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Hail warmasters.

I am endevouring to think tank some tactics and stratages to make the renegades and heretics aka lost and damned aka hereticus militirum usuable and not just a helpful ally.
Comment your ideas on how to play them below.

One idea I've been working on is to have a naked commander(only literally for slannash armies) with the inspiring warlord trait sitting with command squads with vox casters to make Milita squads with vox casters nearly fearless.
Also ogryns and some hqs in a Valkyrie grav chut drop for an alpha strike and the hqs can summon deamons(please correct me if deamons cannot be summoned first turn) and deamons i think make the best allies as they have a few stratagems weF can use on our other units ie summoning stratagems and the deamonic possession stratagem.

What are your thoughts and ideas?

I suppose the new strategem if you go second for +1 cover helps alot...

If you go second, potentially a Khornate Mass Assult army could work. IF you can bring it far enough forward that is.

Basically fielding 3 command squads with the banner that allows for losses to fight one more time before they are removed.
Add in 50 man blob mutant squads and enforcer support to keep the rabble from running.
The stratagem does double your armor value at the first turn. Considering that attrition rates for the 50 man blobs ar acceptable up to half the squad per turn i think it might work out favourably, since it halves the losses you suffer from small-ish arms.

Alternatively, a Tzeentchian gunline ofcourse profits from said stratagem, however so long the base troops neither have the upgradability (militia training and or Flak armor) so long this army won't be good enough to duel other gunlines.

Armored fist won't work, aslong as Chimeras are so pricy and the rule of 3 is general consensus, since the only reasonable units for a armored fist list would be massed marauders.

Leaves us with one more possibility, attritional warfare.
Basically Command squads + command voxes plus 20 man militia blobs with voxes and sigils, as to tilt favour of morale cheks period in the favour of milita, bonus points for when you get targeted by Psy that forces you to roll 2d6 for morale and subtract the lower result, whilest you also subtract the highest result for the chaos sigil. Chip damage would be the name of the game for such a list, Mortar squads and artillery against the softer infantry targets and to ignore LOS Leman russes on a bare minimum equipment with battle cannons massed to destroy heavy armor. BUT such a list requires a hammer and i am not sure that CSM can be pulled for this, potentially TS psyker spam but even then the list would be hardly optimal in my opinion.

Ofcourse there is always the option to be a cheap CP farm for whatever Chaos list you intend on running since a min battalion of R&H is even cheaper then IG by 10 pts. if that is however worth the subpar unit performance, bad morale of such a battalion or generally the lack of any flavour is anyones guess.

My basic thought is:

Take a Renegades and Heretics detachment that is bigger than each of your other two detachments.

So, ~750 points of Renegades and Heretics, ~600 points of Renegade Knights, and ~650 points of Heretic Astartes.

With this, your army is more Renegades and Heretics than anything else, so a tournament would probably just list you as Renegades and Heretics. From there it's a matter of picking the least bad R+H units, and picking the rest of your army to complement that.

R+H commander 25
R+H commander 25
R+H command squad, lascannon 44
R+H command squad, lascannon 44
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H leman russ, 3 heavy bolters, heavy stubber 172
R+H leman russ, 3 heavy bolters, heavy stubber 172

806 points of R+H

Renegade Knight Castellan 604

1410 points with the Castellan, so 590 remaining for Heretic Astartes

exalted champion 70
chaos lord 74
40 cultists, 4 heavy stubbers 176
40 cultists, 4 heavy stubbers 176
10 cultists, heavy stubber 44

1950 points after all of that, so so points left to mess around or give people power weapons or whatever.

It's a list I'm thinking of making right now to tackle this same question of "how to use the worst army", but I likely won't start until Chapter Approved is known and it won't mess with anything.

Renegades and heretics can create the cheapest brigade in the game as well to create a good source of cp. But it doesnt have stratagems to soend them on so we need an ally to use them on. Deamonic possession is a good one but will rarily be used. Tide of traitors was on but got nerfed and littke point taking our cultists other than to have the enforcer beat the heck out of them (which can be useful with a max sized blob).
What other stratagems can r&h make use of?


++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Chaos - Renegades & Heretics) [48 PL, 576pts] ++

+ HQ +

Renegade Commander [3 PL, 25pts]: Brutal Assault weapon, Laspistol

Renegade Commander [3 PL, 25pts]: Brutal Assault weapon, Laspistol

Renegade Commander [3 PL, 25pts]: Brutal Assault weapon, Laspistol

+ Troops +

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Renegade Militia with Autogun
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Renegade Militia with Autogun
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Renegade Militia with Autogun
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Renegade Militia with Autogun
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Renegade Militia with Autogun
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Renegade Militia with Autogun
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun

+ Elites +

Renegade Enforcer [2 PL, 30pts]: Autopistol, Brutal Assault weapon

Renegade Enforcer [2 PL, 30pts]: Autopistol, Brutal Assault weapon

Renegade Enforcer [2 PL, 30pts]: Autopistol, Brutal Assault weapon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 33pts]: Chaos Spawn

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 33pts]: Chaos Spawn

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 33pts]: Chaos Spawn

+ Heavy Support +

Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 24pts]
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar

Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 24pts]
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar

Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 24pts]
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Lasgun, Mortar

++ Total: [48 PL, 576pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 ph34r wrote:
My basic thought is:

Take a Renegades and Heretics detachment that is bigger than each of your other two detachments.

So, ~750 points of Renegades and Heretics, ~600 points of Renegade Knights, and ~650 points of Heretic Astartes.

With this, your army is more Renegades and Heretics than anything else, so a tournament would probably just list you as Renegades and Heretics. From there it's a matter of picking the least bad R+H units, and picking the rest of your army to complement that.

R+H commander 25
R+H commander 25
R+H command squad, lascannon 44
R+H command squad, lascannon 44
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H leman russ, 3 heavy bolters, heavy stubber 172
R+H leman russ, 3 heavy bolters, heavy stubber 172

806 points of R+H

Renegade Knight Castellan 604

1410 points with the Castellan, so 590 remaining for Heretic Astartes

exalted champion 70
chaos lord 74
40 cultists, 4 heavy stubbers 176
40 cultists, 4 heavy stubbers 176
10 cultists, heavy stubber 44

1950 points after all of that, so so points left to mess around or give people power weapons or whatever.

It's a list I'm thinking of making right now to tackle this same question of "how to use the worst army", but I likely won't start until Chapter Approved is known and it won't mess with anything.

Frankly that could work, but that still does not solve the problem the average player faces (regardless of starter or allready established owner of a R&H army). Basically your list fields all good options there are, which are better in their stock status then even IG but without traits. If we make that comparison with traits we'll see that our units are either worse or suffer from the > NO-TRAIT-SYNDROME/ NO-STRATAGEM-SYNDROME

The fact remains that R&H even for standard play are a option that makes you suffer. Even on the most basic levels, take Mutants and Militia for exemple, they were decent in 7th, one of the more versatile and good troop choices actually worth fielding, either there to fill the board with cheap bodies or some decent AT fire etc. Now both options are horrendously overpriced, by atleast 25%. (Even more when we compare to armies like CSM cultists with working and decent Traits.)

IT also does not help that the covenants themselves became virtually useless: Nurgle beeing hit the most, but even the Tzeentch one has gotten worse. Khorne can not even compete with "catachan" or even the WE trait (which is not great).
Cultists in R&H are also worse then their CSM counterpart but cost the excact same ammount of points and can't even be fielded in the same size as their CSM counterpart. I am surprised how they even ended up in the R&H list.

2 Things need to happen for Militia and mutants: Mutants need to go down by 1ppm to 3ppm, in order to field a propper meatshield and gain the option for brutal assult weapons and a autopistol.
Militia: Needs to get the basic cultist profile, potentially even a option to go up to 30 man blobs. Additionally since they can't get orders and since the GW insists that covenants should do gak all, we might aswell give them a special rule that makes them usefull.

"Irregular Warfare": If a unit with this rule remained stationary for 1 turn or has not yet be moved at the start of the game it adds +1 to it's armor and ld charachteristic. If a unit remains 2 turns stationary or since the start of the game it adds +2 to the armor and LD charachteristic.
Not only would that fit in for the ambush, street baricade, guerilla, etc fighting style were one would expect a R&H army to fight but it also would be conditional and add a layer of thought to the movement of the Militia itself, allowing you to remain stationary but potentially in a bad position to gain a 5+ or 4+ armor or to move and take casualities but capture that objective.

I am also against Warlord Traits, i'd rather see the Option to reintroduce Arch Demagougic options like in 7th, make them again cost pts to balance them but essentially add in the options again for those armies. That would also massively statisfy all the people that have allready started the army and have now their former core pieces invalidated (especially my Grenadier squads).

Stratagems should depend on the Arch demagogue:
Master of the horde which allowed you to recycle on a throw of 5+ last edition a squad which initially numbered over 15 models. Adapt that to maybee a squad which numbered 20 models to begin with and spend 1 Cp to gain +1 on the roll non rerollable. (edit: and only up to a 4+ max for improvisation, i don't want to repeat late 7th ed with 2+ recycling, that is not fun and not rewarding)

Bloody handed Reaver: All militia, Mutants or other units with a 6+ save improve it to a 5 + save. Additionally it allows you to upgrade Militia squads for 1 ppm to Veteran Militia, which gains ws 3+ instead of 4+ or to upgrade them to grenadiers for 3 ppm which gain WS and BS 3+ aswell as acess to hot shot weaponry. Stratagem here could be "into the fray" 2Cp in the shooting phase, until the start of your next turn the unit adds +1 to the ammount of shots fired with any weapon (rapid 1 changes to rapid 2 et.)

these are just exemples and suggestions btw.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
My basic thought is:

Take a Renegades and Heretics detachment that is bigger than each of your other two detachments.

So, ~750 points of Renegades and Heretics, ~600 points of Renegade Knights, and ~650 points of Heretic Astartes.

With this, your army is more Renegades and Heretics than anything else, so a tournament would probably just list you as Renegades and Heretics. From there it's a matter of picking the least bad R+H units, and picking the rest of your army to complement that.

R+H commander 25
R+H commander 25
R+H command squad, lascannon 44
R+H command squad, lascannon 44
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H marauders, Stalkers, 2 plasma, power maul 60
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H heavy weapons squad, 6 mortars 48
R+H leman russ, 3 heavy bolters, heavy stubber 172
R+H leman russ, 3 heavy bolters, heavy stubber 172

806 points of R+H

Renegade Knight Castellan 604

1410 points with the Castellan, so 590 remaining for Heretic Astartes

exalted champion 70
chaos lord 74
40 cultists, 4 heavy stubbers 176
40 cultists, 4 heavy stubbers 176
10 cultists, heavy stubber 44

1950 points after all of that, so so points left to mess around or give people power weapons or whatever.

It's a list I'm thinking of making right now to tackle this same question of "how to use the worst army", but I likely won't start until Chapter Approved is known and it won't mess with anything.

Frankly that could work, but that still does not solve the problem the average player faces (regardless of starter or allready established owner of a R&H army). Basically your list fields all good options there are, which are better in their stock status then even IG but without traits. If we make that comparison with traits we'll see that our units are either worse or suffer from the > NO-TRAIT-SYNDROME/ NO-STRATAGEM-SYNDROME

The fact remains that R&H even for standard play are a option that makes you suffer. Even on the most basic levels, take Mutants and Militia for exemple, they were decent in 7th, one of the more versatile and good troop choices actually worth fielding, either there to fill the board with cheap bodies or some decent AT fire etc. Now both options are horrendously overpriced, by atleast 25%. (Even more when we compare to armies like CSM cultists with working and decent Traits.)

IT also does not help that the covenants themselves became virtually useless: Nurgle beeing hit the most, but even the Tzeentch one has gotten worse. Khorne can not even compete with "catachan" or even the WE trait (which is not great).
Cultists in R&H are also worse then their CSM counterpart but cost the excact same ammount of points and can't even be fielded in the same size as their CSM counterpart. I am surprised how they even ended up in the R&H list.

2 Things need to happen for Militia and mutants: Mutants need to go down by 1ppm to 3ppm, in order to field a propper meatshield and gain the option for brutal assult weapons and a autopistol.
Militia: Needs to get the basic cultist profile, potentially even a option to go up to 30 man blobs. Additionally since they can't get orders and since the GW insists that covenants should do gak all, we might aswell give them a special rule that makes them usefull.

"Irregular Warfare": If a unit with this rule remained stationary for 1 turn or has not yet be moved at the start of the game it adds +1 to it's armor and ld charachteristic. If a unit remains 2 turns stationary or since the start of the game it adds +2 to the armor and LD charachteristic.
Not only would that fit in for the ambush, street baricade, guerilla, etc fighting style were one would expect a R&H army to fight but it also would be conditional and add a layer of thought to the movement of the Militia itself, allowing you to remain stationary but potentially in a bad position to gain a 5+ or 4+ armor or to move and take casualities but capture that objective.

I am also against Warlord Traits, i'd rather see the Option to reintroduce Arch Demagougic options like in 7th, make them again cost pts to balance them but essentially add in the options again for those armies. That would also massively statisfy all the people that have allready started the army and have now their former core pieces invalidated (especially my Grenadier squads).

Stratagems should depend on the Arch demagogue:
Master of the horde which allowed you to recycle on a throw of 5+ last edition a squad which initially numbered over 15 models. Adapt that to maybee a squad which numbered 20 models to begin with and spend 1 Cp to gain +1 on the roll non rerollable. (edit: and only up to a 4+ max for improvisation, i don't want to repeat late 7th ed with 2+ recycling, that is not fun and not rewarding)

Bloody handed Reaver: All militia, Mutants or other units with a 6+ save improve it to a 5 + save. Additionally it allows you to upgrade Militia squads for 1 ppm to Veteran Militia, which gains ws 3+ instead of 4+ or to upgrade them to grenadiers for 3 ppm which gain WS and BS 3+ aswell as acess to hot shot weaponry. Stratagem here could be "into the fray" 2Cp in the shooting phase, until the start of your next turn the unit adds +1 to the ammount of shots fired with any weapon (rapid 1 changes to rapid 2 et.)

these are just exemples and suggestions btw.

Your correct that this army makes the player suffer. Good thing we are chaos and suffering is what we love lol.
The army is in desperate need of a codex or atleast a good patch. Unfortunately we know that with it being a forgeworld army the only time thetmy will patch is to nerf it deeper into death. Even a rule like brood brothers on Standard gusrd so we can play em with chaos and allow us to get regimental bonus like catachan for khorn etc would do.

There are afew benefits we have.
1. Our elites are good. Maruders and diciples are great and well pointed.
2. Cheap. We can feild the cheapest brigade in the game.
3. Chaos as allies. While not great its one love that gets most of us to tjis army.
4. Finally One benifit we get over the others is suprisingly moral management. Despite the average moral being very low ld 5.5, we have alot of ways to manage it. Vox casters with command squads near an inspiring warlord, sigils and since they nerfed commisars enforcers are actually better than them now at reducing losses. This is one. Benefit that our cultisrs get over csm ones as they typivally run away in large blobs.

Well what few benefits we have are good.

No denying that marauders especially of the stalker variantion are hillariously strong, that does however not matter since the rule of 3 will stop you from ever forming a cohesive marauder company.

Disciples whilest they are the better allrounders then guard veterans still lack traits, aswell as more options for special weaponry.

Enforcers are basically what commisars should've been..

Also if you take morale Management voxes you still add in pts.
Also 1 command vox won't save you from terrible morale, better are two. This leads to a somewhat snoballing cost along the whole army.
Even to just morale proof the cheapest battalion you atleast pay 15 pts additionally for militia voxes and another 68 pts for command squads with voxes.
That puts the cheapest battalion solidly above guard cp Farm.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well what few benefits we have are good.

No denying that marauders especially of the stalker variantion are hillariously strong, that does however not matter since the rule of 3 will stop you from ever forming a cohesive marauder company.

Disciples whilest they are the better allrounders then guard veterans still lack traits, aswell as more options for special weaponry.

Enforcers are basically what commisars should've been..

Also if you take morale Management voxes you still add in pts.
Also 1 command vox won't save you from terrible morale, better are two. This leads to a somewhat snoballing cost along the whole army.
Even to just morale proof the cheapest battalion you atleast pay 15 pts additionally for militia voxes and another 68 pts for command squads with voxes.
That puts the cheapest battalion solidly above guard cp Farm.

Yeah the rule of 3 makes maruders harder to use. I like the 5 man snipers and bolter units. They are great at control.

Diciples and command units are great optiobs for our anti tank heavy weapons.

If you have a few command vox units with the inspiring warlord near them it could mean all militia with vox have a high chance of having ld9 and a sigil helps.

By no means im claiming the army to be usuable but its some benefits we can use

Here is a list im Working on

The ogyrns and non warlord hqs ride in the transports.
The valkrye units grav schut alpha strike (with allies the hqs can also summon deamons.).
The warlord sits with the command squads boasting their leadership which boasts the ld of the milita making them nearly fearless cheap screening units.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Renegades & Heretics) [37 PL, 501pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Covenant: Covenant of Khorne

+ HQ +

Malefic Lord [4 PL, 80pts]: Creeping Terror, Warp Flux

Renegade Commander [3 PL, 25pts]: 2. Inspiring Leader, Brutal Assault weapon, Shotgun, Warlord

+ Troops +

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun, Krak grenade
. Renegade Militia w/ Vox-caster: Autogun, Vox-caster
. 8x Renegade Militia with Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun
. Renegade Militia w/ Vox-caster: Autogun, Vox-caster
. 8x Renegade Militia with Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun
. Renegade Militia w/ Vox-caster: Autogun, Vox-caster
. 8x Renegade Militia with Autogun

+ Elites +

Renegade Command Squad [3 PL, 52pts]: Krak grenade
. Disciple w/ Command Vox Net: Autogun, Command vox net
. Disciple Weapon Team: Autocannon, 2x Disciple
. 2x Disciple with lasgun

Renegade Command Squad [3 PL, 52pts]: Krak grenade
. Disciple w/ Command Vox Net: Autogun, Command vox net
. Disciple Weapon Team: Autocannon, 2x Disciple
. 2x Disciple with lasgun

Renegade Command Squad [3 PL, 52pts]: Krak grenade
. Disciple w/ Command Vox Net: Autogun, Command vox net
. Disciple Weapon Team: Autocannon, 2x Disciple
. 2x Disciple with lasgun

Renegade Marauder Squad [4 PL, 35pts]: Stalkers
. Marauder Chief: Boltgun
. 2x Marauder With Autogun
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

Renegade Marauder Squad [4 PL, 35pts]: Stalkers
. Marauder Chief: Boltgun
. 2x Marauder With Autogun
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

Renegade Marauder Squad [4 PL, 35pts]: Stalkers
. Marauder Chief: Boltgun
. 2x Marauder With Autogun
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Renegades & Heretics) [26 PL, 460pts] ++

+ HQ +

Malefic Lord [4 PL, 80pts]: Creeping Terror, Warp Flux

Malefic Lord [4 PL, 80pts]: Unnatural Vigour, Warp Flux

+ Troops +

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 50pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun
. Renegade Militia w/ special weapon: Grenade Launcher
. Renegade Militia w/ Vox-caster: Autogun, Vox-caster
. 7x Renegade Militia with Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 50pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun
. Renegade Militia w/ special weapon: Grenade Launcher
. Renegade Militia w/ Vox-caster: Autogun, Vox-caster
. 7x Renegade Militia with Autogun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 50pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun
. Renegade Militia w/ special weapon: Grenade Launcher
. Renegade Militia w/ Vox-caster: Autogun, Vox-caster
. 7x Renegade Militia with Autogun

+ Elites +

Renegade Disciple Squad [3 PL, 50pts]: Krak grenade
. Disciple Champion: Autogun
. Disciple Heavy Weapon Team: 2x Disciple, Lascannon
. 2x Disciple with autogun

Renegade Disciple Squad [3 PL, 50pts]: Krak grenade
. Disciple Champion: Autogun
. Disciple Heavy Weapon Team: 2x Disciple, Lascannon
. 2x Disciple with autogun

Renegade Disciple Squad [3 PL, 50pts]: Krak grenade
. Disciple Champion: Autogun
. Disciple Heavy Weapon Team: 2x Disciple, Lascannon
. 2x Disciple with autogun

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Renegades & Heretics) [70 PL, 1039pts] ++

+ HQ +

Renegade Commander [3 PL, 34pts]: Bolt pistol, Power fist

+ Elites +

Renegade Ogryn Brutes [8 PL, 102pts]
. 2x Brutes: 2x Ogryn Weapon
. Ogryn Berserker Boss: Ogryn Power drill

Renegade Ogryn Brutes [8 PL, 102pts]
. 2x Brutes: 2x Ogryn Weapon
. Ogryn Berserker Boss: Ogryn Power drill

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 164pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 164pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 164pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 24pts]
. Renegade Weapon Team: Autogun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Autogun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Autogun, Mortar

Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 24pts]
. Renegade Weapon Team: Autogun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Autogun, Mortar
. Renegade Weapon Team: Autogun, Mortar

+ Flyer +

Valkyries [10 PL, 142pts]
. Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [5 PL, 119pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Track Guards

++ Total: [133 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Are the ogryns, Valkyrie, and Chimera actually worthwhile?

Are the basic 10 man renegade squads good at all either?

 ph34r wrote:
Are the ogryns, Valkyrie, and Chimera actually worthwhile?

Are the basic 10 man renegade squads good at all either?

valkyrie ogryins are nasty. considering they can grav chute it makes them reliable, add to that that at 30pts they are comparably cheap (also the wording on combat drugs is funny, basically one can neither assume that the buff ever expires but considering last edition the buff did expire i'd say we are save if we assume that the combat drugs only count for one round).

Chimeras are something: basically to paraphrase the IG tactica " once the gold standart of any transport for a good price, now still the gold standart but with an 8th edition pricetag."
Basically like most groundboud imperial and chaos transports the price is what kills them: 93 pts for the basic ML HB loadout is not particulary funny, on the other hand you atleast get decent weaponry and a tough chasis for a transport, unlike chaos space marines which have to do with rhinos. Unlike the IG however we have elite choices that WANT mobility badly, Marauders (every squad except snipers) or even disciples which however have no inherent mobility compared to scions. (if you field however chimeras, i'd upgrade the ML into an autocannon, waaay more versatile or two heavy flamers and make a discount hellhound when you field melee units.)

Militia is actually a better option then cultists in a mono R&H army:; consider this, Militia can get propped up morale by Vox alone, since you WILL field command squads anyways to get enough good BS AT on the field, especially when the rule of three is applied. Really good they become when you field them in 20 man blocks with vox and the chaos sigil. That is were they become basically fearless if you field enough command squads with command voxes. (statistics dictate that 3 command squads each rolling 2 d6 for random morale atleast one 6 is there to spread the LD. Combine that with the basic warlord trait of the +1 ld aura and you can achieve 10ld. A flat 10ld on a 4.5 ppm model is annoying to shift, the sigil itself also is a great tool against LD shenanigans that force you to roll 2d6, since you anyways roll 2 d6 for the sigil and pick the lower result. Cultists on the other hand, have no inherent morale boost option and are capped at 30 which makes enforcers a must for them however a 30 man squad is not something that you want to babysitt, not when you can field a 50 man squad with potentially t4. Enforcers do additionally compete in the elite slots department, you know, the one part of the list that is usefull and probably allready chokefull? Granted that changes if you just want to field the grand soviet Mutant army, but i'd argue CSM can do that better what with IW or Abbadon, allbeit they have no flag bearers so there's that.

Militia also get's access to the holly grail of special and heavy weaponry and unlike IG we can actually justify to replace some lasguns/autoguns for grenade launchers, better though is the fact that per 10 men in the squad you can field 1 HWT , stubbers are a good option, mortars are better, discount 20 man blobs hiding mortars can even make the most annoying IG gunline reconsider their chances of winning an mortar fest.(heavy weapons squads with mortars are a whole other story though)
Basically you can abuse Militia squads, especially the bigger ones, as adhoc mortar /heavy stubber Heavy weapon squads and as bubblewrap and as a solid defensive unit to hide stuff behind, like Thuddguns, mortar squads, Leman russes etc.

5+ BS guardsmen for the same cost just seems unusably bad to me.

 ph34r wrote:
5+ BS guardsmen for the same cost just seems unusably bad to me.

Again. Troop choices don't do stuff for R&H except buying time for your Tanks, Artilery, etc to mop up the floor. INfact they just need to hold long enough and that is were MIlitia is vastly superior option compared to the cultists, which need constant backup from enforcers.

Additionally Militia and conscripts are the same price, and somehwat comparable, the problem is that both of these units are after numerous nerfs not worth the 4 ppm cost. Just like Cultists are not worth their 4 ppm cost compared to IG guardsmen. The question is, is the Guardsmen underpriced or these units overpriced. Especially when we consider that for 6ppm people can field Kabalites, or 7 for firewarriors etc. because if we compare a 5 ppm guardsmen to these units they basically face the same problems as militia/cultists/ conscripts face.

Basically the scaling is off. Maybee 3ppm conscripts is not good but militia is technically even worse then them, i personally belive militia and mutant squads should cost 3ppm as to scale propperly but so long GW decides to not fix FW armies in general except nerfing stuff, so long R&H won't be looked at propperly.


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If you wanted to play with decent R&H troops, get yourself a hold over the IA13 list of R&H, where our troops were actually fieldable as more then just a fleshwall to hide big guns behind or to just work as a CP farm.
(ironically the price for a baseline militia man with the same stats as now were 3 ppm, the guardsmen at the time did cost 5, and you could buy flat upgrades to squads like militia training which increased WS and BS by 1, so the scalling balance is really off for R&H no matter what people say.) Feelsbadman

Reasonable points. What do you like to have be your main damage dealers then?

I was thinking the best options look like Leman Russ Battle Tank, Basilisk, and 6 team mortar squads. Probably in the context of a Vanguard detachment with 3 Marauders, 2 command squads, no Troops, 18 mortars, and then 1-3 basilisks or russes.

My troops would be Cultists from the Chaos Marines book because they are strong and have stratagems.

 ph34r wrote:
Reasonable points. What do you like to have be your main damage dealers then?

I was thinking the best options look like Leman Russ Battle Tank, Basilisk, and 6 team mortar squads. Probably in the context of a Vanguard detachment with 3 Marauders, 2 command squads, no Troops, 18 mortars, and then 1-3 basilisks or russes.

My troops would be Cultists from the Chaos Marines book because they are strong and have stratagems.

Depends: i really like to field Sniper marauders 2 seperate small scale squads to force bubble makers and auras aswell as officers away they are also great backfield security. Alternatively, take the full 10 dudes, give the chief a plasma pistol and the squad 2 plasma guns and either throw them out a valkyrie or chimera and look how they remove stuff, also don't forget they get baseline 2 A so if you can't remove something with shooting, just charge it.
I sometimes use field artillery: quad launchers and Heavy mortars. Especcially quad launchers are something that you can consider if you face lot's of hordes, even after their price hike, one of these things cost 85 pts +12pts in crew (bs 4+ and 5+ armor so actually the crew is better at fighting then most of our stuff^^) 4d6 s5 shells per one gun mean that on average you throw out 14 shots --> 7 hits,etc. They are a surprisingly good option especcially against slightly heavier infantry, even against light vehicles since you have alot of weight off dice. Heavy mortars are better at AT duties and slightly cheaper but only d6 S6 ap -1 makes them worse on the field, but they still generally get their pts back.

6 HWT's mortar squads for 48 pts always get their points back and are quite dangerous for infantry but they are quite restricted in the AT department, non the less, if you want to shell something fielding 12 mortars won't even cost you 100 pts and that is quite good. Granted we "only " hit 1/3 rd of the time but an average 6 mortar shooting pahse ends up with 21 shells, 7 hits and against t4 3.5 wounds, better then wyverns if you break it appart with pts cost in mind and certainly a good way to annoy the one guard player that thought he had fire supperiority.

Leman russes, whilest not beeing able to field ones with traits or commanders, still are a great option, baseline battlecannon is a decent allround solution and average out with 7 S8 Ap-2 d3Dmg shots. A squad of those can deal with nearly anything and are surprisngly cheap. ( altough IG traits make them even more monstrous) Punishers ofcourse are the other solution, nobody is going to ignore that one thing with 40 s5 shots, except maybee knights, but even against them you can force through chip damage.So yes, if you have an anvil, leman russes are your hammer and they tend to do their job reliably.

my Question is, why would you field a Basilisk for more pts when you can field an earthshaker carriage? it is slightly cheaper, granted it is no chimera but still and the additional heavy bolter is not particulary usefull, especially when we consider that you want to hide the basiliks anyways.

Hellhounds are ofcourse also a nice thing to field, if you like tanks more then a rolling promethium barrel, take salamander scout tank with an autocannon and heavy bolter costs just 85 pts and get's a scout movement, quite usefull little things really. ( bonus points if you want to make earthshaker batteries, just put the gun with the shield on a seperate base and modify the chimera chassis, voila a salamander scout tank and a earthshaker.)

Another fun thing, especially on smaller scale is, to take 3 command squads, made out of 4 dudes and give each squad an autocannon and a plasmagun put that in a valkyrie or chimera and watch as they saturate nearly anything with shots, bonus points for 3 MSU so they will be fairly immune to shooting.
If you field ogryins, take a valkyire, that way you all but guarantee a melee combat, chose your target and remove it via power drill. it works, so long your enemy does not out mob you, however inbetween quad launchers and leman russ punishers one would imagine that you remove bubbblewrap fairly well. They are more along the line of a assasination unit or a hail marry objective grabber but they are quite tough in a way, not bullgryin tough but quite tough.

Earthshaker carriage is more expensive, no? 105 + 16 for the mandatory crew?

I am thinking command squads can have a lascannon rather than autocannon.

Just remember that up to 1000pts the rule of 3 is rule of 2.
Ofcourse diciples are command squads are the same thing other than a few options and squad size.
Auto cannons are cheaper and more average damage against tanks than the lazcannon but less str and Ap but is still half the points. I take3 of each

 ph34r wrote:
Earthshaker carriage is more expensive, no? 105 + 16 for the mandatory crew?

I am thinking command squads can have a lascannon rather than autocannon.

Ah, completly forgot that they nerfed them, for whatever reason.....

Autocannons are more reliable, especially if you need to move, something you potentially need to, Lascannons are really good if you expect armored spam, but on a t3 model i am not particulary fond of weaponry that is more expensive then the carrier/s.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Earthshaker carriage is more expensive, no? 105 + 16 for the mandatory crew?

I am thinking command squads can have a lascannon rather than autocannon.

Ah, completly forgot that they nerfed them, for whatever reason.....

Autocannons are more reliable, especially if you need to move, something you potentially need to, Lascannons are really good if you expect armored spam, but on a t3 model i am not particulary fond of weaponry that is more expensive then the carrier/s.

Yeah, the Carriage and Battery nerf really sucked and makes no sense to me. Maybe they'll reverse it this Chapter Approved 2018? HAH

The lascannon has more damage output against armor, which would be the main purpose for having that small squad at all. Mortars, basic infantry, knights, etc can all deal with infantry no problem, but I find the elusive back-lines vehicles much more frustrating to kill. Maybe I will just magnetize the weapon team carriages and try both in the long run.

 ph34r wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Earthshaker carriage is more expensive, no? 105 + 16 for the mandatory crew?

I am thinking command squads can have a lascannon rather than autocannon.

Ah, completly forgot that they nerfed them, for whatever reason.....

Autocannons are more reliable, especially if you need to move, something you potentially need to, Lascannons are really good if you expect armored spam, but on a t3 model i am not particulary fond of weaponry that is more expensive then the carrier/s.

Yeah, the Carriage and Battery nerf really sucked and makes no sense to me. Maybe they'll reverse it this Chapter Approved 2018? HAH

The lascannon has more damage output against armor, which would be the main purpose for having that small squad at all. Mortars, basic infantry, knights, etc can all deal with infantry no problem, but I find the elusive back-lines vehicles much more frustrating to kill. Maybe I will just magnetize the weapon team carriages and try both in the long run.

If backline campers are your problem, bring the "penis-enlargment gun" aka the basilisk. Actually bring a full 3piecer of them and make the Camper rue his decision to hide.

Btw., you have hope? For a buff of a Fw army?
Are you ok, do you feel well?
I'd bet 100chf that Gw won't change anything to the better for any fw list Chaos or imperial. That is if I would bet, but i don't.

Oh yes I am a big Basilisk fan.... I painstakingly converted five of them when platforms were 80 points. Then of course they got the NERF and everyone's army started having -1 to be hit too, which made my basilisks very sad.

 ph34r wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Earthshaker carriage is more expensive, no? 105 + 16 for the mandatory crew?

I am thinking command squads can have a lascannon rather than autocannon.

Ah, completly forgot that they nerfed them, for whatever reason.....

Autocannons are more reliable, especially if you need to move, something you potentially need to, Lascannons are really good if you expect armored spam, but on a t3 model i am not particulary fond of weaponry that is more expensive then the carrier/s.

Yeah, the Carriage and Battery nerf really sucked and makes no sense to me. Maybe they'll reverse it this Chapter Approved 2018? HAH

The lascannon has more damage output against armor, which would be the main purpose for having that small squad at all. Mortars, basic infantry, knights, etc can all deal with infantry no problem, but I find the elusive back-lines vehicles much more frustrating to kill. Maybe I will just magnetize the weapon team carriages and try both in the long run.

Could fly a valkrye and drop some orgryns with a boss and malificent lords (one with warpflux) behind the lines to take out backline tanks.
Against Russ tanks auto cannon diciples do 0.0092 damage per point while lazcannon does 0.0486 damage per point. So they are better suited to elite infantry.

That is, if your enemy does not field screens.
If your opponents fields screens or enough of them you are out of luck.

Tough luck ph43r, saddens me each time i see or hear such a story, atleast though you can still field them, unlike my Renegade grenadiers which i converted from scions, now that is a real bummer...

Not Online!!! wrote:
That is, if your enemy does not field screens.
If your opponents fields screens or enough of them you are out of luck.

Tough luck ph43r, saddens me each time i see or hear such a story, atleast though you can still field them, unlike my Renegade grenadiers which i converted from scions, now that is a real bummer...

Screens are not normally an issue the orgrns unleash 5x str 6/7-10 attacks each

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That is, if your enemy does not field screens.
If your opponents fields screens or enough of them you are out of luck.

Tough luck ph43r, saddens me each time i see or hear such a story, atleast though you can still field them, unlike my Renegade grenadiers which i converted from scions, now that is a real bummer...

Screens are not normally an issue the orgrns unleash 5x str 6/7-10 attacks each

Except when they destroy the screen and then stand in the firing line and get a swift death called shooting phase.
So no screens will and can curb any ogryns dropped out of a valkyrie.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That is, if your enemy does not field screens.
If your opponents fields screens or enough of them you are out of luck.

Tough luck ph43r, saddens me each time i see or hear such a story, atleast though you can still field them, unlike my Renegade grenadiers which i converted from scions, now that is a real bummer...

Screens are not normally an issue the orgrns unleash 5x str 6/7-10 attacks each

Except when they destroy the screen and then stand in the firing line and get a swift death called shooting phase.
So no screens will and can curb any ogryns dropped out of a valkyrie.

I had a game last night against deathwatch with the list and win a minor victory.
The ogryns hit a lazcannon dread behind a screen that was cleared out of the way in the shooting phase. Unfortunately i didnt kill it but hurt it and tied it up for a few turns.

Have been following this thread, the R&H discussion is insightful. When I've faced R&H in 8th it's always been fielded along with Daemons / CSM. The most effective combo I've seen is Earthshakers and Bloodthirsters, which made for quite a 1-2 punch.

Possible to change the thread title? R&H is a million times better than Grey Knights.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Have been following this thread, the R&H discussion is insightful. When I've faced R&H in 8th it's always been fielded along with Daemons / CSM. The most effective combo I've seen is Earthshakers and Bloodthirsters, which made for quite a 1-2 punch.

Possible to change the thread title? R&H is a million times better than Grey Knights.

That is debatable.

Again soup also is not a propper list and such a list will have more daemons then r&h on the field.
And even with soup r&h just have renegade knights and no smashface option unlike grey knights.

But a match between r&h and GK would be like the paralympics, except all participants got additionally crippled/drugged.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Have been following this thread, the R&H discussion is insightful. When I've faced R&H in 8th it's always been fielded along with Daemons / CSM. The most effective combo I've seen is Earthshakers and Bloodthirsters, which made for quite a 1-2 punch.

Possible to change the thread title? R&H is a million times better than Grey Knights.

That is debatable.

Again soup also is not a propper list and such a list will have more daemons then r&h on the field.
And even with soup r&h just have renegade knights and no smashface option unlike grey knights.

But a match between r&h and GK would be like the paralympics, except all participants got additionally crippled/drugged.

im glad this thread has been helpful

I have had a few games recently and found a few facts.
The Valkyrie orgyn and ml alpha assault squad can do alot of damage got bjorn down to1 wound in one turn.
Maficent lords are very good at delaying units.
10 man troops dont need moral management since they die before they need to take moral or lose so few that its cheaper to let them go.
Mauders with sniper rifles and boltgun are awesome as are lascannon or auto cannon diciples/command squads.
Speed bumps are needed as troops dont last long, nurgle deamon allies would be great.
Grey knights are still better than r＆ h solo so more like a speical Olympian vs a rotten tomato and we the tomato.



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ALSO r＆ h can generate alot of cp but not much to spend it on.