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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





In the past several years we have seen the rise of MDF terrain and the like. Game mats have also become very popular. Few people would argue that such terrain is superior to resin or plastic terrain. You need only look at Wyrds new plastic terrain to be reminded of how nice terrain can be. I am of course biased. In many instances I view MDF terrain to be the equivalent of playing with cardboard cutouts. Not that it is bad, but why spend the money on minis, when you are playing with cutout buildings? It just seems inconsistent.

Most of us cherish highly detailed resin casts, and beautiful sculpting in the miniatures we buy. However, these values seem to get lost in our purchases of terrain. Is terrain getting the short end of the stick in the hobby?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think so. I mean, you can always make your own terrain, but I think some really thematic, professionally designed terrain can really make your table pop - while crappy little Styrofoam buildings cut by a Tickle-Me Elmo can really diminish the effect of your beautifully painted army.

GW has some really amazing things (I love the Dreadhold and Sectors Mechanicus and Imperialis), but it will cost you. Their modular nature, however, means that the investment will yield many amazing tables. Also, their new investment in making Killzones a thing and including terrain with miniatures means that I've been collecting GW terrain by the boatload over the past few months at a much more acceptable price.

I also like the Wyrdscapes stuff, and would love to see them in person.

I don't think MDF is as bad as you say, but it certainly can be. I've seen some MDF stuff for Infinity that looks amazing. I think MDF is sort of a compromise between sturdy, quality buildings and cheap/easy. I think if MDF could somehow solve the painting issue (MDF absorbs water, so it needs prep before painting, and most MDF buildings seem to be painted with a couple squirts from an airbrush due to a lack of detail in the MDF itself), it would seem much more impressive.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






It's always been like that - we all spend loads on miniatures, then the terrain is whatever we've got lying around.

Partly it's explained by the fact that visually, the scenary is the background - it doesn't need to be as ornate as the miniatures, because the miniatures are what you're focussing on. On the other hand, poor terrain can limit the variety of your gaming. If all you've got are some bits of scatter terrain and some MDF corner ruins, then you're not going to come up with an exciting, interesting battlefield that suggests its own scenarios.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






*looks at GW’s offering. Considers his own collection of the same*

Not in my house it’s not!

   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver






Really? This:


Is as good as a cardboard cutout?

Youre just looking in the wrong places.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





There are some nice cardboard cutouts, don't get me wrong. I even remember a bunker from an old white dwarf. What cardboard cutouts and mdf terrain typically have is large flat surfaces, where they should be 3 dimensional.

In the image you posted, the wreath is flat, as are the things on top of the arch. I want full on 3d with curves, etc.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





If anything, MDF has been the savior of many tables. A lot of people (OP included) seem to paint MDF in a broad brush, because so many small companies have laser-cutting machines now.

There is simple stuff like this:



This kind of stuff is normally cheap, if effective...and can be surprisingly nice when painted up.

However, MDF also means this:



I own an entire table of 4Ground Old West buildings and there is nothing finer available for the setting. Pre-painted, fully detailed interior, swinging doors, hatches, etc.
   
Made in us
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Yeah, sometimes manufacturers try to force stuff into MDF designs that it really isn't suitable for, organic shapes being a prime example, but I reject the premise that MDF is inferior when used for designs it's suitable for, as evidenced by some of the examples already presented.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver








Entirely possible if you get creative, but I think perhaps you just came here to complain about terrain you just don't like for no good reason.

Is terrain lagging behind? No, not really. Terrain is always more fun if you make your own anyway.

Join us on the Phoenix Forum for Bolt Action Tournaments and Much More:
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Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I think the added issue is that the cheaper MDF companies put out super simple stuff (which is, indeed, akin to cardboard cut-outs) and a lot of shops, and tournaments buy that stuff just to get bulk cover on a table. Then they're also put on the table either unpainted or sprayed with a single colour.

Some pictures of Shoot N' Skedaddle mid-game

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


And to top it off, I'm using a mat!

The point is, some companies produce really attractive, really fantastic MDF terrain. Some companies produce really cheap, really lazy MDF. The nice thing is that they cater for all budgets. Resin is expensive as hell compared to MDF and makes large buildings unwieldy, extremely hevay, and you can't match the size of an MDF building with interior walls, etc. (and some companies like 4Ground above provide stuff pre-painted). The bredth of MDF company products is simply too vast to paint them with a single brush.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not sure lagging behind is the right phrase, as laser cutters & 3d printers become cheaper more people are producing products of variable quality, its more of a growing pain as the ones who make good stuff, and there is plenty out there will survive and grow

MDF is fine for some stuff, less so for others, but left unpainted it looks like MDF, 4Ground do well with the base paints on it which helps a lot, even then taking a brush to hide the corners helps a hell of a lot.

its brought a large amount of reasonably priced stuff to the market for those who lack the skills, time or simply inclination to make their own.

real issue with terrain for me is storing and transporting it
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





What leopard said. I'm big into the 3d printing terrain community and I think this is the way it's going as a $230 printer and a $15 spool of plastic will get you some great results. There's some people doing some really high quality stuff with printing and terrain.

Laser cutters are still kind of pricy for a decent one and are high maitnence comparied to a printer so there's a higher barier for entry there as.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I fully agree that 3D printing is the future. It's just still out of the price range for a lot of folks at the moment (and buying pre-printed stuff is currently awfully pricey). 5-10 years from now it'll be "the" way to buy terrain, easily.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I did look at a 3D printer, guy at FLGS has an Eldon 3 IIRC, the terrain it turns out looks ok.

Personally I'd use it to make a masker, clean it up then resin cast them for speed and better surface detail post clean up.

but they are seriously getting there, price is fine, they just take way too long to print - but for a one off master, frankly who cares?

you will probably get a load of garbage along the way, but its probably worth it
   
Made in us
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





Philadelphia PA

IMO any pre-made terrain (3D print, MDF, resin, whatever) is just a starting point and depending on the person building it any material can be serviceable.

MDF will get you a solid building construction but someone who's good with accentuate it with bits, maybe make some modifications and make something really unique. IIRC there was a thread where someone had taken an MDF cargo container and turned it into a shop with the appropriate cut-outs for windows, bits for weapons and other merchandise for sale and a big sign on the top. It looked really good.

So I don't think it's a matter of material, it's a matter of taking the time and creativity to make some cool, unique terrain.


I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Also agree - in fact there is a company in Australia or the UK who does a line of "Tabula Rasa" buildings, which are intentionally blanky MDF structures --- sold for much cheaper than detailed ones. The sole point is to simply be the walls and roof which the players then use to create whatever they want. Add siding, doors, details, etc. It's a really cool concept.

Tabula Rasa by Knights of Dice


One of the biggest pains in making terrain (I do a lot of hand-made terrain as well) is getting the basic structures cut out and assembled. Sometimes getting a simple 90-degree corner of foam-core is frustrating.

Sample of my home-made stuff: (a mad Mordheim build)
Spoiler:

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Elbows wrote:
I fully agree that 3D printing is the future. It's just still out of the price range for a lot of folks at the moment (and buying pre-printed stuff is currently awfully pricey). 5-10 years from now it'll be "the" way to buy terrain, easily.


Agreed. The price is high because of the time to print. You can have something that's only about $5 of plastic take 14 hours to print and then sell it for $50.

Print lines are already really easy to take care of so you wouldn't even know it was printed, most people don't want to spend the 30min doing it or don't know how easy it can be.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I may have to have a look at them buildings, that looks like a very nice ork settlement in the making
   
Made in gb
Xeno-Hating Inquisitorial Excruciator




London

MDF "can" look stunning. It can also look craptastic (Yes, Dark Sphere, I'm looking at your tabletop terrain ...).

I guess everyone has their favourites. Personally, I'd "like" a planet(oid)'s worth of HALO terrain ... but no one really makes it ... so in the mean time, Antenocitis does - IMHO - some of the best pre-coloured SF MDF around ... e.g.



Spoiler tags added! - BrookM

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/26 21:28:08


 
   
Made in gb
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Cloud City, Bespin

I love infinity terrain

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Straight out if the pot, bang it on. What else is there to know?
 DV8 wrote:
Blood Angels Furioso Dreadnought should also be double-fisted.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Is there anyone who doesn't want a Warmill Mega Mansion?

Spoiler:


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Central California

The OP's premise is inherently flawed IMO. The claim terrain lags behind is incorrect. It is out there. What lags behind is the average hobbyist's monetary commitment to terrain. It costs $500+ to field a 40k army and we all grumpily pay it (most, like me, do it for multiple armies). It is a rare bird indeed willing to make a purchase of that size for terrain. Go spend what an Imperial Knight of 2k points costs (flavor of the last few months) on terrain and you will have a nice table.
And as shown multiple times above, MDF gets you what you pay for. I have a set of buildings from Lasercraft (the Err'Loq's refuge) that look great on my desert board. Like the grey plastic minis you buy, they need the same love and attention is all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/23 22:22:18


Keeping the hobby side alive!

I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





@Elbows: that terrain used for Shoot N Skedadle looks outstanding.

@Edwardmyst: I never implied that good terrain did not exist. I cited Wyrd's stuff as an example of good modern terrain. I simply said that many people were not valuing it in their purchases. I found it very strange, in that people spend big bucks on detailed minis, to have them run around some very two dimensional terrain.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority







Yeah... cardboard and MDF terrain looks terrible....

(Miniature Scenery - Mousemuffin does wonderful things in MDF and cardboard. *EDIT* And he posts on these forums.)

The Auld Grump

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 00:19:20


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Central California

@Spaceelf: Reread your post and I apologize for simplifying in my post. In truth we were pretty much on the same page. People don't spend the same on terrain.
2 of the 6-7 players happen to do 80% of the terrain work for my group, with other members donating any terrain they get with a model set (which I admit has grown considerable over a decade plus). That said, I have 5 tables worth of boards and admit openly I am guilty of the same. I don't spend as much as say 20% on terrain I do on models.

Keeping the hobby side alive!

I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Elbows wrote:
Also agree - in fact there is a company in Australia or the UK who does a line of "Tabula Rasa" buildings, which are intentionally blanky MDF structures --- sold for much cheaper than detailed ones. The sole point is to simply be the walls and roof which the players then use to create whatever they want. Add siding, doors, details, etc. It's a really cool concept.



Yeah, the Tabula Rasa stuff makes a really nice base, fits together like a dream, and is good and solid.





I'm also a fan of Plast Craft Games, with their foamed Pvc buildings. Lighter than MDF, and a lot easier to customize.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 01:31:49


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Something to keep in mind many play at flgs/club so terrain they play is somewhat set unless players literally donate terrain to flgs. Which while nice i suspect is not the standard.

But for many they need little terrain of their own. If you only rarely play at home you have less motivation to spend a lot on home terrain

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Building terrain is probably one of my fav aspects of the hobby. It's what I intend to spend most of this week doing.

But to answer the OP, I do think that terrain is often left behind.

There's a pic I keep in my gallery here for discussions such as this, and whilst it something I bring out more to point out inadequacies in table coverage, it is an example of some terrain that isn't the best:




There's also this, from the "Post a pic of your last game" thread:



I post this not to pick on tneva, but more to display something I said to him at the time he posted it: It's really random! A lot of the individual pieces are nice, but they're placed haphazardly and there's no cohesion to the board's theme whatsoever.

I recently purchased both of these:




These are fantastic sets that completely change how good a table can look, especially when paired with their matching mats. I've also tapped into GF9's ongoing line of stuff, getting big rocks, bigger rocks, more rocks, ponds and rivers. And I have loads of trees, both the ones GW used to sell by the bag back in the day, and some of the GF9 trees as well.

This is on top of my endless Cities of Death, Sector Mechanicus and other types of terrain.

It all stems from when I started, where the "buildings" I had were the empty tank and starter boxes, and my ruins were just the cardboard ones that came in the 2nd Ed starter. Necromunda was huge boon (as you can tell) as far as 40K terrain went, but it lacks walls like proper buildings, so it's pretty, sure (and very bright!), but it's not the best terrain for 40K in the long run.

That's why I've invested so much in terrain. It shouldn't overshadow the miniatures, but when it's done right it looks really impressive.

Terrain is 100% with the investment of time and money. I'm a member of a couple of terrain groups on Facebook, and get a lot of inspiration for terrain from Winters SEO over on YouTube and the batreps he puts up (he was the final voice that convinced me to buy a whole stack of Gamemat.eu stuff).

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It's always been like that - we all spend loads on miniatures, then the terrain is whatever we've got lying around.
Speak for yourself!!!!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 04:49:34


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Elbows wrote:
I think the added issue is that the cheaper MDF companies put out super simple stuff (which is, indeed, akin to cardboard cut-outs) and a lot of shops, and tournaments buy that stuff just to get bulk cover on a table. Then they're also put on the table either unpainted or sprayed with a single colour.

Some pictures of Shoot N' Skedaddle mid-game

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


And to top it off, I'm using a mat!

The point is, some companies produce really attractive, really fantastic MDF terrain. Some companies produce really cheap, really lazy MDF. The nice thing is that they cater for all budgets. Resin is expensive as hell compared to MDF and makes large buildings unwieldy, extremely hevay, and you can't match the size of an MDF building with interior walls, etc. (and some companies like 4Ground above provide stuff pre-painted). The bredth of MDF company products is simply too vast to paint them with a single brush.


Very nice stuff. You only need minis of Bud Spencer & Terence Hill to start a proper bar room brawl.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 H.B.M.C. wrote:

That's why I've invested so much in terrain. It shouldn't overshadow the miniatures, but when it's done right it looks really impressive.


But then again:

1) not much effect game wise except h2h immunity for fliers. No real los blocking
2) ditto. Gunlines and flyers are yey yey. Foot based assault armies go "blergh" as they have no real protection from shooting so only thing terrain provides is flying units easy escape route.
3) Again looks pretty much loooots of clear lines under all those gateways.
4) ditto

With 8th ed you need some serious walls around and walk paths that are high as main terrain piece is seriously bad terrain layout. No protection from shooting, any unit with keyword fly is king.

Looks pretty, not that playable with 8th ed rules. Might work better in horus heresy at least.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
 
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