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Company Commander Stays as-is, except instead of getting the Refractor for free, it's now an optional 10 point upgrade.
Tank Commander No changes yet.
Lord Commissars Refractor Field is now a 10 point upgrade. In addition, Summary Execution now halves Morale losses, rounding up.
Tempestor Prime Good as-is.
Primaris Psyker Good as-is.
Infantry Squad Mandatory Voxes, for 45 point guard squads.
Conscripts No grenades. 6+ armor. Auxilia unit, so no orders or regimental tactics. But back down to 3 points.
Scions Good as-is.
Master of Ordnance Good as-is.
Platoon Commander As with all other Refractor Field models, it is now a 10 point upgrade.
Command Squad Add a Veteran Bodyguard to the squad. Costs 6 points, has 2 attacks and comes with a Chainsword, Laspistol, and Frag Grenades. Can take damage from friendly Guard characters on a 4+ like an Ogryn Bodyguard can.
Special Weapons Squad Instead of "Three models must," make it "Three models may," so that way you can have more ablative wounds if you want.
Veterans Move to troops, Give a 4+ armor.
Tempestus Command Squad Good as-is. Might want to tweak plasma pricing though.
Minisotrum Priest Allow to be taken in twos, but deployed and acting separately, like Space Marine Lieutenants.
Crusaders Good as-is, or at least, I don't know what to do with them.
Enginseers For every two Servitors within 3" of this model, add one to the amount of wounds regained, to a max of +2 wounds regained (1d3+2 for Guard vehicles, 3 for Knights).
Servitors See Enginseer.
Commissar See Lord Commissar.
Officer Of The Fleet I don't even know where to start.
Wyrdvane Psykers Good enough as-is.
Astropath Good as-is.
Ogryn Bodyguard Good as-is.
Ogryns Make Ripper Guns AP-1 in shooting, and either AP-2 in CC or AP-1 and D2.
Bullgryns Good as-is.
Ratlings Find The Best Spot is now 12", not 18".
Hellhounds Hhllhounds are good as-is.
Devil Dogs get straight 3 shots on their cannon.
Banewolves get 3d3 shots and D2 with their main cannon.
Scout Sentinels Sentinel Chainsaw is D2.
Armored Sentinel Sentinel Chainsaw is D2.
Heavy Weapons Squad Good as-is, or at least, I don't know how to fix their incredible glass cannon nature.
Basilisks Minor price hike, probably.
Wyverns Price drop, AP-1 on the mortar, or both.
Hydras Maybe a price drop.
Manticore Minor price hike, probably.
Deathstrike Turn into an expensive stratagem. It does not belong on the table.
Leman Russes Exterminator gets 8 shots, not 4.
Price increase.
Chimera Allow up to two models to shoot out the top in addition to the arrays.
Allow officers to issue orders from within, treating themselves as if they had a Vox.
So, I haven't addressed the Baneblades or unique characters. But I feel this is a good start for an overhaul of IG. If anyone has suggestions (preferably simple ones, and not crazy complicated ones) I'm all ears.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with. If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well. Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/06 21:05:58
Kanluwen wrote: Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with.
If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well.
Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
I'd be fine giving a 4+ to people like Company Commanders, but why do HWS and SWS get it?
That Defensive Emplacement rule is WAY too good. No one else gets protected like that with their heavy weapons.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Kanluwen wrote: Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with.
If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well.
Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
I'd be fine giving a 4+ to people like Company Commanders, but why do HWS and SWS get it?
That Defensive Emplacement rule is WAY too good. No one else gets protected like that with their heavy weapons.
Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Kanluwen wrote: Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with.
If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well.
Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
I'd be fine giving a 4+ to people like Company Commanders, but why do HWS and SWS get it?
Because they're wearing the same damn thing. Company Commanders are wearing Flak Armor, same as everyone else is. Realistically if the Skitarii are rocking 4+ armor saves with a few skirt plates, no helmet, no real shoulder armor, and an armored chestplate...then it's not unreasonable for a Guardsman to be rocking the same.
This does mean that Scions would need to be tweaked, but a big part of that could come into the form of allowing for them to have an Invulnerable Save or a FNP thanks to the automedic system the armor is fluffed as having.
That Defensive Emplacement rule is WAY too good. No one else gets protected like that with their heavy weapons.
Not everyone else has two models pulled from the squad to form a single 2W model either. You'll note that if it gets treated as vehicle squadrons it would mean Rule of 3 comes into play and they can only be taken 3 times tops. Keep them limited to 3 Heavy Weapon Teams per Squad and flatout remove the option for HWTs from Infantry Squads and voila it's not as ridiculous as you think.
Also note that "unable to move" means that placement is key.
I’d say the only real problem with Guard is that infantry squads are 5 to 10 points undercosted, and everything else could probably use a 5% increase in cost.
Every codex could use some internal balance tweaks, but from a competitive standpoint some codices have caught up to being top tier quality with Guard. A small bump in pricing across the board would smooth the edges, I think.
Because they're wearing the same damn thing. Company Commanders are wearing Flak Armor, same as everyone else is. Realistically if the Skitarii are rocking 4+ armor saves with a few skirt plates, no helmet, no real shoulder armor, and an armored chestplate...then it's not unreasonable for a Guardsman to be rocking the same.
Do you mean to say that these guys:
Spoiler:
and this guy:
Spoiler:
Have the same amount of armor?
Besides the fact that the skitarii are part robot, they also have a full torso armor plate, a groin plate, knee plates and thigh guards. And I'm pretty sure that is a helmet.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Just for consistency, would you be for Reivers gaining any form of AP on their knives?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Just for consistency, would you be for Reivers gaining any form of AP on their knives?
Marines are a whole 'nother can of worms.
But yeah, that'd be fine. Reivers need love.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/07 00:53:35
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Just for consistency, would you be for Reivers gaining any form of AP on their knives?
Marines are a whole 'nother can of worms.
But yeah, that'd be fine. Reivers need love.
Fluff-wise, things that are AP -2 include weapons with power fields both imperial and xenos in nature, inferno bolts that are basically magical, and various heavy weapons. Unless there's a lot more to a ripper gun's bayonet than I know, giving it significant AP seems a bit odd. Is there a mechanical argument for it? I was under the impression that ogryn were pretty decent as-is.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
Just for consistency, would you be for Reivers gaining any form of AP on their knives?
Marines are a whole 'nother can of worms.
But yeah, that'd be fine. Reivers need love.
Fluff-wise, things that are AP -2 include weapons with power fields both imperial and xenos in nature, inferno bolts that are basically magical, and various heavy weapons. Unless there's a lot more to a ripper gun's bayonet than I know, giving it significant AP seems a bit odd. Is there a mechanical argument for it? I was under the impression that ogryn were pretty decent as-is.
Bullgryns are good. Ogryns less so.
Maybe just stick to damage 2, but at AP-1? Or even damage d2.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Kanluwen wrote: Refractor Fields are and should remain free, unless you're bumping them to a 4+ save to start with.
If Veterans go to 4+, Infantry Squads and assorted bits(HWS and SWS) need to go to 4+ as well.
Heavy Weapon Squads get the vehicle squadron treatment(bought as one, split out into individuals) and get the 'defensive emplacement' rule. They can't move but they also cannot be targeted unless the nearest unit to the enemy(ala characters).
Deathstrike is an easy fix; turn it into a Fortification instead of a HS. Give it something that allows for it to serve as part of a 'vox relay' and let it interact with the Master of Ordnance in some way.
There's a hell of a lot more I'd do, but you want "simple" and I'm getting ready to go out.
I'd be fine giving a 4+ to people like Company Commanders, but why do HWS and SWS get it?
Because they're wearing the same damn thing. Company Commanders are wearing Flak Armor, same as everyone else is. Realistically if the Skitarii are rocking 4+ armor saves with a few skirt plates, no helmet, no real shoulder armor, and an armored chestplate...then it's not unreasonable for a Guardsman to be rocking the same.
This does mean that Scions would need to be tweaked, but a big part of that could come into the form of allowing for them to have an Invulnerable Save or a FNP thanks to the automedic system the armor is fluffed as having.
That Defensive Emplacement rule is WAY too good. No one else gets protected like that with their heavy weapons.
Not everyone else has two models pulled from the squad to form a single 2W model either. You'll note that if it gets treated as vehicle squadrons it would mean Rule of 3 comes into play and they can only be taken 3 times tops. Keep them limited to 3 Heavy Weapon Teams per Squad and flatout remove the option for HWTs from Infantry Squads and voila it's not as ridiculous as you think.
Also note that "unable to move" means that placement is key.
I haven’t heard of this armor automedic thing? Where did you find that? All I was aware of was that Scion had a unique medpack with quick prosthetics.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
Andykp wrote: Why would a ripper gun be -2AP? It’s basically a big club. And they aren’t ever going to get rid of the death strike now it has a model. I agree it doesn’t belong on a 4 foot table though.
Because of the giant knife on it?
There are a LOT of giant knives in 40k and they don’t have ap-2. Ones with magic or power fields might. Basic ones, no. Basic CC weapons like big knives have no ap. so this is just trying to make a unit function better but ignoring the fluff of them. It’d be a bit like fly because they’d be better with it. (Silly comparison I know but it makes my point, sorry).
I haven’t heard of this armor automedic thing? Where did you find that? All I was aware of was that Scion had a unique medpack with quick prosthetics.
It's been floated in a few places like the Tempestus novella and was hinted at in the Tempestus codex.
The thing on their forearm that has the appearance of a dataslate is called the "slate monitron" and gives them instant access to their Tempestor's orders, intelligence, and it in exchange lets him monitor their vitals and activate dispensers in their armor for stimms and other combat drugs.
Besides the fact that the skitarii are part robot, they also have a full torso armor plate, a groin plate, knee plates and thigh guards. And I'm pretty sure that is a helmet.
Have you built any Rangers?
No, that is not a helmet. It's a gas mask. The Vanguard have a helmet though. They don't actually have a "full torso armor plate"--it's on the upper torso and the lower torso is bionics. The groin plate is part of those bionics. The knee plates are part of their bionic legs and the thigh guards are only covering the front.
The "part robot" bit is represented by their Bionics' 6+ Invulnerable Save.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/07 12:43:01
Most of the things that are a problem with the Guard book aren't a problem with the Guard book, they're a cross-book balance problem with the Imperium in general. Primaris Psykers, for instance, may not be an actual problem but I find them annoying because I'm paying 3x their cost for a Marine Librarian to get +1 S, +1 T, +1 cast per turn, +2 armour, worse powers, and no Invulnerable save.
No, that is not a helmet. It's a gas mask. The Vanguard have a helmet though. They don't actually have a "full torso armor plate"--it's on the upper torso and the lower torso is bionics. The groin plate is part of those bionics. The knee plates are part of their bionic legs and the thigh guards are only covering the front.
The "part robot" bit is represented by their Bionics' 6+ Invulnerable Save.
I'm currently painting some. And the torso is a full armor plate and not just bionics. You can see the overlapping plates from the belt up. The groin plate is still a groin plate, the knee plates are not part of their bionic legs, they are over the fleshy knees, and even if they were over the bionics, it's still armor protecting the bionics and not the bionics itself. And thigh guards offer more than Scions have. Oh, they also have elbow pads, they're just usually under the cloak but you can see them on some.
So, no. I don't see them as having the same amount of armor as guardsmen.
Basilisks
- Point increase
- Slight drop in weapon stats, or ditch "2D6 pick highest"
Commissars
- Changes to Morale, "ignore casualties in the shooting phase" or "half number of casualties lost to Morale" would be good.
Infantry Squads
- Ability to take more than 10 in a squad without needing Strategems
- Give the Sergeant a Lasgun!
Conscripts
- Drop back to 3pts
- Lose <Regiment> keyword, but no problems for the rest of the detachment.
Leman Russ
- Vanquisher Cannon goes to S9, +1 to hit against Vehicles
Veterans
- Autogun becomes S4 Ap- Assault 2
- Shotgun becomes S3 Ap-1, S4 in half range
- Option to take 4+ armour or some sort of Infiltrate/move bonus.
This way, the Autoguns have an advantage over the Lasgun, but lose out on amount of firepower from FRFSRF. Shotgun gains a point of Ap so it doesn't become obsolete against the Autogun.
Autoguns going to S4 AP- changes Cultists and Genestealer Cultists. Nope. There is no reason to change the door prize for people converting crap into being better than the hallmark gun of the Guard.
Veterans should be granted Hellguns as part of the 4+ armor package.
Conscripts getting Auxilia has been suggested time and time again. That alone would be a huge deal; making it so they're not able to fulfill a Mandatory Troops Slot kills any potential CP battery nonsense with them going back to 3pts each...
And giving them a 6+ save and Autoguns is even better to pigeonhole them into the role they're supposed to have, which is untested recruits or pressganged civilians.
We don't need anything to allow for bigger squads. Nobody I know that isn't trying to play Guard as "Lulz WWII/WWI!" wants that.
Kanluwen wrote: Autoguns going to S4 AP- changes Cultists and Genestealer Cultists. Nope. There is no reason to change the door prize for people converting crap into being better than the hallmark gun of the Guard.
Veterans should be granted Hellguns as part of the 4+ armor package.
Conscripts getting Auxilia has been suggested time and time again. That alone would be a huge deal; making it so they're not able to fulfill a Mandatory Troops Slot kills any potential CP battery nonsense with them going back to 3pts each...
And giving them a 6+ save and Autoguns is even better to pigeonhole them into the role they're supposed to have, which is untested recruits or pressganged civilians.
We don't need anything to allow for bigger squads. Nobody I know that isn't trying to play Guard as "Lulz WWII/WWI!" wants that.
Conscripts are your "big" squads.
I agree with the majority of your statements, though personally I feel like Vets should NOT have access to hotshot lasguns. Giving them access to a 4+ save already steps on the Scions' toes a LOT. At this point, there's not much to differentiate them besides regimental traits and Scions being able to deep strike. Vets basically should be what they were before in 5th ed and choose between being Grenadiers (4+ save), Forward Sentries (Camo Cloaks and Snare Mines, the Snare Mines being a rule that causes D3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6 per enemy unit who charge the unit in cover) and Demolitions (Melta bombs for the unit and a demo charge).
I agree with the majority of your statements, though personally I feel like Vets should NOT have access to hotshot lasguns. Giving them access to a 4+ save already steps on the Scions' toes a LOT. At this point, there's not much to differentiate them besides regimental traits and Scions being able to deep strike.
They absolutely should get access to Hellguns. Grenadiers were an actual unit selection rather than a "Veteran loadout" before the Cruddace-ening of the Guard book. They were Stormtroopers without access to DS/Infiltrate. That alone makes it so they don't step too much on the Scions' toes--and let's be frank, Scions could use a bit of a reconcepting as well.
I've suggested before that Veterans(and basic Guard Infantry Squads) get access to some more interesting Heavy Weapons(note: not Heavy Weapons Teams) that would further allow for a differentiating. Since they've been so adamant to try to paint Hotshot Lasguns as their own thing compared to Hellguns now, we might as well just make the Hellguns for Veterans exactly that: a different weapon entirely.
Veterans should be granted Hellguns as part of the 4+ armor package.
Would it be better to simply introduce a unit called Grenadiers that do all that and just move veterans back to troops, and adjust their price relative to IS?
The Grenadiers could then be used as the more generic term for things like Karskin while also allowing the other regiments to use it.
The core difference between them and Scions would be no deepstrike, but access to some sweet grenades, basically super versions of frag and krak, and being incorporated into regiments. So while Scions are the lone wolves way up front, the grenadiers work with the other troops.
Also, I thought hellguns and hot-shot lasguns were still the same thing. My memory might be faulty, but I think hellguns are referenced under the scion background section in the codex.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hellguns were just the oldschool S3 AP5 Lasguns weren't they?
Yes, but they've changed a bit. Waay back they were S4 lasguns, then they were just S3 AP5, then they became S3 AP3 which gave us the current version. Hellguns and Hot-shot lasguns have always been synonymous IIRC.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hellguns were just the oldschool S3 AP5 Lasguns weren't they?
Yep, but Cruddace opened the door for some differentiation. They removed the text referring to the Scions' weaponry as "hellguns"(it took two editions! they missed a reference to it in the copy/paste for Stormtroopers from the Doctrines to first Cruddace book and copy/pasted the same bit from Stormtroopers to Scions) and removed it from the Krieg Grenadiers this edition.
I've been looking at Hellguns as an option that's a sidestep from Hotshots and standard Lasguns
Something like this:
18" S4 AP-1 Assault 2
Putting them as Assault rather than Rapid Fire opens up an interesting venue for them to actually have a niche compared to Hotshots while giving them shorter range but point higher of Strength and a point less of AP means that Scions can still have a place assuming we can ever get rid of the concept of them just being suicide drop squads.
