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2018/10/17 08:25:10
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Im curious to see what the general thought on this is currently. Im well aware that currently 8th edition seems to give favor to the ranged game, as opposed to close combat, but im wondering here. What armies, single codex, are able to pull of melee as their primary focus in today's game environment.
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Oh stop complaining, its for the greater good... Now get in the box!
Owner of R.S. Commission Studios. PM For a quote. Link in profile. |
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2018/10/17 08:34:00
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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biggest ones I'd say are:
Tyranids do well as a speedy assault force with Swarmlord, Stealers and Hormagants, but can struggle against heavy armor.
Chaos has some excellent options, between Bloodletters, Tzaangors, Cultists, and heavy hitters like Daemon Princes, they can throw down hard.
Orkz are already really strong just massing Boyz, although it's boring as hell and nobody wants to collect that army that is obviously just going to be a holdover to the codex. (But playtesters have said they are getting a really good dex so no matter how you look at it they probably deserve a mention)
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P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. |
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2018/10/17 08:42:12
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Problem with orks for h2h is that they don't actually GET to close combat. Their h2h ability is there just to THREATEN h2h if enemy comes closer(unless it's even bigger fish in h2h department at which points orks are screwed). The h2h threat exists just to keep enemy in DZ shooting ork army to death and hopefully allow orks to win on objectives. Getting to h2h with numbers that would make impact is not going to happen.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2018/10/17 08:53:14
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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8th edition doesn't particularly favor ranged or melee, the armies that succeed at the highest level tend to have strong elements in both categories. I think if you really want to roll with nothing but melee units your best bet would be Tyranids but the army would certainly be better with a ranged component.
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2018/10/17 12:18:20
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe
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Arachnofiend wrote:8th edition doesn't particularly favor ranged or melee, the armies that succeed at the highest level tend to have strong elements in both categories. I think if you really want to roll with nothing but melee units your best bet would be Tyranids but the army would certainly be better with a ranged component.
Not true.
Look up any Khorne Daemons, World Eaters, Tyranids melee lists on youtube and see them be destroyed.
This edition favors shooting...ALOT.
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6000 World Eaters/Khorne |
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2018/10/17 12:40:50
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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After Nerf after nerf to CC this edition definitely favors shooting
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P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. |
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2018/10/17 13:48:55
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut
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As a WE player, I can tell you I've had to sacrifice a couple slots for shooting. My list I ran this past weekend was pretty good, I ended up 3-2. Thanks to my Questor Traitoris detachment of a Knight and 2 Helverins it gave me the shooting ability to threaten any army. I also got a ton of compliments on how fun my list was to play against because it was well rounded and not static.
Well rounded lists are funner to play with and against, as far as winning goes all the top lists were either daemon swarm/DP spam or shooting lines.
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2018/10/17 14:02:04
Subject: Re:most optimized melee army
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Chaos and Nids by a landslide.
You know, most people think the turn 1 deepstrike nerf hurt assault armies....I am not one of those people.
I have seen two approaches to assault armies that seem to work well. (Don't tell the "expert" internet make believe tourney players, the guys who play alot know there armies out there that work really well.)
1. Fast moving distractions plus turn 2+ charging super units.
Examples:
a. Bloodletter bomb with skull cannon and Khorne Dog support, throw in a Warlord Thirster with armor of scorn for a distraction carnafex fun.
b. Nids, pick a faction, lots of ways to do this.
c. Nurgle Pox riders deathstar with infiltrating nurglings and DP -1 to hit psychic support. Throw in Epi-pen for shenanigans.
2. Mechanized mobile armies, the trick is to go extra cheap and go heavy on attacks and power armor with cheap transports like rhinos. Most armies cannot handle that much armor.
Examples:
a. Sisters hilariously have some really good/tough units like repentia, celestians, Saint Celestian, etc
b. Raven guard and Blood Angels
c. I think orks once the codex drops will fit into this group for the shear amount of transports and assault vehicles they seem to be getting.
Don't let folks believe combat is dead, you can really surprise an opponent with these lists, make um sweat.
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2018/10/17 14:11:09
Subject: Re:most optimized melee army
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Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut
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sfshilo wrote:Chaos and Nids by a landslide.
You know, most people think the turn 1 deepstrike nerf hurt assault armies....I am not one of those people.
I have seen two approaches to assault armies that seem to work well. (Don't tell the "expert" internet make believe tourney players, the guys who play alot know there armies out there that work really well.)
1. Fast moving distractions plus turn 2+ charging super units.
Examples:
a. Bloodletter bomb with skull cannon and Khorne Dog support, throw in a Warlord Thirster with armor of scorn for a distraction carnafex fun.
b. Nids, pick a faction, lots of ways to do this.
c. Nurgle Pox riders deathstar with infiltrating nurglings and DP -1 to hit psychic support. Throw in Epi-pen for shenanigans.
2. Mechanized mobile armies, the trick is to go extra cheap and go heavy on attacks and power armor with cheap transports like rhinos. Most armies cannot handle that much armor.
Examples:
a. Sisters hilariously have some really good/tough units like repentia, celestians, Saint Celestian, etc
b. Raven guard and Blood Angels
c. I think orks once the codex drops will fit into this group for the shear amount of transports and assault vehicles they seem to be getting.
Don't let folks believe combat is dead, you can really surprise an opponent with these lists, make um sweat.
You are correct, everytime my Berserkers hit my opponents line they were slaughtered. Most top lists don't prepare against good melee units. My big knight is a huge distraction that everyone goes for first.
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2018/10/17 14:37:36
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Pure melle?
I'd like to add Harlequins to the list.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2018/10/17 15:21:15
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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My Khorne Daemon list has a trio of Skullcannons being babysat by a Daemon Prince and some heralds and doggies as a front screen. It’s backed up by two bloodletter bombs waiting to DS in and pound face. I don’t know if it’ll end up being ultra competitive, but the Prince has the Crimson Crown to let the cannons go bananas on attacks if they roll any 6s.
I don’t mind (and realize the necessity of) shooting, but I’m a melee player at heart. If I can’t chop somebody’s big scary unit, I’m not enjoying myself. Lol.
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Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind. |
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2018/10/17 16:25:47
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Harlequins need Skyweavers and fusion pistols to take down big threats.
They're not going to punch IKs to death.
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2018/10/17 17:01:43
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader
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SHUPPET wrote:biggest ones I'd say are:
Tyranids do well as a speedy assault force with Swarmlord, Stealers and Hormagants, but can struggle against heavy armor.
Chaos has some excellent options, between Bloodletters, Tzaangors, Cultists, and heavy hitters like Daemon Princes, they can throw down hard.
Orkz are already really strong just massing Boyz, although it's boring as hell and nobody wants to collect that army that is obviously just going to be a holdover to the codex. (But playtesters have said they are getting a really good dex so no matter how you look at it they probably deserve a mention)
So that's why Orks and Tyranids have done so well in GTs lately. Oh, wait...
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2018/10/17 17:07:33
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Toofast wrote: SHUPPET wrote:biggest ones I'd say are:
Tyranids do well as a speedy assault force with Swarmlord, Stealers and Hormagants, but can struggle against heavy armor.
Chaos has some excellent options, between Bloodletters, Tzaangors, Cultists, and heavy hitters like Daemon Princes, they can throw down hard.
Orkz are already really strong just massing Boyz, although it's boring as hell and nobody wants to collect that army that is obviously just going to be a holdover to the codex. (But playtesters have said they are getting a really good dex so no matter how you look at it they probably deserve a mention)
So that's why Orks and Tyranids have done so well in GTs lately. Oh, wait...
Check out the latest episode of The Best General. Very interesting talk about a Tyranid list built to beat top table Eldar. A lot Hormagaunts and Stealers, Swarmlord and Old One Eye. Some Dakka Flyrants too, but it's mostly melee.
Post FAQ, it may be possible.
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2018/10/17 17:50:05
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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fresus wrote:
Harlequins need Skyweavers and fusion pistols to take down big threats.
They're not going to punch IKs to death.
Well - they are always going to have fusion pistols. They reroll all wounds and CC though with str 5. They are great at killing everything.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2018/10/17 18:25:12
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Sneaky Kommando
Malus Dei
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Well close combat is very powerful, but it's also very difficult to get your points worth (especially now with more nerfs, y you nerf fly gw? Stop it.). Bullets touch you before axes, however if you do it right you will shut down a gunline with only half your close combats making it.
I'd say custodes bikers are efficient, they're tough but having some finess with them goes a LONG way.
Berzerkers are fantastic, but they have a glass butt...more finess is required here even though people dont do that.
That knight with a butt ton of attacks, youre getting your pound of flesh with that thing.
Bloodletter bombs are still surprisingly effective, although they are more of a scalpel type unit due too those pesky screens.
Tzaangor bombs are always tasty.
Those are the stand outs to me personally. Harlies would be here, but they nipped them in the butt :(
Oh and about 120 ork boyz will do work.
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Thy Mum |
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2018/10/17 19:57:51
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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Slaanesh Daemons.
They're fast, can pin you, and, with proper support, have a ton of +1S attacks that 'Rend' and always go first.
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2018/10/17 21:07:47
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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Toofast wrote: SHUPPET wrote:biggest ones I'd say are:
Tyranids do well as a speedy assault force with Swarmlord, Stealers and Hormagants, but can struggle against heavy armor.
Chaos has some excellent options, between Bloodletters, Tzaangors, Cultists, and heavy hitters like Daemon Princes, they can throw down hard.
Orkz are already really strong just massing Boyz, although it's boring as hell and nobody wants to collect that army that is obviously just going to be a holdover to the codex. (But playtesters have said they are getting a really good dex so no matter how you look at it they probably deserve a mention)
So that's why Orks and Tyranids have done so well in GTs lately. Oh, wait...
I mean, none of that is exclusive with them still being the best melee factions, and the post itself basically addresses why Orkz haven't, and my next post talks about how bad I feel assault is in 8th right now...
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P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. |
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2018/10/17 21:10:09
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Custodes armies are pretty great in assault. I wouldn't want to run them without a small Guard battalion, though.
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2018/10/17 22:46:41
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Clousseau
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Imperial Guard.
*Bullgryns with shields
*Priest
*Straken
*Catachan Infantry squads
And you can support it all with the firepower to handle other things.
Each infantry guy will have 3 attacks at strength 4. They can receive orders, and you can combine squads so the Fight Twice order really hits hard.
You have effortless psychic, 3 primaris psykers would run you less than 150 points. That means key targets would be -1 to hit and also +1 save.
You can easily splice in a Knight as well, and Knights are beast in melee.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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2018/10/17 22:54:30
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Brutallica wrote: Arachnofiend wrote:8th edition doesn't particularly favor ranged or melee, the armies that succeed at the highest level tend to have strong elements in both categories. I think if you really want to roll with nothing but melee units your best bet would be Tyranids but the army would certainly be better with a ranged component.
Not true.
Look up any Khorne Daemons, World Eaters, Tyranids melee lists on youtube and see them be destroyed.
This edition favors shooting...ALOT.
Did you read my post? I already said that pure melee doesn't really work. Pure shooting also doesn't really work. The best lists have been Guard artillery and Custodes Bike Captains, Dark Reapers and Shining Spears, etc. etc. Armies that overload into a single phase haven't been winning tournaments since Guilliman+Razorbacks or Stormravens was the big thing.
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2018/10/17 23:11:21
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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Arachnofiend wrote: Brutallica wrote: Arachnofiend wrote:8th edition doesn't particularly favor ranged or melee, the armies that succeed at the highest level tend to have strong elements in both categories. I think if you really want to roll with nothing but melee units your best bet would be Tyranids but the army would certainly be better with a ranged component.
Not true.
Look up any Khorne Daemons, World Eaters, Tyranids melee lists on youtube and see them be destroyed.
This edition favors shooting...ALOT.
Did you read my post? I already said that pure melee doesn't really work. Pure shooting also doesn't really work. The best lists have been Guard artillery and Custodes Bike Captains, Dark Reapers and Shining Spears, etc. etc. Armies that overload into a single phase haven't been winning tournaments since Guilliman+Razorbacks or Stormravens was the big thing.
The fact that Guilliman gunline and Tau are STILL outperforming Tyranids every tournament says to me that you're wrong about something there
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P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. |
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2018/10/17 23:40:26
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
UK
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This edition blows for melee armies it's so heavily slanted to shooting.
Each rules change nerfs assault more.
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2018/10/17 23:55:16
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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hobojebus wrote:This edition blows for melee armies it's so heavily slanted to shooting.
Each rules change nerfs assault more.
That's not true - melee has never been thing strong. Reliable turn 1 charges - multiple pile ins - multiple rounds of the fight phase and you always fight first when you charge? Plus half the crap in the game can't fall back and shoot - including most vehicles? Thing is - there is no reason not to include both elements on the same unit anymore. Knights are great because they shoot you up and then charge you. Spears are the same way. Harlie bikes - the same. Hive tyrants - the same. Custodies bikes - the same. There are a few pure melee gimmicks but you are basically just relying on stratagems for those. The issue is 1 dimensional armies are not good. Should they be? Really? Nah. 1 dimensional armies should suck.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2018/10/18 00:10:14
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Xenomancers wrote:hobojebus wrote:This edition blows for melee armies it's so heavily slanted to shooting.
Each rules change nerfs assault more.
That's not true - melee has never been thing strong. Reliable turn 1 charges - multiple pile ins - multiple rounds of the fight phase and you always fight first when you charge? Plus half the crap in the game can't fall back and shoot - including most vehicles? Thing is - there is no reason not to include both elements on the same unit anymore. Knights are great because they shoot you up and then charge you. Spears are the same way. Harlie bikes - the same. Hive tyrants - the same. Custodies bikes - the same. There are a few pure melee gimmicks but you are basically just relying on stratagems for those. The issue is 1 dimensional armies are not good. Should they be? Really? Nah. 1 dimensional armies should suck.
Then give my army more shooting prowess. I like Nurgle Daemons-why should I be punished for that?
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2018/10/18 01:51:33
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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SHUPPET wrote: Arachnofiend wrote: Brutallica wrote: Arachnofiend wrote:8th edition doesn't particularly favor ranged or melee, the armies that succeed at the highest level tend to have strong elements in both categories. I think if you really want to roll with nothing but melee units your best bet would be Tyranids but the army would certainly be better with a ranged component.
Not true.
Look up any Khorne Daemons, World Eaters, Tyranids melee lists on youtube and see them be destroyed.
This edition favors shooting...ALOT.
Did you read my post? I already said that pure melee doesn't really work. Pure shooting also doesn't really work. The best lists have been Guard artillery and Custodes Bike Captains, Dark Reapers and Shining Spears, etc. etc. Armies that overload into a single phase haven't been winning tournaments since Guilliman+Razorbacks or Stormravens was the big thing.
The fact that Guilliman gunline and Tau are STILL outperforming Tyranids every tournament says to me that you're wrong about something there
in fairness a Gulliman backed gunline also has a strong melee component to it as well in the form of well... gulliman,
not saying a gulliman gunline is just as strong melee but it's not a list that'll instantly melt if you can deliver some melee elements into it.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2018/10/18 17:49:21
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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JNAProductions wrote: Xenomancers wrote:hobojebus wrote:This edition blows for melee armies it's so heavily slanted to shooting.
Each rules change nerfs assault more.
That's not true - melee has never been thing strong. Reliable turn 1 charges - multiple pile ins - multiple rounds of the fight phase and you always fight first when you charge? Plus half the crap in the game can't fall back and shoot - including most vehicles? Thing is - there is no reason not to include both elements on the same unit anymore. Knights are great because they shoot you up and then charge you. Spears are the same way. Harlie bikes - the same. Hive tyrants - the same. Custodies bikes - the same. There are a few pure melee gimmicks but you are basically just relying on stratagems for those. The issue is 1 dimensional armies are not good. Should they be? Really? Nah. 1 dimensional armies should suck.
Then give my army more shooting prowess. I like Nurgle Daemons-why should I be punished for that?
You aren't - DG are a top teir army. They aren't 1 dimensional ether. They excell at defense / psychic / and close combat.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2018/10/18 18:37:12
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Nurgle Daemons are not Death Guard.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2018/10/19 12:01:22
Subject: most optimized melee army
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Harlie players are just greatful that flamers are not popular this edition.
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