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Made in us
[DCM]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

Knowing about quantum mechanics, at a quantum level, breaks quantum mechanics

This really messes with my head. Makes me believe in magic, really, or that this is all some sort of poorly-designed thought experiment that we're all in.


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Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






This article may or may not be confusing, but I won't know until I read it. And once I read it and find it to be confusing, it will remain confusing no matter how many times I read it again. Or not confusing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/19 19:04:22


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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






All just points to no intelligent design :p

Seriously. Nobody could design anything quite this badly.

   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All just points to no intelligent design :p

Seriously. Nobody could design anything quite this badly.
Intelligent design created the Razorgor: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Beastmen-Razorgor

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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

I didn't understand it but it doesn't bother me.

Too old to care.

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Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All just points to no intelligent design :p

Seriously. Nobody could design anything quite this badly.

I think quantum mechanics point more to God having been drunk during one of those days in which he created the universe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/19 19:19:30


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Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






It's a problem of 3D perception in a universe with more than three dimensions. Niel Degrasse Tyson has a nice YouTube interview about it:




The problem isn't the universe, the problem is us, we can only see part of it.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

It's because during M2 the warp is actually fairly calm, but even so warp/reality interference can occur at the most sub microscopic levels.

basically....

AliensDaemons!!
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






Isn't that quantum mechanics in a nutshell though?

The more you think about it, the angrier it makes you feel?



   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Ehhh - just take comfort in knowing that none of this matters and will never affect you. There are some real logical paradoxes going on in quantum mechanics right now. I am not a genius but I think we have some very fundamental things wrong right now. We still don't know what causes gravity...but we are looking for a theory of everything. Seems premature.

That data we are getting from study is just so absurd that it might as well be static. These guys will literally tell you that empty space is actually full of gigantic antimatter explosions but at the same time it is not...

Plus they just can't get over the fact that space is flat - meaning the universe can not be infinite. Their heads are in the clouds man.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/19 21:53:06


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

 Xenomancers wrote:
Plus they just can't get over the fact that space is flat - meaning the universe can not be infinite. Their heads are in the clouds man.


If you look close enough to can easily see the curvature of the Universe; silly Flat Space theorists.

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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh - just take comfort in knowing that none of this matters and will never affect you. There are some real logical paradoxes going on in quantum mechanics right now. I am not a genius but I think we have some very fundamental things wrong right now. We still don't know what causes gravity...but we are looking for a theory of everything. Seems premature.

That data we are getting from study is just so absurd that it might as well be static. These guys will literally tell you that empty space is actually full of gigantic antimatter explosions but at the same time it is not...

Plus they just can't get over the fact that space is flat - meaning the universe can not be infinite. Their heads are in the clouds man.

It does matter. It does affect you (since you, and everything else you can see is made up of atoms, which behave according to quantum mechanics). These are the fundamental forces of the universe. Understanding them is much more important and useful than knowing that the universe is flat and finite, which is mostly useless trivia (and technically, the universe itself is infinite, it is the observable volume that is finite).
Just because it seems absurd does not mean that it is not tot true or not important.

Also, we do have a hypothesis about what causes gravity. Thanks to quantum physics actually. If you want to really understand gravity you will need to look at it on a quantum level.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/19 22:51:09


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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I am not sure if he is being sarcastic about space being flat.

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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Is there a site I can read more about stuff like this but in a much easier to understand way? I've studied a little bit of physics at college, but dropped it and would like to learn a bit more. Spin for example, doesn't seem to really explain what it actually is, just that it can be up or down.
   
Made in hr
Dakka Veteran





Croatia

Though I am of course not an expert on the matter, I lean towards the opinion that certian widely believed parts of physics are simply wrong, including quantum physics. This is because some scientists have seemingly forgoten the most basic philosophical principles in physics. You see, science is founded on the unproveable principle of non contradiction, meaning that if something is contradictory with something else, one of the two statements must be false. Often when talking with people when the subject of physics comes up people say that "science has proven x" even though x would break the principle of non contradiction, and if it did then that would mean that science itself is false, and if that were the case then the original statement also couldn't have been proven by science.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Well, yes. Ask a quantum physicist or a cosmologist and they'll agree; relativity and quantum mechanics are both "wrong", in that they contradict one another. The fact that they're wrong is what keeps them in a job.

However, they both do exceedingly well ad predicting things within their "area", so any theory that is "right" will need to agree with quantum mechanics on the very small scale and with relativity on the large. Like how Newtonian mechanics is wrong at high velocities, but is a very good approximation to relativity at lower speeds.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh - just take comfort in knowing that none of this matters and will never affect you. There are some real logical paradoxes going on in quantum mechanics right now. I am not a genius but I think we have some very fundamental things wrong right now. We still don't know what causes gravity...but we are looking for a theory of everything. Seems premature.

That data we are getting from study is just so absurd that it might as well be static. These guys will literally tell you that empty space is actually full of gigantic antimatter explosions but at the same time it is not...

Plus they just can't get over the fact that space is flat - meaning the universe can not be infinite. Their heads are in the clouds man.


I thought large amounts of mass creates gravity, that's why large objects like stars, planets, etc are able to pull things towards them. I think even small objects still have gravitational pull it's just it's so small that's mostly unnoticeable.
   
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Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Quantum Theory: A Very Short Introduction

This should give you a good overview of Quantum Theory.

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Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Anyone who claims to have studied Quantum physics and also claims to understand it is lying.

Quantum mechanics, OTOH, is the dreams that stuff is made of.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





FIrst of all, this article (the proper source one, not the linked one) is not an experimental result, it is merely a thought experiment, in which authors themselves point out, that the "setup" they propose is unrealistic. From all my experience with thought experiments within philosophy, they are usually similar in their value to contemplating division by zero 'paradoxes' in high school level math course.

In this very case, two probable causes for such "mind bending result" exist: one pointed out in the paper, that quantum level of description has upper scale level of aplicability, and that is in line with what majority of quantum physicist actually agree with, as superposition and entanglement have not yet been observed in macroscopic systems, and thus nothing new or mind bending at all The second one is poor design of this thought experiment itself, based on assumptions, that isolating individual observers and connecting them all to the same quantum state is even doable in the first place.

The paper thus seem to be a typical "we need to publish anything to not lose the grant" exercise in futility.

But it is very low on my list of the most invalid thought experiments, the highest scoring to date are "Mary's room", "Chinese room" and most of all the reasoning behind validity of p-zombies as an argument in discussion about qualia and so called "hard problem" of consciousness. While all of those are unrelated to quantum physics they nicely show how prevalent such flawed tools of reasoning are in phiilosophy. And do remember how long it took humanity to deal with Achilles and his tortoise...
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am not sure if he is being sarcastic about space being flat.

No I mean it is flat the literal geometric sense as in - not curved. The geometry of the universe is Euclidean - based on all the data collected. Yet - ever "major" theory involving the "shape" of the universe is non Euclidean.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am not a genius but I think we have some very fundamental things wrong right now. We still don't know what causes gravity...but we are looking for a theory of everything. Seems premature.

This is where I'm at, in the sense that we almost certainly have some stuff very, very wrong.

One of the coolest classes I had in college was a "History of Science" class, where the professor went through universally accepted theories that were absolutely, 100% wrong (but made complete sense to people / were an explanation for a phenomenon... just not the right one!).

I think things like dark matter should fall into this category. It explains something, but is it the right explanation?

It will be very interesting to look back years from now and see if our theories look quaint, just like those from the past do

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/20 13:43:59


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Cheesecat wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh - just take comfort in knowing that none of this matters and will never affect you. There are some real logical paradoxes going on in quantum mechanics right now. I am not a genius but I think we have some very fundamental things wrong right now. We still don't know what causes gravity...but we are looking for a theory of everything. Seems premature.

That data we are getting from study is just so absurd that it might as well be static. These guys will literally tell you that empty space is actually full of gigantic antimatter explosions but at the same time it is not...

Plus they just can't get over the fact that space is flat - meaning the universe can not be infinite. Their heads are in the clouds man.


I thought large amounts of mass creates gravity, that's why large objects like stars, planets, etc are able to pull things towards them. I think even small objects still have gravitational pull it's just it's so small that's mostly unnoticeable.

We know that things that have mass create gravity. We don't know why. We don't know if it's a particle we haven't discovered. We don't know it's relation to other forces. Plus at the quantum level - gravity basically doesn't exist. We know very little about it.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Power Elephant wrote:
Though I am of course not an expert on the matter, I lean towards the opinion that certian widely believed parts of physics are simply wrong, including quantum physics. This is because some scientists have seemingly forgoten the most basic philosophical principles in physics. You see, science is founded on the unproveable principle of non contradiction, meaning that if something is contradictory with something else, one of the two statements must be false. Often when talking with people when the subject of physics comes up people say that "science has proven x" even though x would break the principle of non contradiction, and if it did then that would mean that science itself is false, and if that were the case then the original statement also couldn't have been proven by science.

Contradictions, or rather seeming contradictions, are not necessarily false though. That is a fallacy. Just because something appears contradictory doesn't mean that it actually is. The assumption that widely believed parts of physics are "simply wrong" is quite frankly an insult to the scientific community. All widely believed parts of physics have been thoroughly tested and verified through the scientific method, so what you are essentially saying is "the scientific method is wrong". Which would invalidate all science.

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 RiTides wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am not a genius but I think we have some very fundamental things wrong right now. We still don't know what causes gravity...but we are looking for a theory of everything. Seems premature.

This is where I'm at, in the sense that we almost certainly have some stuff very, very wrong.

One of the coolest classes I had in college was a "History of Science" class, where the professor went through universally accepted theories that were absolutely, 100% wrong (but made complete sense to people / were an explanation for a phenomenon... just not the right one!).

I think things like dark matter should fall into this category. It explains something, but is it the right explanation?

It will be very interesting to look back years from now and see if our theories look quaint, just like those from the past do


I'm sure we will make some pretty amazing discoveries in the next 50 years that will have a dramatic affect on how we view the universe and I doubt it looks anything like the current popular theories suggest. Just looking at the history of astro physics, itis a given.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in au
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





I don't click on links in topics but from the title maybe the universe hates you (or more to the point you hate yourself). Perception of the universe and its molecules can affect being, maybe hippyish, but I believe perception of life affects life, perception of being affects being. You are what you are, you can be what can imagine.

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 Avatar 720 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Plus they just can't get over the fact that space is flat - meaning the universe can not be infinite. Their heads are in the clouds man.


If you look close enough to can easily see the curvature of the Universe; silly Flat Space theorists.

LOL. That is a good one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh - just take comfort in knowing that none of this matters and will never affect you. There are some real logical paradoxes going on in quantum mechanics right now. I am not a genius but I think we have some very fundamental things wrong right now. We still don't know what causes gravity...but we are looking for a theory of everything. Seems premature.

That data we are getting from study is just so absurd that it might as well be static. These guys will literally tell you that empty space is actually full of gigantic antimatter explosions but at the same time it is not...

Plus they just can't get over the fact that space is flat - meaning the universe can not be infinite. Their heads are in the clouds man.

It does matter. It does affect you (since you, and everything else you can see is made up of atoms, which behave according to quantum mechanics). These are the fundamental forces of the universe. Understanding them is much more important and useful than knowing that the universe is flat and finite, which is mostly useless trivia (and technically, the universe itself is infinite, it is the observable volume that is finite).
Just because it seems absurd does not mean that it is not tot true or not important.

Also, we do have a hypothesis about what causes gravity. Thanks to quantum physics actually. If you want to really understand gravity you will need to look at it on a quantum level.

"and technically, the universe itself is infinite"
How do we suppose that though?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/20 14:16:24


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






 Xenomancers wrote:

"and technically, the universe itself is infinite"
How do we suppose that though?


I think he just means it in the symantics sense, that all of space and time and their contents makes the universe and anything discovered beyond those bounds that still meet that rule would expand the definition of the term, and what we previously believed to be the entire universe would get a new name.

Language is fickle though, the opposite could also happen.

There are actually different theories for finite and infinite universe models.

   
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Yeah, the universe is infinite by definition. "Universe" literally means "everything", the definition of the universe is that it contains everything, therefore it is literally impossible that something could exist yet not be part of the universe. There is no such thing as "beyond the universe". It is not like there is a border or edge to the universe, which is a common misconception of people who hear about theories about finite/infinite universe, which refers whether the universe has a limited or unlimited volume, not whether it has an edge or not that you could hypothetically go beyond.
It bears mentioning though that these theories are not very solid. A flat, infinite universe is what is currently the most widely accepted theory since it corresponds with what has been observed so far, but the evidence is so scarce that even a single discovery could change that.

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 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah, the universe is infinite by definition. "Universe" literally means "everything", the definition of the universe is that it contains everything, therefore it is literally impossible that something could exist yet not be part of the universe. There is no such thing as "beyond the universe". It is not like there is a border or edge to the universe, which is a common misconception of people who hear about theories about finite/infinite universe, which refers whether the universe has a limited or unlimited volume, not whether it has an edge or not that you could hypothetically go beyond.
It bears mentioning though that these theories are not very solid. A flat, infinite universe is what is currently the most widely accepted theory since it corresponds with what has been observed so far, but the evidence is so scarce that even a single discovery could change that.

"A flat, infinite universe is what is currently the most widely accepted theory since it corresponds with what has been observed so far, but the evidence is so scarce that even a single discovery could change that."
True - we could discover that space is curved in the future but given how large the observable universe is (92 Billion light years across). If we can't detect curvature in a sample that is so large it boggles comprehension - we probably never will. If we did though that would change a lot.

"There is no such thing as "beyond the universe"."
The universe seems to do some strange things if it actually is "everything there is". For instance - it is expanding - in the past it's condense and exploded. Logically I think there must be some kind of void or medium in which the universe exists.



If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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