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We know the Emperor was unaware of the the HH due to the warp storms brought about by Chaos, but what about Prospero, it was nowhere near Istavaan and there were no warpstorms that they 6th had to travel through. Magnus had warded rooms where the Emperor couldn't see but he wasn't constantly in them, surely the Emperor could have seen what he was planning.

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

The Emperor's powers are pretty poorly explained and tend to vary depending on the needs of the plot. We know he is prescient and we can assume he can probably use his powers to see what's going on elsewhere in the galaxy as this is something Magnus has also done. However, we can also probably assume the Emperor doesn't walk around being constantly tuned in to what's going on everywhere in the galaxy. The Emperor also seems to assume complete loyalty from the Primarchs so probably doesn't feel the need to check in on them, especially after the severe warning he gave out at Nikea.

So maybe he could have found out what Magnus was up to if he was so inclined? We can't know for sure. Seems like he was too busy with other things to check in on Magnus though.

 Corennus wrote:
Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

I'm talking about him seeing the present not the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
The Emperor's powers are pretty poorly explained and tend to vary depending on the needs of the plot. We know he is prescient and we can assume he can probably use his powers to see what's going on elsewhere in the galaxy as this is something Magnus has also done. However, we can also probably assume the Emperor doesn't walk around being constantly tuned in to what's going on everywhere in the galaxy. The Emperor also seems to assume complete loyalty from the Primarchs so probably doesn't feel the need to check in on them, especially after the severe warning he gave out at Nikea.

So maybe he could have found out what Magnus was up to if he was so inclined? We can't know for sure. Seems like he was too busy with other things to check in on Magnus though.

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The Emperor isn't omnipotent, it's possiable he just didn't see it, it happens

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

How's so? He needed half the marines to fight other half. However he isn't going to start ordering that so he needs them to start that on themselves.

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

Uh, what? I'm not sure what you think I'm even saying here. I don't think he's omnipotent and I've already pointed out the limitations on his prescience. I'm not saying he should have known at all. What I'm saying is it's possible he could have found out if he wanted to but he had no real reason to want to do it, and the plot requires Magnus to do what he did. Whether Nikaea was right or wrong isn't really the point. It's the Emperor's assumption that he didn't need to check up on Magnus or the other Primarchs who spoke out in favour of retaining the librarians that is indicative of a flaw in the Emperor's character.

The Emperor is a dick

Slipspace wrote:
It's the Emperor's assumption that he didn't need to check up on Magnus or the other Primarchs who spoke out in favour of retaining the librarians that is indicative of a flaw in the Emperor's character.

That's your assumption. We don't know that he would never have checked up on Magnus eventually. We don't know that he didn't flat-out intend Magnus to disobey the Nikea judgement. Maybe Magnus disobeying the Nikea judgement and being sanctioned for it was supposed to be the trigger for the limited inter-legion war the Emperor seemed (according to Malcador) to want to happen at some point. Maybe the only thing the Emperor 'missed' was that Horus and a bunch of other primarchs had already been corrupted, so that any inter-legion war would inevitably become a 50:50 split.

Doesn't the Emperor state in one of the HH books that his foresight gets weaker the more temporal power he gains? Something like "You cannot be both all-powerful and all-knowing at the same time"? That would imply that he has trouble seeing the eventual results of those chains of causality he sets in motion himself, which would make the actions of his creations (the primarchs) very difficult for him to foresee.

 Duskweaver wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
It's the Emperor's assumption that he didn't need to check up on Magnus or the other Primarchs who spoke out in favour of retaining the librarians that is indicative of a flaw in the Emperor's character.

That's your assumption. We don't know that he would never have checked up on Magnus eventually. We don't know that he didn't flat-out intend Magnus to disobey the Nikea judgement. Maybe Magnus disobeying the Nikea judgement and being sanctioned for it was supposed to be the trigger for the limited inter-legion war the Emperor seemed (according to Malcador) to want to happen at some point. Maybe the only thing the Emperor 'missed' was that Horus and a bunch of other primarchs had already been corrupted, so that any inter-legion war would inevitably become a 50:50 split.

Doesn't the Emperor state in one of the HH books that his foresight gets weaker the more temporal power he gains? Something like "You cannot be both all-powerful and all-knowing at the same time"? That would imply that he has trouble seeing the eventual results of those chains of causality he sets in motion himself, which would make the actions of his creations (the primarchs) very difficult for him to foresee.

Quite possibly correct, though currently not really even hinted at in anything I've read. Certainly plausible, though I'm not sure the other Legions would have been that bothered about the Space Wolves being used to sanction the Thousand Sons after they clearly disobeyed the Emperor's direct order. It's heavily suggested such a thing has happened before and the Wolves were chosen as the executioners and the other Legions seem fine with that. I think the general question of what the Emperor really planned to do with the Legions after the Crusade is currently one of the more interesting open questions in the background. It paints the loyalist Legions, and particularly their Primarchs, in a much more tragic light if the plan was always for them to be exterminated had the Heresy not happened.

The original question was about why the Emperor didn't see what Magnus was planning though, and the reason pretty much comes down to "can't see everything all the time".

 Duskweaver wrote:
Doesn't the Emperor state in one of the HH books that his foresight gets weaker the more temporal power he gains? Something like "You cannot be both all-powerful and all-knowing at the same time"? That would imply that he has trouble seeing the eventual results of those chains of causality he sets in motion himself, which would make the actions of his creations (the primarchs) very difficult for him to foresee.

Yes - the one with the navigator hiding on Terra, isn't it?

beast_gts wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
Doesn't the Emperor state in one of the HH books that his foresight gets weaker the more temporal power he gains? Something like "You cannot be both all-powerful and all-knowing at the same time"? That would imply that he has trouble seeing the eventual results of those chains of causality he sets in motion himself, which would make the actions of his creations (the primarchs) very difficult for him to foresee.

Yes - the one with the navigator hiding on Terra, isn't it?

Yup he told Kai Zulane that

“I know some people think me omnipotent. But there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing” “You can't be both at the same time”"

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
“I know some people think me omnipotent. But there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing” “You can't be both at the same time”"

And with that, I think you just answered your own thread.

-

Slipspace wrote:
I'm not sure the other Legions would have been that bothered about the Space Wolves being used to sanction the Thousand Sons after they clearly disobeyed the Emperor's direct order.

Jaghatai Khan and the White Scars very nearly joined Horus when they heard about it. So that's one legion that was certainly 'bothered'.

 Galef wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
“I know some people think me omnipotent. But there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing” “You can't be both at the same time”"

And with that, I think you just answered your own thread.

-

Not really, he was talking about being able to see the future, not the present when he said that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
I'm not sure the other Legions would have been that bothered about the Space Wolves being used to sanction the Thousand Sons after they clearly disobeyed the Emperor's direct order.

Jaghatai Khan and the White Scars very nearly joined Horus when they heard about it. So that's one legion that was certainly 'bothered'.

Some actually did.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

The emperor treated the primarchs too well ?

You mean like violently tearing Angron from his slave army leaving them to die ?

Knowing that this would create huge problems later when there where multiple other actions he could have taken ?

Angron has a legitimate beef with the Emperor perhaps the only traitor Primarch to do so ?

Basically letting a violent physchopath in Kurze run free ?

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

The emperor treated the primarchs too well ?

You mean like violently tearing Angron from his slave army leaving them to die ?

Knowing that this would create huge problems later when there where multiple other actions he could have taken ?

Angron has a legitimate beef with the Emperor perhaps the only traitor Primarch to do so ?

Basically letting a violent physchopath in Kurze run free ?

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

Not really, the Emperor wouldn't have known how far Angron had fallen due to the butchers nails. It was fethed up, but only from Angrons perspective. Plus Angrons choice in dying with his brothers and sisters was two fold, he wanted the honour, but Angron was also suicidal because of his butchers nails. He isn't the most rational fellow. Lorgar is the only one the Emperor wronged and intentionally wronged, though Lorgar did have to be sanctioned, he wasn't being any useful part of the crusade. Did he go too far, yes but I have little sympathy for Lorgar after how he treated his own sons. Same with most of the traitors, basically killing the sons they 'thought' wouldn't follow them, not just wouldn't follow, thought. They killed them for imagined thought crimes, Lorgar was the worst though, what he cowardly did to Argal Tal and the Gal Vorbak.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

The emperor treated the primarchs too well ?

You mean like violently tearing Angron from his slave army leaving them to die ?

Knowing that this would create huge problems later when there where multiple other actions he could have taken ?

Angron has a legitimate beef with the Emperor perhaps the only traitor Primarch to do so ?

Basically letting a violent physchopath in Kurze run free ?

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

Not really, the Emperor wouldn't have known how far Angron had fallen due to the butchers nails. It was fethed up, but only from Angrons perspective. Plus Angrons choice in dying with his brothers and sisters was two fold, he wanted the honour, but Angron was also suicidal because of his butchers nails. He isn't the most rational fellow. Lorgar is the only one the Emperor wronged and intentionally wronged, though Lorgar did have to be sanctioned, he wasn't being any useful part of the crusade. Did he go too far, yes but I have little sympathy for Lorgar after how he treated his own sons.

The emperor knew that the nails would eventually kill Angron and the emperor knew that they could not be removed and that they would degrade Angron over time.

This is a point mentioned in multiple novels

The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him.

The emperor made the worst choice out of multiple options and practically guaranteed that Angron would turn on him.

Angron was rational when the Nails allowed him to be .

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

The emperor treated the primarchs too well ?

You mean like violently tearing Angron from his slave army leaving them to die ?

Knowing that this would create huge problems later when there where multiple other actions he could have taken ?

Angron has a legitimate beef with the Emperor perhaps the only traitor Primarch to do so ?

Basically letting a violent physchopath in Kurze run free ?

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

Not really, the Emperor wouldn't have known how far Angron had fallen due to the butchers nails. It was fethed up, but only from Angrons perspective. Plus Angrons choice in dying with his brothers and sisters was two fold, he wanted the honour, but Angron was also suicidal because of his butchers nails. He isn't the most rational fellow. Lorgar is the only one the Emperor wronged and intentionally wronged, though Lorgar did have to be sanctioned, he wasn't being any useful part of the crusade. Did he go too far, yes but I have little sympathy for Lorgar after how he treated his own sons.

The emperor knew that the nails would eventually kill Angron and the emperor knew that they could not be removed and that they would degrade Angron over time.

This is a point mentioned in multiple novels

The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him.

The emperor made the worst choice out of multiple options and practically guaranteed that Angron would turn on him.

Angron was rational when the Nails allowed him to be .

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

"The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him." I don't know what you mean by this.

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point.

The Emperor was a terrible father and a lot of the heresy happening comes down to his basic inability to understand that his kids had feelings, doubts and hopes that didn't play directly into his master plan. Curze and Angron should have never been allowed to head their legions. Lorgar, Horus and Magnus would have stayed loyal if the Emperor had been honest with them about how the universe works and what the Emperor was doing on Terra. Basically if he bothered to hug his kids once and while, things would have been a lot more shiny.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The Emperor was a terrible father and a lot of the heresy happening comes down to his basic inability to understand that his kids had feelings, doubts and hopes that didn't play directly into his master plan. Curze and Angron should have never been allowed to head their legions. Lorgar, Horus and Magnus would have stayed loyal if the Emperor had been honest with them about how the universe works and what the Emperor was doing on Terra. Basically if he bothered to hug his kids once and while, things would have been a lot more shiny.

Complete conjecture, you'd have to prove the Heresy would not have happened if he pampered the Primarchs in order for that to be true.

The Emperor told them enough about the nature of the warp:

you saw, Garviel. It is a secret thing, known to a very few, though the Emperor, beloved of all, knows more than any of us. A secret, Garviel, more than any other secret we are keeping to-day. Can you keep it? I’ll share it, for it will soothe your mind, but I need you to keep it solemnly.’‘I will,’ Loken said.The Warmaster took another sip. ‘It was the warp, Garviel.’‘The... warp?’‘Of course it was. We know the power of the warp and the cha-os it contains. We’ve seen it change men. We’ve seen the wretched things that infest its dark dimensions. I know you have. On Erridas. On Syrinx. On the bloody coast of Tassilon. There are entities in the warp that we might easily mistake for daemons.’‘Sir, I...’ Loken began. ‘I have been trained in the study of the warp. I am well-prepared to face its horrors. I have fought the foul things that pour forth from the gates of the Empyrean, and yes, the warp can seep into a man and transmute him. I have seen this happen, but only in psykers. It is the risk they take. Not in Astartes.’‘Do you understand the full mechanism of the warp, Garviel?’ Horus asked. He raised the glass to the nearest light to examine the colour of the wine.‘No, sir. I don’t pretend to.’‘Neither do I, my son. Neither does the Emperor, beloved by all. Not entirely. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth, and we deal in truths above all else. The warp is a vital tool to us, a means of communication and transport. Without it, there would be no Imperium of Man, for there would be no quick bridges between the stars. We use it, and we harness it, but we have no absolute control over it. It is a wild thing that tolerates our pres-ence, but brooks no mastery. There is power in the warp, funda-mental power, not good, nor evil, but elemental and anathema to us. It is a tool we use at our own risk.’The Warmaster finished his glass and set it down. ‘Spirits. Daemons. Those words imply a greater power, a fiendish intellect and a purpose. An evil archetype with cosmic schemes and stratagems. They imply a god, or gods, at work behind the scenes. They imply the very supernatural state that we have tak-en great pains, through the light of science, to shake off. They imply sorcery and a palpable evil.’He looked across at Loken. ‘Spirits. Daemons. The supernatu-ral. Sorcery. These are words we have allowed to fall out of use, for we dislike the connotations, but they are just words. What you saw today... call it a spirit. Call it a daemon. The words serve well enough. Using them does not deny the clinical truth of the universe as man understands it. There can be daemons in a secular cosmos, Garviel. lust so long as we understand the use of the word.’‘Meaning the warp?’‘Meaning the warp. Why coin new terms for its horrors when we have a bounty of old words that might suit us just as well? We use the words “alien” and “xenos” to describe the inhuman filth we encounter in some locales. The creatures of the warp are just “aliens” too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcerous to us. Super-natural, if you will. So let’s use all those lost words for them... daemons, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to re-member is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great daemons and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy. Orks. Gykon. Tushepta. Keylekid. Eldar. Jokaero... and the creatures of the warp, which are stranger than all for they exhibit powers that are bizarre to us because of the otherness of their nature. - Horus Rising.

This isn't that hard to show. What was the primary cause of Lorgar falling was the Emperor, rather than explain what the Chaos Gods are and his plan to try and starve them out instead lets Lorgar go deep down the religious rabbit hole before rebuking and embarrassing him, while still not explaining why he was doing any of this. He tried to pass off demons as weird xenos when chaos's nature and power is something completely different than that.

Much of Horus's betray comes from his feelings of being abandoned and feeling he will be discarded at the end of the crusades. Those mostly stem from the Emperor bailing on him to work on the webway and again, not explaining what he was doing. Magnus also probably would not have destroyed the most important project for man kinds future if he knew about it.

It's not pampering them, it's called not being a CW show and keeping secrets for the sake of keeping secrets.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
This isn't that hard to show. What was the primary cause of Lorgar falling was the Emperor, rather than explain what the Chaos Gods are and his plan to try and starve them out instead lets Lorgar go deep down the religious rabbit hole before rebuking and embarrassing him, while still not explaining why he was doing any of this. He tried to pass off demons as weird xenos when chaos's nature and power is something completely different than that.

Much of Horus's betray comes from his feelings of being abandoned and feeling he will be discarded at the end of the crusades. Those mostly stem from the Emperor bailing on him to work on the webway and again, not explaining what he was doing. Magnus also probably would not have destroyed the most important project for man kinds future if he knew about it.

It's not pampering them, it's called not being a CW show and keeping secrets for the sake of keeping secrets.

yes chaos are powerful but IMHO they're no more gods then they are Xenos.

"Master of Mankind" comes closest to addressing these issues. When examining Angron, the Emperor admonishes Arkhan Land that he is not a father grieving for a wounded son. He is a craftsman annoyed that his tool has been damaged. He considers putting Angron out of his misery but decides that a damaged Primarch was better than no Primarch at all.

Another point he makes to Ra is that his view of the future is like a sailor viewing a distant shore. He can see where he is going but there is a lot going on beneath the waves he cannot see.

He also admits that he considered destroying the Primarchs rather than letting Chaos scatter them as he knew there was a risk of them being corrupted. But he needed them for the Crusade as there was a real risk that the Crusade would grind to a halt and be bogged down without generals of the calibre of the Primarchs to lead it. The Imperium would have been still-born.

The impression given in Mom is of a leader whose plans have been disrupted and is struggling to make the best of a bad situation.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The Emperor was a terrible father and a lot of the heresy happening comes down to his basic inability to understand that his kids had feelings, doubts and hopes that didn't play directly into his master plan.

The Emperor never expected the Primarchs to revere him as father-figure. My guess is he intended to train them so their mindset was similar to the Custodes. Instead of loyal and intelligent lieutenants, he got a bunch of damaged man-children with assorted hang-ups and serious daddy-issues.


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godking wrote:

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

We don't know for sure that is what happened. Perhaps the Emperor had been trying to correct Lorgar for years before he finally lost his patience and resorted to Monarchia.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

The emperor treated the primarchs too well ?

You mean like violently tearing Angron from his slave army leaving them to die ?

Knowing that this would create huge problems later when there where multiple other actions he could have taken ?

Angron has a legitimate beef with the Emperor perhaps the only traitor Primarch to do so ?

Basically letting a violent physchopath in Kurze run free ?

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

Not really, the Emperor wouldn't have known how far Angron had fallen due to the butchers nails. It was fethed up, but only from Angrons perspective. Plus Angrons choice in dying with his brothers and sisters was two fold, he wanted the honour, but Angron was also suicidal because of his butchers nails. He isn't the most rational fellow. Lorgar is the only one the Emperor wronged and intentionally wronged, though Lorgar did have to be sanctioned, he wasn't being any useful part of the crusade. Did he go too far, yes but I have little sympathy for Lorgar after how he treated his own sons.

The emperor knew that the nails would eventually kill Angron and the emperor knew that they could not be removed and that they would degrade Angron over time.

This is a point mentioned in multiple novels

The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him.

The emperor made the worst choice out of multiple options and practically guaranteed that Angron would turn on him.

Angron was rational when the Nails allowed him to be .

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

"The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him." I don't know what you mean by this.

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point.

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

Which was a short time after he was found

The emperor knew the Nails would kill Angron but he decided to use Angron for as long as he could.

I don't know what you mean by this.

The emperor had Angrons Legion with him when he found Angron on Nuceria he could have made them make planet fall and help Angron or he could have let Angron die as he wanted too both better choices then forcibly abducting Angron and guaranteeing that Angron would rebel

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

The Emperor abducting Angron was the main reason for Angron's hatred of the emperor this is clearly explained in Betrayer.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point

He knew he just did'nt care as long as he could use Angron for his own ends.

godking wrote:

The emperor had Angrons Legion with him when he found Angron on Nuceria he could have made them make planet fall and help Angron or he could have let Angron die as he wanted too both better choices then forcibly abducting Angron and guaranteeing that Angron would rebel

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the Emperor couldn't just unleash the Warhounds because Nuceria had accepted Compliance. I can't remember if that was somewhere official or just a fan theory. The other alternative is that after helping Mortarion overthrow his tyrant and getting nothing but resentment in return, the Big E couldn't be bothered to pander to Angron's pride.