Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Say I have a Space Marine captain with a weapon such as a thunder hammer, who is within one inch of enemy models in the fight phase. For whatever reason I decide that it would not be tactically advantageous to wipe out whatever I am fighting, but I cannot choose to forgo my attacks and there is a good chance that his thunder hammer attacks will prove fatal.

I know that a model with no listed mêlée options is assumed to have a basic close combat weapon that it can use in the fight phase. By extension, does my captain have access to a basic close combat weapon, and can I declare that he is attacking with that instead of swinging his thunder hammer in order to minimise the damage?

Bilge Rat wrote:
Say I have a Space Marine captain with a weapon such as a thunder hammer, who is within one inch of enemy models in the fight phase. For whatever reason I decide that it would not be tactically advantageous to wipe out whatever I am fighting, but I cannot choose to forgo my attacks and there is a good chance that his thunder hammer attacks will prove fatal.

I know that a model with no listed mêlée options is assumed to have a basic close combat weapon that it can use in the fight phase. By extension, does my captain have access to a basic close combat weapon, and can I declare that he is attacking with that instead of swinging his thunder hammer in order to minimise the damage?

My understanding is that ONLY models with no listed melee weapons are assumed to have a basic close combat weapon. Your Hammer Marine only has a Hammer. Your best bet is to use a CP re-roll to hope you miss one of the hits.

 Kriswall wrote:

Bilge Rat wrote:
Say I have a Space Marine captain with a weapon such as a thunder hammer, who is within one inch of enemy models in the fight phase. For whatever reason I decide that it would not be tactically advantageous to wipe out whatever I am fighting, but I cannot choose to forgo my attacks and there is a good chance that his thunder hammer attacks will prove fatal.

I know that a model with no listed mêlée options is assumed to have a basic close combat weapon that it can use in the fight phase. By extension, does my captain have access to a basic close combat weapon, and can I declare that he is attacking with that instead of swinging his thunder hammer in order to minimise the damage?

My understanding is that ONLY models with no listed melee weapons are assumed to have a basic close combat weapon. Your Hammer Marine only has a Hammer. Your best bet is to use a CP re-roll to hope you miss one of the hits.

Correct. From 'Choose Melee Weapon' (main rulebook, pg. 183):

If a datasheet does not list any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile...

4. Choose Melee Weapon
Each time a model makes a close combat attack, it uses a
melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with
are described on its datasheet. If a datasheet does not list
any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a
close combat weapon, which has the following profile:

If the datasheet of your captain lists any melee weapons then you dont have the basic close combat weapon.

 p5freak wrote:

4. Choose Melee Weapon
Each time a model makes a close combat attack, it uses a
melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with
are described on its datasheet. If a datasheet does not list
any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a
close combat weapon, which has the following profile:

If the datasheet of your captain lists any melee weapons then you dont have the basic close combat weapon.

Interesting...

Does this mean that a T'au Battlesuit Commander with Fusion Blades actually can't use 2 of its 4 attacks then?

The Fusion Blades say you can only make 2 attacks with them, but the Commander has 4 total.

it WAS the case before the FAQ changed it so that all models have a CCW

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

Page 183 – Choose Melee Weapon Change the second sentence to read:

‘In addition to their other weapons, all models are assumed to be equipped with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile:’

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
it WAS the case before the FAQ changed it so that all models have a CCW

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

Page 183 – Choose Melee Weapon Change the second sentence to read:

‘In addition to their other weapons, all models are assumed to be equipped with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile:’

Nice

I can just picture a space marine holding a huge hammer in one hand whilst trying to poke a daemon with his penknife

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
it WAS the case before the FAQ changed it so that all models have a CCW

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

Page 183 – Choose Melee Weapon Change the second sentence to read:

‘In addition to their other weapons, all models are assumed to be equipped with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile:’

Interesting. I didn't realize that was in there. Admittedly, it's rare that a player would prefer a weaker weapon, but it can happen.

Guys, the errata changed it so all models have a basic CCW that uses their profile. You ALWAYS have the option of using your basic profile in the Fight Phase.

Bilge Rat wrote:
I can just picture a space marine holding a huge hammer in one hand whilst trying to poke a daemon with his penknife

I choose to imagine he's bending over to retrieve the hammer that's been knocked from his hand, and casually draws and sticks his combat knife through the daemons eye whilst doing so.

The errata was necessary to deal with the various Melee Weapons that limit the number of attacks a model can take. Without the change, units would be unable to make their full allotment of attacks if armed with such as weapon, like Tau Fusion Blades (2 attacks only), since they would have no other weapon to make an attack with.

That being said, it also gives the option to not use your more effective weapon in combat.

I can see this being an advantage if you have an ability that makes people unable to fall back. (SKarbrand, fiends of slaneesh,Wyches)

Instead of destroying the unit outright, especially if that unit is really weak, you can actually just cripple them and then have a good laugh when your opponent realizes that you essentially made that CC unit invincible from shooting during their turn.

It's rather tactical when you think about it

mchammadad wrote:
I can see this being an advantage if you have an ability that makes people unable to fall back. (SKarbrand, fiends of slaneesh,Wyches)

Instead of destroying the unit outright, especially if that unit is really weak, you can actually just cripple them and then have a good laugh when your opponent realizes that you essentially made that CC unit invincible from shooting during their turn.

It's rather tactical when you think about it

it was used to good effect in the GT ... Dark eldar CC specialists used it to scrape the paint off a hellhound they had surrounded rather than obliterate it .. to lock themselves in combat and prevent the knight shooting them in mid table.

yes, I agree it's a valid tactic used to good effect

 Kriswall wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
it WAS the case before the FAQ changed it so that all models have a CCW

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

Page 183 – Choose Melee Weapon Change the second sentence to read:

‘In addition to their other weapons, all models are assumed to be equipped with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile:’

Interesting. I didn't realize that was in there. Admittedly, it's rare that a player would prefer a weaker weapon, but it can happen.

Not that unusual. Your turn, enemy model is surrounded so can't fall back. You pretty much never want to kill that unless it's something like knight(and maybe not even then). If it was possible you would indeed choose to NOT attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Raichase wrote:

Bilge Rat wrote:
I can just picture a space marine holding a huge hammer in one hand whilst trying to poke a daemon with his penknife

I choose to imagine he's bending over to retrieve the hammer that's been knocked from his hand, and casually draws and sticks his combat knife through the daemons eye whilst doing so.

Interesting how that happens only when it is helpful for marine Nah in reality it's because marine doesn't want to kill target most likely due to being shot to death if he kills it.

Ork Meganob holding a struggling guardsman in his powerklaw as a meat shield, half-heartedly knocking his shoota against him to pretend they are locked in combat...

seems legit

Where it gets kind of silly is the Chaos Hellbrute. They had a rule to encourage people to take two Melee Weapons- to get an attack. Now any Helbrute armed with either a Helbrute Fist or a Power Scourge meets that requirement. Because they have their Super Weapon + the generic CCW all models come with.

Its kind of silly, and obviously not intended- especially since they FAQd the price of a second fist down to 10 points. Its also not that big a deal, since it still doesn't really make Helbrute's worth it anyway!

Just consider the basic CCW attacks to be the effects of your human(oid) shield struggling to escape your chokehold.

tneva82 wrote:
Interesting how that happens only when it is helpful for marine Nah in reality it's because marine doesn't want to kill target most likely due to being shot to death if he kills it.

With consequence free Fall Back he's going to be shot to death anyway.

 akaean wrote:
Where it gets kind of silly is the Chaos Hellbrute. They had a rule to encourage people to take two Melee Weapons- to get an attack. Now any Helbrute armed with either a Helbrute Fist or a Power Scourge meets that requirement. Because they have their Super Weapon + the generic CCW all models come with.

Its kind of silly, and obviously not intended- especially since they FAQd the price of a second fist down to 10 points. Its also not that big a deal, since it still doesn't really make Helbrute's worth it anyway!

Now imagine a rampaging Helbrute with two huge clawed fists trying to gently poke an opponent with his foot in order to avoid doing too much damage

Bilge Rat wrote:

Now imagine a rampaging Helbrute with two huge clawed fists trying to gently poke an opponent with his foot in order to avoid doing too much damage

ME NO KILL SQUISHY, ME WUB SQUISHY .... NOOOOO SQUISHY ... NO DIE!

Now imagine a rampaging Helbrute with two huge clawed fists trying to gently poke an opponent with his foot in order to avoid doing too much damage

Now add in "Slaaneshi" before Hellbrute and that poking becomes alot more chaotic and less like a friendly dog playing with a squishy toy.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Now add in "Slaaneshi" before Hellbrute and that poking becomes alot more chaotic and less like a friendly dog playing with a squishy toy.

Please, the Slaaneshi Hellbrute would pick them up place its twin Blast Master directly next to the poor soul's face, and force them to listen to a New Kids on the Block revival album