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So I wanted to make a little thread here about the differences in Warhammer 40k since I used to collect/play in 2nd Edition and now, having only recently come back to it.

So looking accross the model range:

Seems there are far more to chose from, and generally the models are better than they were, no denying that. It is a shame that GW no longer make metal's though. Yes I know that plastics are way better than they used to be, and yes, arguably better now than the metals were. Call me old school, but I just prefer the feel of the metal miniatures, and there are some advantages like you can use harsher paint stripping chemicals, and even to break down the glue. I still think in the long run the metals will hold value more, we'll see.

But the kits are fantastic compared to what they used to be, a plastic space marine squad used to consist of 8 identical marines, sergeant, and heavy, the variation you can do now is vastly improved.

Another thing I have noticed is the size of some of the models accross the range. They have gotten bigger.

Watching some youtube vids of game reports, the range of large models is staggering. Back in 2nd Ed, things like dreadnaughts and Razerback size tanks were typrically your largest models, choas deamons and warlords were bearly bigger than regular soldiers. The largest model around I think were Land Raiders.

Now, things are huge. Defilers, some of the larger chaos deamons, ork war machines, huge range or large flyers, those imperial guard tanks (baneblade is it?), even some of the larger tyranids etc, are massive.

Gaming wise:

Things are cheaper (points values), I am not surprised actually, as you need to buy more mdels to fill out the same size armies, and obvious that benefits GW through sales, personally I like it, because it means you can vary your army more, and you can always play lower value points games.

But I remember my Dark Angels were pretty much, 10 space marines, 5 terminators, 2 character HQ's and a dreadnaught and that was pretty much 2k right there.

Also units are far more deadly than they used to be, it is much easier to kill each other.

The rules are also quite a bit different, particularly fighting in hand to hand - and dont quote me, but I dont remember being able to shoot and then charge in 2nd ed, seems you can close in with a close combat army much faster than you could.

I like the varied game play options now though like holding objectives and just how the points work in general, its not just about killing each other now.

So overall...

I am mostly liking were it has gone, with two exceptions.

Lack of metal, but I've already gone in to that.

But secondly the size of the larger models, personally for me this is not something I am a fan of, the ork bomber thing for example, just doesnt fit in at all, most of the larger flyers in general, the super sized imperial guard tanks, and now Knights, I mean... no. Just no. This isn't the 40k scale I grew up with.

But when I build up my armies going forward, I will either ebay old versions of the models, or just exclude the larger ones from my army all together.

I think the model size is negligible minus the primaris they dont count.

I have a full ultramarine battle company that is mostly metal and mono pose plastic and I like them, I have stripped all of them and updated the weapons and arms.

I have had over the years varying sizes of metal marines, I think the smallest one I have is a beakie from 91 and that is all out of proportion, the largest is the resin legion of the damned and even that is only half a head taller so its not really that bad tbh, the ones in the middle of the pack would have to be the 3rd ed multi-part plastic which I think was the game changer for GW in 97

Sites like ebay make buying old metal a chore unless you find a bargain, especially the badly painted "pro painted" models even stripped metal has a high price tag sellers just cant let them go and they compete with each other to get top dollar

Take this example, I need to get two van saar alternate models ( melta leader and the heavy plasma gunner)

I had both in my sights both were highly priced £18 and £29 respectively both had make an offer both sellers refused my offers which were reasonable and then they never sold so were relisted for bidding and sold for pennies both of which I missed

 Rybrook wrote:
I think the model size is negligible minus the primaris they dont count.

I have a full ultramarine battle company that is mostly metal and mono pose plastic and I like them, I have stripped all of them and updated the weapons and arms.

I have had over the years varying sizes of metal marines, I think the smallest one I have is a beakie from 91 and that is all out of proportion, the largest is the resin legion of the damned and even that is only half a head taller so its not really that bad tbh, the ones in the middle of the pack would have to be the 3rd ed multi-part plastic which I think was the game changer for GW in 97

Sites like ebay make buying old metal a chore unless you find a bargain, especially the badly painted "pro painted" models even stripped metal has a high price tag sellers just cant let them go and they compete with each other to get top dollar

Take this example, I need to get two van saar alternate models ( melta leader and the heavy plasma gunner)

I had both in my sights both were highly priced £18 and £29 respectively both had make an offer both sellers refused my offers which were reasonable and then they never sold so were relisted for bidding and sold for pennies both of which I missed

Yeah the ebay market is a weird one. The price for old metals on auction has dropped for most part over the last 5 or so years but the buy it now prices have stayed artificially high. Don't get me wrong the buy it now prices were always pretty high but I could justify paying some of them... Now definatly not, especially as you say when things that are being sold for £20-£30 tend to go for about £5 when eventually sold as an auction lot instead.

Ebay buy-it-now for a lot of metals is basically populated by a lot of stores who are prepared to hang into stuff for the long term; waiting for that impatient buyer. Plus some metal models only appear on ebay rarely (depends on your market, the US ebay is a LOT better stocked than the UK - esp for some ranges), so there's often more temptation to go for a buy it now instead of waiting for a bidding war.

Plus when people look to buy they often use buy it now or sold listings to base their price off; so within reason a higher buy it now that lasts can set the new price for many also trying to sell the same thing.



Personally I like metal, both to work with and to hold as a model. It's just that bit tougher and some of GW's new sculpts )khinerai) have such thin connection points that metal would just feel a lot lot better in the hand and on the table in terms of durability. Of course I well understand why GW shifted away from metals - for the scale of their operation the costs would be very significant and that's before one gets to the up/down nature of metal prices as a raw material (which makes it a nightmare to plan your budget if your key raw material keeps shifting around in price - and typically always heading upward in the long term)

 Rybrook wrote:
I think the model size is negligible minus the primaris they dont count.

I have a full ultramarine battle company that is mostly metal and mono pose plastic and I like them, I have stripped all of them and updated the weapons and arms.

I have had over the years varying sizes of metal marines, I think the smallest one I have is a beakie from 91 and that is all out of proportion, the largest is the resin legion of the damned and even that is only half a head taller so its not really that bad tbh, the ones in the middle of the pack would have to be the 3rd ed multi-part plastic which I think was the game changer for GW in 97

Yeah I wasn't so much talking about the slight increase in model size of some of the existing units, I agree with you actually, its hardly anything, it doesn't bother me either.

What I was getting on about is the range of huge models, that didn't exist back in the 2nd which now appear in peoples armies. I guess it's that I never grew up with them, but personally I don't like seeing them.

I watched a youtube vid of an ork army, and all the warmachines they had, just end up look like big toys, rather than a tabletop army in 40k. I imagine they must be a bit of a nightmare to try and transport also.

As a former 2nd edition player, If there is one thing I am the most impressed with what GW has done over the years, it’s plastic. I was never a huge fan of metal unless it was for Epic. Plastic is far easier to custom and the vast majority of the time the newer stuff simply looks better. Plus I love the light weight. I have other games like Vor or Void where everything is metal and Christ are the boxes heavy. I am collecting WFB stuff and prefer plastic over metal.

I don’t build the huge models, and think they are ridiculous to put on a 4 by 4 or even a 4 by 6 table. I think the Land Raider is kinda pushing the max size on a table that size.

Unfortunately, I feel like while the models have gotten better, many of the rules have gotten worse.

I painted my first metal model in a decade or two the other night. Really highlighted how much better the current stuff is to work with.. Thank god for no more metal.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I painted my first metal model in a decade or two the other night. Really highlighted how much better the current stuff is to work with.. Thank god for no more metal.

Yeah I have to agree with this. Plastic all the way!

Casts and detail are better, so much easier to work with for conversions and weapon swaps, and of course there's dreaded heavy wobbly models! Some of the big guys were basically impossible to keep together without pinning, which was a bit beyond 10 year old me!

I also have mixed feelings about the larger models. It's definitely not the scale of (most) of the old days. I say "most" because I did play with and against the Armorcast Titans on occasion in 2nd. But those were definitely outside the norm of expected play.

I usually run a marine army that could have been fielded in 2nd Ed or Rogue Trader, mostly because that's just the look and the models I like. I enjoy the challenge of making the best army possible out of very traditional units.

I've recently come into possession a bunch of old plastics, including maybe 80 old Guard and Squats. I'm looking forward to painting them up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I painted my first metal model in a decade or two the other night. Really highlighted how much better the current stuff is to work with.. Thank god for no more metal.

Yeah I have to agree with this. Plastic all the way!

Casts and detail are better, so much easier to work with for conversions and weapon swaps, and of course there's dreaded heavy wobbly models! Some of the big guys were basically impossible to keep together without pinning, which was a bit beyond 10 year old me!

I mostly agree, but I just paid top dollar for a pack of the ancient metal genestealers because I love 'em. There are certain metal models which are totally worth it, imo.

Having played since the Rouge Trader book, i still pick up old metal figs every chance i get.
I love the early figs. I have about 300 figs for IG/IA only about 50 are Catachan or new cadian. Most of my figs are RT metal. i have every RT metal human army/guard fig, most of the mercs and adventures also. The old IG plastic boxed set from 2nd ed was great but the heft of metal still rules my heart.

Once the primer's on, the material the model is made from is irrelevant. Other than plastic being lighter and easier to hold - I painted a metal Balrog and a plastic one, and the latter was so much easier to simply pick up and manipulate while painting.

Larger models? I don't mind too much. Some things might be too big, but mostly I think that it's more that the older models were too small due to manufacturing constraints (Metal models can't be too big or they won't cast properly, and of course they all needed to fit in a blister pack). Also, I think they would have made things like Knights in the 80s if they could. The Rogue Trader rules would definitely accept them.

I bought the core of a CSM army on ebay for a total of about £50. Terminator Lord, 10 terminators, small squad of Chosen and a box of basic CSMs. Mostly partially painted but no chore to paint over.

I was always going to convert my army anyway so I didn't need perfection.

Agree with comments about huge models in 40k. I don't think they fit the scale and don't interest me. Good way to get people to splash cash though.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Once the primer's on, the material the model is made from is irrelevant. Other than plastic being lighter and easier to hold - I painted a metal Balrog and a plastic one, and the latter was so much easier to simply pick up and manipulate while painting.

Larger models? I don't mind too much. Some things might be too big, but mostly I think that it's more that the older models were too small due to manufacturing constraints (Metal models can't be too big or they won't cast properly, and of course they all needed to fit in a blister pack). Also, I think they would have made things like Knights in the 80s if they could. The Rogue Trader rules would definitely accept them.

My primer seemed to hold much worse to the metal model and I kept getting raw edges etc. Glueing was a damn hassle too. My opinion is that metal sucked to work with

 SHUPPET wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Once the primer's on, the material the model is made from is irrelevant. Other than plastic being lighter and easier to hold - I painted a metal Balrog and a plastic one, and the latter was so much easier to simply pick up and manipulate while painting.

Larger models? I don't mind too much. Some things might be too big, but mostly I think that it's more that the older models were too small due to manufacturing constraints (Metal models can't be too big or they won't cast properly, and of course they all needed to fit in a blister pack). Also, I think they would have made things like Knights in the 80s if they could. The Rogue Trader rules would definitely accept them.

My primer seemed to hold much worse to the metal model and I kept getting raw edges etc. Glueing was a damn hassle too. My opinion is that metal sucked to work with

I've just got back into it after a break since 3e came out, and I love the possibilities the new multi part plastic kits give you. Much better.

I've only got back into 40k after playing kill team with my nephew. I started with rogue trader - those were the days! My friend had an Ork with 20 missile launchers attached, I had Squats and my other friend used his fantasy skeletons! I fondly remember my friend's Ork codex(?) as it was full of stories.

Played a lot of 2nd ed. Shooting was quite deadly and characters were capable of destroying whole armies. Think you could have an inquisitor with terminator armour (3+ on 2d6!) and a displacement field (2++) with a vortex grenade. His spells were pretty devestating! The psychic phase was complicated and worked like warhammer fantasy with power cards which I wouldn't want back but I miss the fun psychic powers. The current psychic powers in 8th seem really dull and mainly just causing wounds. Where are the spells that transport units across the battlefield, swap units with opponent or create terrain or anything fun?

My nephew bought a starter set recently and the plastic models were so detailed (too detailed?) I think plastic is the way to go personally. I bought some harlequins, cawdor gang, celestine just because I loved the models! Probably won't even play with them!

I like what I have seen with 8th edition but some rules seem off. I prefer overwatch in 2nd ed because you got to interact in opponents turn. I don't understand why you can attack (or even shoot at) the flying jets etc. 8th probably too simplistic for me. I quite like the strategems but feel they should be baked into the unit data sheets.

I'm glad kill team is a thing. I prefer the scale and so easy to transport and play with 3 or 4 players.

Oh another thing I should have added earlier (and is a little rant actually, sorry!) and also not directly related to 40k as such just GW in general, but...

The quality of their paint brushes and paints have gone down, a lot.

I recently bought some GW paint brushes, about, 8 weeks ago, one of which, an artificer layer brush, very expensive, and it is terrible. I now can only use it to apply washes. My other GW brushes are also crap, compared with a Windsor & Newton brush I got, cheaper, and is better.

I can back this up by the fact that I still have GW brushes from the early 90's (red handle) and some from around 2004 (blue handle) and those, even today, are better than the ones I bought recently.

Also their paints....why do they use those stupid little pots? The seals are terrible, plus you only get about half as much as you used to, granted the actual paint inside isnt too bad.

They moved on to those hexagonal shaped pots, from the earlier ones with flip caps, to the newer ones, which I believe had screw tops - those ones were good.

Now back to flip caps, why? Appears to be a step back.

I don't feel at all guilty now about buying 3rd party paints (mostly use Vallejo) and brushes.

BUDFORCE wrote:
Oh another thing I should have added earlier (and is a little rant actually, sorry!) and also not directly related to 40k as such just GW in general, but...

The quality of their paint brushes and paints have gone down, a lot.

I recently bought some GW paint brushes, about, 8 weeks ago, one of which, an artificer layer brush, very expensive, and it is terrible. I now can only use it to apply washes. My other GW brushes are also crap, compared with a Windsor & Newton brush I got, cheaper, and is better.

I can back this up by the fact that I still have GW brushes from the early 90's (red handle) and some from around 2004 (blue handle) and those, even today, are better than the ones I bought recently.

Also their paints....why do they use those stupid little pots? The seals are terrible, plus you only get about half as much as you used to, granted the actual paint inside isnt too bad.

They moved on to those hexagonal shaped pots, from the earlier ones with flip caps, to the newer ones, which I believe had screw tops - those ones were good.

Now back to flip caps, why? Appears to be a step back.

I don't feel at all guilty now about buying 3rd party paints (mostly use Vallejo) and brushes.

I know! It's almost like they want you to regularly trash brushes and have your paint dry up so you have to buy more!

Oh.

I went and bought a large pack of acrylic paint brushes from a hobby/art shop and compared to how I used to paint it feels like absolute luxury - not trying to paint every model with the same 3 ragged paintbrushes.
I also now have some genuinely tiny brushes for painting eyes and doing edge highlights. Did I mention they were cheap?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I painted my first metal model in a decade or two the other night. Really highlighted how much better the current stuff is to work with.. Thank god for no more metal.

Yeah I have to agree with this. Plastic all the way!

Casts and detail are better, so much easier to work with for conversions and weapon swaps, and of course there's dreaded heavy wobbly models! Some of the big guys were basically impossible to keep together without pinning, which was a bit beyond 10 year old me!

I mostly agree, but I just paid top dollar for a pack of the ancient metal genestealers because I love 'em. There are certain metal models which are totally worth it, imo.

It's also case of do you want to pay 3-4x the price for character models or not.

BUDFORCE wrote:
Oh another thing I should have added earlier (and is a little rant actually, sorry!) and also not directly related to 40k as such just GW in general, but...

The quality of their paint brushes and paints have gone down, a lot.

I recently bought some GW paint brushes, about, 8 weeks ago, one of which, an artificer layer brush, very expensive, and it is terrible. I now can only use it to apply washes. My other GW brushes are also crap, compared with a Windsor & Newton brush I got, cheaper, and is better.

I can back this up by the fact that I still have GW brushes from the early 90's (red handle) and some from around 2004 (blue handle) and those, even today, are better than the ones I bought recently.

Also their paints....why do they use those stupid little pots? The seals are terrible, plus you only get about half as much as you used to, granted the actual paint inside isnt too bad.

They moved on to those hexagonal shaped pots, from the earlier ones with flip caps, to the newer ones, which I believe had screw tops - those ones were good.

Now back to flip caps, why? Appears to be a step back.

I don't feel at all guilty now about buying 3rd party paints (mostly use Vallejo) and brushes.

The screw tops? Really? Those have been the worst bottles GW ever produced. The paints dried out extremely fast. I still have opened working bottles of all incarnations of GW's paints except for the screw-capped ones.
The paint quality is also way better now. Back then when I wanted a red or yellow shoulder pad over a black primer for my Space Wolves, I had first to apply 3 layers of white and then 3 layers of red or yellow to get a decent color. Now I just slap on a coat of Mephiston red and I'm fine.

The special brushes like drybrushes and large base brushes are good. But for Standard brushes size 2 or smaller I go to a hobby store.

I'm still using old metal marines because they still look great. But they are a hassle. Even if you give them a gloss varnish and a matte varnish for pretection, the paint rubs of at the edges. And heaven help if you drop them...
Plastic can be handled careless even without a varnish without fear of paint damage.

And honestly I don't want the days back where I had to cut the heads of Ulrik and a standard chaplain off without damaging the models too badly so I could do a head swap

tneva82 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I painted my first metal model in a decade or two the other night. Really highlighted how much better the current stuff is to work with.. Thank god for no more metal.

Yeah I have to agree with this. Plastic all the way!

Casts and detail are better, so much easier to work with for conversions and weapon swaps, and of course there's dreaded heavy wobbly models! Some of the big guys were basically impossible to keep together without pinning, which was a bit beyond 10 year old me!

I mostly agree, but I just paid top dollar for a pack of the ancient metal genestealers because I love 'em. There are certain metal models which are totally worth it, imo.

It's also case of do you want to pay 3-4x the price for character models or not.

And the answer is: sometimes. Not long ago I nabbed one of the old Games Day exclusive Captains, and I'm pretty happy with that purchase.

Ragnar69 wrote:

Spoiler:

BUDFORCE wrote:
Oh another thing I should have added earlier (and is a little rant actually, sorry!) and also not directly related to 40k as such just GW in general, but...

The quality of their paint brushes and paints have gone down, a lot.

I recently bought some GW paint brushes, about, 8 weeks ago, one of which, an artificer layer brush, very expensive, and it is terrible. I now can only use it to apply washes. My other GW brushes are also crap, compared with a Windsor & Newton brush I got, cheaper, and is better.

I can back this up by the fact that I still have GW brushes from the early 90's (red handle) and some from around 2004 (blue handle) and those, even today, are better than the ones I bought recently.

Also their paints....why do they use those stupid little pots? The seals are terrible, plus you only get about half as much as you used to, granted the actual paint inside isnt too bad.

They moved on to those hexagonal shaped pots, from the earlier ones with flip caps, to the newer ones, which I believe had screw tops - those ones were good.

Now back to flip caps, why? Appears to be a step back.

I don't feel at all guilty now about buying 3rd party paints (mostly use Vallejo) and brushes.

The screw tops? Really? Those have been the worst bottles GW ever produced. The paints dried out extremely fast. I still have opened working bottles of all incarnations of GW's paints except for the screw-capped ones.
The paint quality is also way better now. Back then when I wanted a red or yellow shoulder pad over a black primer for my Space Wolves, I had first to apply 3 layers of white and then 3 layers of red or yellow to get a decent color. Now I just slap on a coat of Mephiston red and I'm fine.

Yeah the screw tops were the worst by far. I still have some flip tops from 20 odd years ago and the paint is still good.

As for paint quality, depends heavily on the color. I like the coverage of some of the old stuff like putrid green, ultramarine blue, etc.

But 2nd edition had a baneblade Wasn't it WD 132?

The_Real_Chris wrote:
But 2nd edition had a baneblade Wasn't it WD 132?

My mate made one - used the template from WD and built it out of cardboard.

If I recall correctly he deliberately scaled it up too. Ridiculous.

I enjoyed the 2nd edition VP system. Where you pulled a mission card that was worth 1/4th the possible VP. Then play. Accomplish the mission get points. Get more points for killing stuff. Try to minimize giving away points.

8th in ITC play doesn't seem to care about giving away points. I just do all I can to get points, there is no defensive play really, just straight throttle down kill all you can play.

Not a huge criticism, but the truth about this edition.

For me, the size creep has been an added bonus because my best memories of 2nd were massive Floor-Hammer games were everyone brought out their resin Gargants, Titans, Baneblades, and every tank and infantry model they had, and we’d push back the bookshelves at the FLGS to play across the floor. Those battles were epic! That were my love for the game truly started.

These tiny skirmish games bore me to tears, I harken for the grand old days of Apocalypse before there was Apocalypse, which is why the new Adaptus Titanicus has my attention more than 8th or Kill Team.

SJ

I love my tank models and flyers to death, but my son and I prefer running the squad level games like Shadow War: Armageddon and Kill Team.

Maybe I ought to try an all tank+ sized game, as I did have fun with the Baneblade/Knight game I did (I'd had that Baneblade since the 90's, was the first time I actually got to use it!).

As for painting, I'm afraid to buy expensive brushes; I get the cheap mini detail brushes from Walmart and try to take care of them only for them to wear out in a month or two. I'd hate to put a good chunk of $$$ into a brush for it to end up in the same state. GW's gold paint - though I love the rich color - seems to be the main one that ends up ruining my brushes.

Better brushes last longer. I’m still using brushes ai bought 20+ years ago. The key to a good brush is it’s ability to hold paint, and the key to long lasting is you cleaning it before storing.

SJ