Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here are some suggestions I've been rolling around in my brain for a while. Thoughts?

1. Give autarchs access to the shadow spectre's prism blaster.

2. Add an autarch variant equipped with the spectre jet pack and holo-fields. Probably roughly the cost of an autarch with hawk wings. The -1 to hit is a big deal, but you don't gain deepstrike from it. Also, the -1 to hit is mostly a fight phase thing as the autarch is a character and thus unlikely to be on the receiving end of a lot of attacks in the shooting phase.

3. Lower the cost of warlock conclaves on foot by about 10 points apiece. Their 1d6 smite is nice, but they give up a lot by being in a squad.

4. Lower the minimum squad size of guardian defenders and storm guardians to five. Make weapon platforms 1 per 5 models. This makes guardians the cheapest troop choice (appropriate for millitia compared to avengers and rangers) and allows craftworlders to field batallions more affordably thus reducing reliance upon drukhari for CP. Compared to an IG infantry squad with a heavy weapon, a 5 man guardian squad with a heavy weapon would be less numerous, similarly killy point for point, have more mobility, and would be more reliant upon that mobility to bring their better-but-shorter-range shuriken catapults to bare.

So it makes mono-faction more viable and makes eldar feel less numerous and more mobile than humans without making guardians significantly more lethal than guardsmen.

5. Make storm guardian special weapon options 2 per 5. This makes it possible to build either a competent 10 man fusion/flamer team team in a serpent or an interestingly-flexible blob if you're inclined to deepstrike them.

6. Consider lowering the BS/WS of guardian defenders to 4+. Storm Guardians, by virtue of being more "elite" shock troops (and an unpopular unit) can retain their 3+ BS/WS. This makes changes 4 and 5 more palatable and reasserts the Avengers' role as the primary frontline rifleman. If you need bodies, you take guardians and try to keep the guardian defenders away from the front lines. If you want a unit with skill and proper armor, go with an avenger.

7. Raise the maximum squad size of avengers to 20. Fluff-wise, they're the most common first-draft warrior of most craftworlds (especially Biel-Tan). Mechanically, this allows you to utilize them in a similar fashion to how guardian defenders are used in the official rules now (i.e. as a webway bomb).

8. Give warp spiders the Fly keyword, and clarify that using their special jump to fall back from combat still allows them to shoot afterwards. Increase their cost by a couple of points (2 or 3?) if necessary. I'm of the opinion that spiders are almost good as-is but that their inability to fall back and shoot (without spending CP) after firing their 12" guns makes them too easy to shut down. Bouncing out of combat and firing another volley seems like a very fluffy mechanic for a unit of Nightcrawler/Tracer types.

9. Change the falcon's battlefield role to Dedicated Transport, and give it Deepstrike. Probably for free. Currently, the falcon is a less-versatile, less durable alternative to the waveserpent. Unless you really want a pulselaser on a tank (instead of on a crimson hunter), you just don't have a lot of reason to field the falcon over the serpent at the moment. Making it a deepstriking DT makes a cloudstrike-heavy army more viable (you don't have to pay CP to DS the falcon and its cargo) and gives the falcon more of a niche. I'd love to put some fire dragons or 5 man storm guardian squads with a pair of fusion guns in a deepstriking vehicle more often.

10. Change Alaitoc's Fieldcraft to something more Jormungader-esque. Models without Fly count as being in cover at all times. As a faction, we have plenty of ways to impose to-hit penalties as-is. Alaitoc stacking to-hit debuffs is kind of a known problem. Plus, this provides something of a boost to units like dragons, scorpions, or guardians that want to get in close to the enemy while still benefitting Alaitoc's iconic ranger units.

11. Change Iyanden to +1 WS/BS when more than half of your army's starting units (regardless of keywords) have been destroyed. The current craftworld trait doesn't really benefit Iyanden's iconic wraith units and actively encourages you to field lots of warm bodies. Which is actively contrary to Iyanden's fluff. My proposed WS/BS bonus is meant to convey the whole "a cornered animal fights twice as hard" thing while (theoretically) being balanced by the fact that you have to have lost huge chunks of your force before it kicks in. I don't think it's unresonable to keep the "double your wounds for damage chart purposes" part, but you could probably limit that to wraith units to tone it down. This would make Iyanden less good as the "durable vehicles" faction, but I'd argue that it helps cement Ulthwe's position in that role with their 6+ FNP.

12. Make Saim-Hann's "ignore the to-hit penalties with heavy weapons" thing apply to all units; not just bikes. This changes how our tanks perform considerably while also making Saim-Hann enticing for fans of war walkers and wraith lords.

13. Not strictly an Asuryani thing, but make the webway gate an exception to the turn 1 reserves rule, and make the gate-related harlequin stratagems general Aeldari stratagems instead. Also, have models arrive from it at the start of the movement phase so that they can move normally after arriving. That thing looks cool, has a reasonable pricetag, but is utterly unusable at the moment. These changes would make it possible to bring a unit in even if the gate was destroyed on turn 1 and would open up some combos for things like banshees or harlequins or even wraith units.

1-2. I can be fine with that. Autarchs having the option for all the equipment should be a thing.
3. Once again I agree. Them going up in cost was pretty silly.
4. Guardians have always had this as a thing to be at minimum 10 dudes. Chaos Marines do the same thing with their Cultists. If you want cheap, you get the Elite dudes. Simple as that. Choose what you want: more bodies or better fighters. Eldar already have fine access to CP and Autarchs have an ability to regenerate CP already.
5. Honestly the Storm Guardian entry just needs to be removed. It's pointless. It also makes no sense for fluff with a supposed dying race to use a militia with pistols and melee weapons when Shuriken Catapults are readily available. I haven't even heard of Eldar players liking their fluff either so this isn't a loss at all.
6. Guardians I'm fine with going back to WS/BS4+ as long as they get a point decrease.
7. This is a sidegrade. It doesn't fix why someone might not take the unit.
8. Uh don't Spiders already have Fly?
9.Eh sure I'm fine with that.
10. Negative penalties are fine. Going beyond -2 isn't. Disagree with the change entirely.
11. You do realize how busted that would be, right? Bad idea is bad.
12. Yeah I'm board with this. Honestly outside Sam Hain the only one I really want to change is Biel Tan. That's just a really bad trait as a whole.
13. I have no comment. I know nothing about the portal thing outside that Harlequins players don't like the thing.

1-2: Irrelevant to me. Not a fan of Autarchs anyway, wouldn't mind if they disappeared.

3: Not even sure why the Warlock Conclave exists - it's complete garbage and is useless. Get rid of it, or change it wholesale.

4: I'm okay with 5-man Guardian squads, not okay with a support weapon for every five models though. Too strong, easily abused.

5: Storm Guardians are...pointless at the moment. Again, need some sort of re-write. Should go back to one type of Guardian squad, ignoring the stupid split into "Storm" Guardians etc.

6: Yes, Guardians should absolutely be WS/BS 4+, and a point or two cheaper. I vehemently dislike the increase despite it being a general benefit to running Guardians. Also, swap Ulthwe's Craftworld trait to be 'Black Guardians' again, giving them 3+ Guardians --- making them more likely to field them than other Craftworlds.

7: I don't care about max'ed squads of Dire Avengers. Don't think it would hurt much. Though it would increase your Asurmen invuln-bomb to 60 figures which is probably too much.

8: I'm fine with the Warp Spider packs...but fix their guns. Hot garbage. Should go back to being flamer-style template weapons instead of whatever nonsense they are now. They're literally spitting a cloud of wires...

9: Falcon should be reduced in cost, or the Pulse Laser needs a slight bump for free - also make it so that only combat tanks of the Eldar can purchase the upgrades. Make Wave Serpents unable to take upgrade items. This would help even out things a good bit.

10: Get rid of Alaitoc's -1 to hit nonsense (and all armies/chapters/legions with it). It is a gak rule.

11: Nah...confusing and occasionally way too strong.

12: Perhaps?

13: The last thing you need is Eldar getting exemptions from current rules, it'll only anger the masses. I do agree that some of the retro-rules changes will eliminate/exclude some items/stratagems/tactics.

1-2: Autarchs should be able to take any Aspect Warrior's wargear options (but not Exarch-only options). Minor exception of things like Crimson Hunter, outside a very specific entry. Very much agree.
3. Warlock Conclaves need to go down in ppm, or the rules need to change substantially. The rules make the conclave much worse than individual models. Agree.
4. Agree with 5-mans. Not sure the weapon saturation you're suggesting isn't too good, though. Although Storm Guardians turning into a specialist squad - 2x Fusion or Flamer, or other specialist kit would be a very cool and interesting option.
5. Storm Guardians might have a niche as a specialist squad. A pair of Fusion Guns in a 5-man squad aren't great (see: Tac Marines), but at the right price point wouldn't be terrible. I'd much rather see each Guardian pick pistol/ccw or catapault, and each squad can either get Specials or Weapon Platform(s), but not both.
6. Yes, Guardians always should be WS/BS4+. Although a 'Black Guardian' (unit, stratagem, or even trait) for WS/BS3+ would be cool too. Guardians should be militia. They man the heavy weapons platforms. They bring the special tools and weapons to bear. Their gun is a sidearm, not an infantry weapon.
7. Aspect Warriors in 20-man size? Not totally against DAs being able to, but not a big fan of this. You're still giving up way too much by going with non-5mans.
8. Now that Spiders are "bad" (they're OK imo), perhaps now's a great time too actually fix them. They really should Fly.
9. I'd prefer to see Star Engines give deepstrike, but with the stratagem, not going to happen. I'd love it if Falcons got the DT treatment. But the truth is that the Serpent is a little *too* good, not that the Falcon is bad. Just a little too good, though.
10. First, 6s should aways hit. Not just for Orks. Second, I'd like to see a toning down of all the -1-to-hit traits.
11. Too wonky, and much more swingy than it seems. More fluffy to be sure. Uthwe's trait is better for Wraith hosts than Black Guardian Warhosts. Biel-Tan's trait is better for Black Guardian Warhosts than Swordwind. Iyanden's trait can do half decent things for Black Guardian Warhosts, but is otherwise vastly outperformed by Uthwe's. Only Saim-Hann's is fitting.
12. If it's Saim-Hann's, it should be grav: grav bikes and grav tanks. Not so much Wraithlords. But it strikes me as utterly redicolous that some random tractor armored up with sheets of metal rivetted on haphazardly and some guns ducttaped to it are less affected by moving half speed than CWE vehicles. WTF is a Falcon Cloudhunter so terrible at firing on the move? Firing on the move is what CWE should do *well*.
13. Would be cool, but not while others' don't get similar.

14. So I'm adding one: Exarchs cost <Aspect>+10 pts. Because, currently, they're just a free upgrade atop the PPM of the unit. Not as noticeable in Dark Reaper squads where you usually notice the difference because he pays for a fancier weapon. Much more noticeable when DAs are worth 11-12ppm as is, but for every 5DAs, one gets 2W and a 4++. I'd love to also give them +1 WS/BS, but I'm going too far. Wishlisting, CWE beatsticks should be Exarchs, not Autarchs. But that's not how 40k works.

Honestly think Warlocks need a complete revamp.
Instead of having separate Warlock, Conclave and Spiritseer datasheets, there needs to be a single datasheet as follows:

Conclave 1-10 Warlocks. All Characters that are separate units, but get deployed at the same time (like Carnifex and Leman Russ units)
1 Warlock can "upgraded" to Spiritseer with all that comes with.

Then you add some rule that gives Warlocks a bonus for being near other Warlocks, like re-roll 1 dice or +1 to cast if 3 or more Warlocks are within 3" of each other.
The specifics of the rule matter less than the rule encouraging multiple Warlocks form the same unit hanging out together.
But the point is to keep them all characters to merit their points cost. Only 1 warlock cost is needed at that point, preferably the current Conclave cost.

You combine then Warlock Skyrunner and Conclave Skyrunner datasheets in the same manner.

-

That would be extremely hampered now by the rule of three - so separate datasheets is much more preferable. Warlocks became complete gak when they moved to 10 points less than a model which has double their stats/abilities/usefulness (i.e. Spiritseer).

I'm still angry (yep...still) that Eldar psykers became garbage after 2nd edition. I don't mean from a casting perspective (though Warlocks became gak) - I mean from a stats perspective. Being reduced to gakky statlines with minor buffing powers is such a blow to the fluff and the way they used to operate.

Doom is still good, and the Warlock powers are mostly a lot more impactful in 8th. But yeah, the pointing between SpiritSeers, Warlocks, and Conclaves is bad. And the non-Doom Fate powers are meh.

 Elbows wrote:
That would be extremely hampered now by the rule of three - so separate datasheets is much more preferable. Warlocks became complete gak when they moved to 10 points less than a model which has double their stats/abilities/usefulness (i.e. Spiritseer).

How does the rule of 3 have any affect on my suggestion?
You actually get MORE individual Warlocks (up to 30 separate models) with my suggestion and the same total number of Spiritseers (3)
I find it hard to believe anyone is taking 3x 10 man Conclaves AND 3 Character Warlocks in the same list right now.

But I do agree that whatever changes, Warlocks need to be cheaper. If Spiritseers are 65ppm (which I think is fair), Warlocks should be no more than 35ppm and Conclave units need to die outright. Without Character protection, they are worthless, or at least a big enough target to the opponent to make them priority.

I only through in the Spiritseer as it is so similar to Warlocks, but the main revamp I'd like to see is a single datasheet for Warlocks (well, and another for the Skyrunners) in which you buy 1-10 Character Warlocks that deploy as separate units but get some minor bonus for being close to each other, but is not required.

-

Bharring wrote:

4. Agree with 5-mans. Not sure the weapon saturation you're suggesting isn't too good, though. Although Storm Guardians turning into a specialist squad - 2x Fusion or Flamer, or other specialist kit would be a very cool and interesting option.

Maybe I'm wrong about the numbers, but my thinking was that an infantry squad with 8 normal guys and a heavy weapon team is something like 40 points plus the cost of the weapon while a defender squad with 5 normal guys would be 45 (if we don't reduce their cost) plus the cost of the weapon/platform. So youd end up with similar heavy weapon firepower for a similar cost but in very different squads. If we lower the BS/WS of guardians to 4+, we could probably get away with lowering their cost to 7 or 8 per model, but they'd still be accomplishing the goal of being the cheap option used to fill out batallions at their current price with the option to become slightly pricier than other troops if they took a weapon platform.

Or am I missing something? Giving them similar heavy dakka to an infantry squad is probably reasonable, right?

5. Storm Guardians might have a niche as a specialist squad. A pair of Fusion Guns in a 5-man squad aren't great (see: Tac Marines), but at the right price point wouldn't be terrible. I'd much rather see each Guardian pick pistol/ccw or catapault, and each squad can either get Specials or Weapon Platform(s), but not both.

I am on board with this idea. Melee loadout guardians would probably make more sense for the guys that are going to be catching deepstriker charges, but the shurikens cataputls are still better if you want to put them in a transport or deepstrike them.

7. Aspect Warriors in 20-man size? Not totally against DAs being able to, but not a big fan of this. You're still giving up way too much by going with non-5mans.

I was mostly thinking about buffs here. Avengers are decent but unimpressive as they are now. If I could take a squad of 20, however, warlock buffs are suddenly really solid (though not game-breaking) on them, and a guided squad of 20 coming in from the webway would, combined with my other proposed changes, be a more lethal but more costly alternative to the guardian webway bomb. I like the idea of building an army around a 20 strong squad of Protected avengers. I definitely wouldn't allow other aspects to take larger squads though. Avengers, to my mind, get a pass for being the most common of the aspect shrines/being troops.

9. I'd prefer to see Star Engines give deepstrike, but with the stratagem, not going to happen. I'd love it if Falcons got the DT treatment. But the truth is that the Serpent is a little *too* good, not that the Falcon is bad. Just a little too good, though.

THere's some truth to that. The serpent could take some mild nerfing and still be a good option. However, the falcon mostly suffers from being redundant with the wave serpent. They're both pretty durable transports with some okay firepower. The serpent currently does durability, transportation, and dakka better than the falcon (well, maybe not the last one, but it's close!). If you nerfed the serpent so that it was basically interchangeable with the falcon, you'd still have too much overlap between the two. So the serpent being better is only part of the problem. The other part is that the falcon has no niche. I feel like free deepstriking would be one way to give the falcon more of a role.

12. If it's Saim-Hann's, it should be grav: grav bikes and grav tanks. Not so much Wraithlords. But it strikes me as utterly redicolous that some random tractor armored up with sheets of metal rivetted on haphazardly and some guns ducttaped to it are less affected by moving half speed than CWE vehicles. WTF is a Falcon Cloudhunter so terrible at firing on the move? Firing on the move is what CWE should do *well*.

Benefitting things like warwalkers and wraith lords is less of a "Saim-Hann" thing and more of a general eldar thing. Because the craftworld traits reflect their respective world's fluff so poorly, as you pointed out, I'm tempted to view the traits less as a craftworld-specific thing and more as a broad trait for a specific eldar force. A toolbox for whatever eldar army you might be fielding. So Iybraesil might appreciate the "Saim-Hann" charge rerolls and the ability to field wraith lords or war walkers that are mobile enough to kite daemons while they explore crone worlds. But I see you rpoint.

13. Would be cool, but not while others' don't get similar.

Fair. But currently, the webway gate is probably outperformed by drop pods of all things. Being forced to take as many shots as your opponent wants to send your way for one or two turns and then losing units because of it is just... not workable. It really feels like the gate was designed with first turn reserves in mind, and it was a pretty questionable investment even under those circumstances. So it needs... something.

14. So I'm adding one: Exarchs cost <Aspect>+10 pts. Because, currently, they're just a free upgrade atop the PPM of the unit. Not as noticeable in Dark Reaper squads where you usually notice the difference because he pays for a fancier weapon. Much more noticeable when DAs are worth 11-12ppm as is, but for every 5DAs, one gets 2W and a 4++. I'd love to also give them +1 WS/BS, but I'm going too far. Wishlisting, CWE beatsticks should be Exarchs, not Autarchs. But that's not how 40k works.

Completely agree with all of this. Exarchs absolutely warrant a price boost. The only counterpoint I could see to that is that many units simply never took an exarch in previous editions because a killy exarch that cost X points might simply be less useful than X points of additional non-exarchs. Which is a solveable problem. The improved statline and special rules and unlocked weapons probably warrant an investment in an exarch on all(?) aspect warriors this edition. Autarchs really shouldn't be better at stabbing things than exarchs, but I understand GW's inclination to streamline dice rolling by keeping the WS/BS the same throughout a squad. I wouldn't be opposed to lowering the WS/BS and maybe even Attacks for an autarch in exchange for a price drop. "Hero" autarchs are cool, but fielding cheaper HQs to unlock CP more cheaply feels kind of appropriate for an autarch.

Thoughts on changing Path of Command to a simple, "Start the game with d3 additional CP?"




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
That would be extremely hampered now by the rule of three - so separate datasheets is much more preferable. Warlocks became complete gak when they moved to 10 points less than a model which has double their stats/abilities/usefulness (i.e. Spiritseer).

How does the rule of 3 have any affect on my suggestion?
You actually get MORE individual Warlocks (up to 30 separate models) with my suggestion and the same total number of Spiritseers (3)
I find it hard to believe anyone is taking 3x 10 man Conclaves AND 3 Character Warlocks in the same list right now.

But I do agree that whatever changes, Warlocks need to be cheaper. If Spiritseers are 65ppm (which I think is fair), Warlocks should be no more than 35ppm and Conclave units need to die outright. Without Character protection, they are worthless, or at least a big enough target to the opponent to make them priority.

I only through in the Spiritseer as it is so similar to Warlocks, but the main revamp I'd like to see is a single datasheet for Warlocks (well, and another for the Skyrunners) in which you buy 1-10 Character Warlocks that deploy as separate units but get some minor bonus for being close to each other, but is not required.

-

Your suggestion makes a lot of sense, but I do feel there's a place for a warlock squad. Being able to throw three Runes of Battle buffs around and put some of them on a unit of rune armored jedi is pretty awesome. Thematically, I actually love the idea of warlocks rushing with psychic powers and witch blades at the ready, buffing up the warlocks that they've entered into a "choir" with before the battle. The only real problem with them, to my mind, is the price tag. If they were, say, 25 points apiece, a foot council could actually put out a pretty solid amount of offense, and it would be easy to buff to respectable levels of defense. A 3+ invul and 5+ FNP isn't too shabby (although obviously that would require a farseer to be thrown into the mix.)

Thematically, Warlock Conclaves have a place for being the deathstar unit you buff to hell and then it does it's thing. But:
1. Shining Spears do it so much better
2. Conclaves pay to much PPM, especially compared to solo Warlocks

Fix those two things (and both should be fixed), and things will get better.

I honestly only have two ideas for Avengers besides a point cut.
1. Let them fire their Shuriken Pistols in addition to their Catapult.
2. Give them an equivalent of the True Grit Stratagem.