p.177 BRB

While it may not be as relevant with tac's 6" move, it does come into play when you have to sacrifice the total distance a unit can potentially move for the sake of maintaining coherency and leaving a model stationary, or, not moved for the purpose of firing a heavy weapon without penalty. It's an active decision making (one of the few remaining in the game actually) players need to make.

If we follow your general line of logic of units act on unit-by-unit basis, then a tac squad with HB and 4 boltguns can't shoot as a unit against a enemy that is 25" away since not all models in the unit are in range. You activiate per unit basis, but ensuing action/resolution within each phase is mostly done on model-by-model basis.

For example,
in shooting phase: tLOS and range is checked on a model by model basis.
in charge phase: success of a charge is determined if a single model can make it within 1" of enemy unit
in fight phase: eligibility to swing is checked on a model by model basis (1" of enemy model or 1" of friendly model that is within 1" of enmy model)

"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you've moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each movement phase" p.177 BRB


While it may not be as relevant with tac's 6" move, it does come into play when you have to sacrifice the total distance a unit can potentially move for the sake of maintaining coherency and leaving a model stationary, or, not moved for the purpose of firing a heavy weapon without penalty. It's an active decision making (one of the few remaining in the game actually) players need to make.

If we follow your general line of logic of units act on unit-by-unit basis, then a tac squad with HB and 4 boltguns can't shoot as a unit against a enemy that is 25" away since not all models in the unit are in range. You activiate per unit basis, but ensuing action/resolution within each phase is mostly done on model-by-model basis.

Where do the rules mention that a model does not count as moving when the rest of the unit moves? I can quote the rule that states the opposite:

"UNITS
Models move and fight in units, made up of one or more models." p.176 BRB

Edit:

For example,
in shooting phase: tLOS and range is checked on a model by model basis.
in charge phase: success of a charge is determined if a single model can make it within 1" of enemy unit
in fight phase: range to swing is checked on a model by model basis (1" of enemy model or 1" of friendly model that is within 1" of enmy model)

Correct, because those are actions taken by the models. But these effects apply to the whole unit. Say there is a rhino with troops inside that is just out of range of your boltguns, but in range of your heavy weapon. You shoot with the unit to kill the rhino and its contents disgorge into range of your boltguns. These boltguns did not fire, but count as having fired since their unit was selected and no eligible units were available. You cannot select them again. That is the same principle I am applying to the movement phase. If you move a model in a unit, the unit is considered to have moved. You have to make the tough choice to get the boltugns in range, or fire the heavy weapon more accurately.

Pieceocake wrote:

"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you've moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each movement phase" p.177 BRB


While it may not be as relevant with tac's 6" move, it does come into play when you have to sacrifice the total distance a unit can potentially move for the sake of maintaining coherency and leaving a model stationary, or, not moved for the purpose of firing a heavy weapon without penalty. It's an active decision making (one of the few remaining in the game actually) players need to make.

If we follow your general line of logic of units act on unit-by-unit basis, then a tac squad with HB and 4 boltguns can't shoot as a unit against a enemy that is 25" away since not all models in the unit are in range. You activiate per unit basis, but ensuing action/resolution within each phase is mostly done on model-by-model basis.

Where do the rules mention that a model does not count as moving when the rest of the unit moves? I can quote the rule that states the opposite:

"UNITS
Models move and fight in units, made up of one or more models." p.176 BRB

And that quote means that models are activated on a unit basis, of which is comprised of models?

It appears under large, bold wording "UNITS". It goes on to explain what a unit is - unit is a group of models that act together and not as individual models unless specifically stated so.

And that quote means that models are activated on a unit basis, of which is comprised of models?

It appears under large, bold wording "UNITS". It goes on to explain what a unit is - unit is a group of models that act together and not as individual models unless specifically stated so.

Correct. Where does it state that models in a unit that has moved are not to be considered moving? It appears to state that the unit moves together if it moves, and the move phase allows you to keep models still if you think they are in an appropriate position rather than forcing you to move them at least a tiny bit.

Pieceocake wrote:

And that quote means that models are activated on a unit basis, of which is comprised of models?

It appears under large, bold wording "UNITS". It goes on to explain what a unit is - unit is a group of models that act together and not as individual models unless specifically stated so.

Correct. Where does it state that models in a unit that has moved are not to be considered moving? It appears to state that the unit moves together if it moves, and the move phase allows you to keep models still if you think they are in an appropriate position rather than forcing you to move them at least a tiny bit.

If you go on to read the rest of that excerpt, it explains to you why it is important the rules must establish models act in a group.
you are currently cherry picking words in a paragraph to make your argument.

Battleprimer pg 2:
Tools of War
In order to fight a battle,
you will require a tape
measure and some dice.

So as per rule, I only need a tape measure and some dice to play a game of warhammer 40k. As per rule, I don't need any miniatures depicting my army - infact, I don't need any sort of markers depicting the locations of my units at all! And by "some", for some people this will mean 4 dice, for some it'll mean 9 dice. Who knows?

Is this a legitimate question, or another one of those "look at this rule loophole I found, I'm so edgy" scenarios?

Might be worth accepting consensus... you asked a question and the answers are all in agreement.

So as per rule, I only need a tape measure and some dice to play a game of warhammer 40k. As per rule, I don't need any miniatures depicting my army - infact, I don't need any sort of markers depicting the locations of my units at all! And by "some", for some people this will mean 4 dice, for some it'll mean 9 dice. Who knows?

These types of responses are not helpful to the discussion.

If you go on to read the rest of that excerpt, it explains to you why it is important the rules must establish models act in a group.
you are currently cherry picking words in a paragraph to make your argument.

I picked the relevant part of the paragraph out. The rules explicitly state that units move and fight as one. There are implications for coherency that it describes as well, but that is more of an aside than part of the argument.

What the "Move" action does, is ALLOW all models in a unit to move. In order to be allowed to move, you suffer the penalty of the "Move" action. Nowhere does it say models can have a different action than others in the unit. You must fire all models in a unit, you must advance all models in a unit, you must fight with all models in a unit, you must move with all models in a unit. You must charge with all models in a unit. Units take action together, stated at the very beginning of the rule set.The reason wargear is explicitly called out later is to ensure models react to their actions separately. If a unit moves, only the heavy weapons suffer. If the unit advances only the assault weapons fire. They are clarifications so that mixed units can be taken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Is this a legitimate question, or another one of those "look at this rule loophole I found, I'm so edgy" scenarios?

It is a legitimate question, and the opposite of a loophole(I think moving models in a unit but keep the heavy guy in the back still to avoid the -1 to hit is the loophole). I think people have been interpreting the rule wrong, probably based on other editions.

Your question is actually irrelevant to the issue of the -1 to hit. You need to read the shooting rules, and they refer specifically to the model, not to the unit.

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models
or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery.

It states when you select a unit to move with, the "Move" action is resolved on a model by model basis.

If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase, you
must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn.

The rules for firing heavy weapon cares not if the unit moved, but if the model moved.

Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all
models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot
or charge later that turn.

Rules for advancing states units that advance are ineligible units to be selected for shooting or charging later that turn, not on model-by-model basis.

Your question is actually irrelevant to the issue of the -1 to hit. You need to read the shooting rules, and they refer specifically to the model, not to the unit.

So then I can advance a unit, but as long as I keep my rapid fire and heavy weapons still, they can continue to fire? What if I only move the rapid fire weapons up to their base move? If shooting rules override movement rules as a blanket scenario, then this is what happens.

These are rhetorical questions. ^

Why does a base move action act differently than EVERY other action when it appears that it should act the same way, as the rules are written?

Pieceocake wrote:

Your question is actually irrelevant to the issue of the -1 to hit. You need to read the shooting rules, and they refer specifically to the model, not to the unit.

So then I can advance a unit, but as long as I keep my rapid fire and heavy weapons still, they can continue to fire? What if I only move the rapid fire weapons up to their base move? If shooting rules override movement rules as a blanket scenario, then this is what happens.

These are rhetorical questions. ^

Why does a base move action act differently than EVERY other action when it appears that it should act the same way, as the rules are written?

You seem to not understand the concept of rules treating a unit and models as different things at different points of the rules.

I understand the concept BaconCatBug, I just don't see a rule that says "moving" does not apply to the unit.

Pieceocake wrote:

Your question is actually irrelevant to the issue of the -1 to hit. You need to read the shooting rules, and they refer specifically to the model, not to the unit.

So then I can advance a unit, but as long as I keep my rapid fire and heavy weapons still, they can continue to fire? What if I only move the rapid fire weapons up to their base move? If shooting rules override movement rules as a blanket scenario, then this is what happens.

These are rhetorical questions. ^

Why does a base move action act differently than EVERY other action when it appears that it should act the same way, as the rules are written?

Models move and take penalties on a 1:1 basis, but it's their UNIT that is considered to be selected to move (and thus cannot be selected again later) and is considered to have Advanced.
UNITs that have Advanced consider all models to have done so, even if they didn't.
If the unit didn't Advance, only the models that actually moved than potential penalties for doing so.

-

Pieceocake wrote:

Your question is actually irrelevant to the issue of the -1 to hit. You need to read the shooting rules, and they refer specifically to the model, not to the unit.

So then I can advance a unit, but as long as I keep my rapid fire and heavy weapons still, they can continue to fire? What if I only move the rapid fire weapons up to their base move? If shooting rules override movement rules as a blanket scenario, then this is what happens.

These are rhetorical questions. ^

Why does a base move action act differently than EVERY other action when it appears that it should act the same way, as the rules are written?

It depends on what they want to fire. They couldn't fire pistols or grenades (or rapid fire or heavy weapons). You can fire assault weapons due to language specifically for the assault weapons.

"A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn."

Declaring the advance puts the restriction above on the unit. The wording on assault weapons overrides this specifically for assault weapons, but not for any other weapons. (Though, as I'm sure BCB will point out, technically RAW breaks down because you don't have permission to select the unit that will be firing if it advanced, even though the models have permission to fire assault weapons. That's a different story, however...)