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Hi all,

I'm just starting up a Dark Elf army to play 8th edition with my housemates and I'd like some feedback. I played VC around the End Times so I have had a decent grasp on the game, but not this army, so any help would be appreciated.

My principal opponents will be ogres and dwarfs.

This is just a list for fun among my friends, nothing competitive but I'd like to know how seriously I'd get beat if I tried this.

Lords:
Dreadlord
Cold One
Sea Dragon Cloak
Shield
Armour of Destiny
Chillblade

Supreme Sorceress
Level 4
Tome of Furion

Heroes

Master
BSB, Rampager's Standard
Cold one
Heavy Armour
Lance
Sea Dragon Cloak

Core

2x 20 Darkshards
Shields
Full Command

2x 20 Witch Elves
Full Command

Special
8x Cold One Knights
Full Command

20x Executioners
Full Command

War Hydra
Spit fire

The plan is for the Witch Elves and the Executioners to hold the centre, supported by the Darkshards and the Supreme Sorceress, who I'll probably run with the Lore of Life, or perhaps Dark.

The knights with the Dreadlord and the Master will take a flank while the hydra takes the other, looking for opportunities at flank charges.

I'm unsure about the Master, the standard could be used to hold the centre but I'm not too sure and I'm not too familiar with Delves.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Not a lot for 2500pts, you have a lot of bloat in this list.

Dreadlord - You reach 2+ with the cold one, and 3+ with the cloak alone, you can save points here. A 4++ and Chillblade is nasty but not as powerful as it looks. It autowounds but does nohing against armour, your nasty sword has the -1 save fpor S4 only. This character costs 276pts will be good against ogres but will struggle against dwarfs. you can do so much more for the points.
A dreadlord is for Ld10, you have nasty monsters to lay on the hurt.

Supreme Sorceress - Tome of Frion is for a level 1 or 2 sorceress. At level 4 you have to be really unlucky not to naturally generate one spell you want. Dark magic has a lot of samey spells, if you have a level 4 blaster sorceress you will be able to do what you want. Sacrificial dagger is the usual choice.

BSB - Unless you really need that banner use a BSB's magic allowance on protection. He is there for the reroll.

Darkshards - No problems, but don't overestimate them as they are. 40 S3 shots is overkill for chaff clearance, but not enough to stop combat blocks. Give Darkshards shields, this makes them Bleakswords with a 4+/6++ and repeater crossbows which is not bad as basic infantry. Consider deploying them in four ranks for static combat resolution halving the ifrepower but offering a nasty anti chaff unit that also holds as a line unit with a bonus over Bleakswords of getting a 'free' stand and shoot.

Witch Elves - Take one unit of 30 or 40 Witch Elves and the remainder if any in a small flanking unit. here is what I wrote earlier:

EITHER

1. One box of ten, champion and musician, you can go for a standard if you want to. Deploy them as a small flanking unit and inflict a heavy damage spike on an already engaged target. Vulnerable but highly efficient in destroying an engaged enemy via combat resolution overload. Watch out for stubborn units..

OR

2. Three or four boxes of ten, three is enough, with full command with magic standard and the Altar of Khaine and a Hag. Hellebron is an optional extra but don't skimp on any elements. Use as your main combat block deployed in horde formation, use all the extra rules you can get including extra attacks and the ward save. You will likely win, then bathe in blood while drinking your opponents tears. Watch out for bait units for your girl frenzy. Support with magic and missiles.

Cold Ones - Ten cold ones is a problem, they are expensive because you pay for a nasty mount, yet you get no supporting attacks from cold ones, which is where the post charge staying power is.
Have cold one knights in a single rank, you can toughen them by adding a hero, but not the Dreadlord, if any, you need the general in the infantry line.

Executioners - No problem there, 20 is about right. Better than Black Guard, though you can have both.

War Hydra - Cant go wrong there. At 2500pts it would not be unfair to take two.


Missing options.
Both Dark Riders and Doomfire Warlocks are very effective, the latter being one of the most broken units in the game. I only assembled mine as Dark Riders because they look good and are a milder flavoured cheese.
Bolt Throwers are almost always a solid option.
Cold One chariots have T5 and are one of the better chariots. Though they lack the high strength of other heavy chariots they dont cost as much as most other heavy chariots, with exception of boar chariots. Choose targets well, choose to fight opponents that will not like being chewed on by two raptors and have a problem with T5. The combination of high attack volume, modest strength but high resilience make them good bully units for messing up light troops and can grind away after the charge.

General Principles
Dark elves win battles by winning combats. This might sound like a redundant comment but consider basic inftry armies like Empire. Their units lose combats but stay due to the general and BSB and help from a warpriest or spell, they hold due to steadfast and keep grinding away until the battle is won elsewhere. Chaos wins by decapitating the opponent in challenges and annihilating select opponents in a drawn out battle. Wood elves deny combat until they have won elsewhere.
Dark Elves are a high damage outpt army. Most units set upon the opposition with either solid high strength attacks or a very number of low strength attacks that get through on volume. They also get to reroll a lot due to Murderous Prowess and Hatred, What they cant do is fight in attrition combat. Dark elves use ASF to great effect, more so even than High Elves. Dark Elves cause damage spikes, however with the way rules are written if the enemy unit is big enough it will get to swing, and most Dark Elves are not well protected. This makes the army difficult to play, you need to combine multiple high damage causing units, chariots and hydras are key here, backing up combat blocks that can also deal out a lot of pain, such as Witch Elves and Executioners. The idea is to cause such a damage spike as to remove steadfast in a single round of combat. If you cant do that fight elsewhere if you can, as Dark Elves can also apply damage at range and are fast enough for a denial game.
Now here are your problems, Dwarfs are a problem match up. There is no point when you can say you have enough overkill to charge into a dwarf battleline, they tie with Nurgle daemons as thetop defensive army in the game.
Thankfully high mobility means that you can work other solutions that the standard Druchii overkill rush cannot manage, not as well as a true denial army like Wood Elves, but when facing dwarfs, or Nurgle, the difference in speed between the different types of elves are irrelevant.
I wont lie to you, Dwarfs are tough opponents, you will need a cerebral gameplay style patience and care to set up your attacks to make them as once sided as you need them to be to get away with having T3 and light armour, or bikinis, as your main defence on a low model count army.

Ogres are tough too, bit its mostly a style of toughness, as armies go Ogres are by no means one of the particularly resilient ones. they have multiple wounds and reasonable toughness, but they lack saves and you can concentrate a lot of power against a relative handful of ogres. You can use overkill strategies against them, but cant stop them from holding just long enough to force a bill in dead elves. By picking fights carefully you should be able to stay ahead on attrition. Watch out for gnoblar scrappers, they can get in the way of your pre charge maneuvers and are disproportionately effective against you. Use Darkshards on them

 Orlanth wrote:
Not a lot for 2500pts, you have a lot of bloat in this list.

Dreadlord - You reach 2+ with the cold one, and 3+ with the cloak alone, you can save points here. A 4++ and Chillblade is nasty but not as powerful as it looks. It autowounds but does nohing against armour, your nasty sword has the -1 save fpor S4 only. This character costs 276pts will be good against ogres but will struggle against dwarfs. you can do so much more for the points.
A dreadlord is for Ld10, you have nasty monsters to lay on the hurt.

Supreme Sorceress - Tome of Frion is for a level 1 or 2 sorceress. At level 4 you have to be really unlucky not to naturally generate one spell you want. Dark magic has a lot of samey spells, if you have a level 4 blaster sorceress you will be able to do what you want. Sacrificial dagger is the usual choice.

BSB - Unless you really need that banner use a BSB's magic allowance on protection. He is there for the reroll.

Darkshards - No problems, but don't overestimate them as they are. 40 S3 shots is overkill for chaff clearance, but not enough to stop combat blocks. Give Darkshards shields, this makes them Bleakswords with a 4+/6++ and repeater crossbows which is not bad as basic infantry. Consider deploying them in four ranks for static combat resolution halving the ifrepower but offering a nasty anti chaff unit that also holds as a line unit with a bonus over Bleakswords of getting a 'free' stand and shoot.

Witch Elves - Take one unit of 30 or 40 Witch Elves and the remainder if any in a small flanking unit. here is what I wrote earlier:

EITHER

1. One box of ten, champion and musician, you can go for a standard if you want to. Deploy them as a small flanking unit and inflict a heavy damage spike on an already engaged target. Vulnerable but highly efficient in destroying an engaged enemy via combat resolution overload. Watch out for stubborn units..

OR

2. Three or four boxes of ten, three is enough, with full command with magic standard and the Altar of Khaine and a Hag. Hellebron is an optional extra but don't skimp on any elements. Use as your main combat block deployed in horde formation, use all the extra rules you can get including extra attacks and the ward save. You will likely win, then bathe in blood while drinking your opponents tears. Watch out for bait units for your girl frenzy. Support with magic and missiles.

Cold Ones - Ten cold ones is a problem, they are expensive because you pay for a nasty mount, yet you get no supporting attacks from cold ones, which is where the post charge staying power is.
Have cold one knights in a single rank, you can toughen them by adding a hero, but not the Dreadlord, if any, you need the general in the infantry line.

Executioners - No problem there, 20 is about right. Better than Black Guard, though you can have both.

War Hydra - Cant go wrong there. At 2500pts it would not be unfair to take two.


Missing options.
Both Dark Riders and Doomfire Warlocks are very effective, the latter being one of the most broken units in the game. I only assembled mine as Dark Riders because they look good and are a milder flavoured cheese.
Bolt Throwers are almost always a solid option.
Cold One chariots have T5 and are one of the better chariots. Though they lack the high strength of other heavy chariots they dont cost as much as most other heavy chariots, with exception of boar chariots. Choose targets well, choose to fight opponents that will not like being chewed on by two raptors and have a problem with T5. The combination of high attack volume, modest strength but high resilience make them good bully units for messing up light troops and can grind away after the charge.

General Principles
Dark elves win battles by winning combats. This might sound like a redundant comment but consider basic inftry armies like Empire. Their units lose combats but stay due to the general and BSB and help from a warpriest or spell, they hold due to steadfast and keep grinding away until the battle is won elsewhere. Chaos wins by decapitating the opponent in challenges and annihilating select opponents in a drawn out battle. Wood elves deny combat until they have won elsewhere.
Dark Elves are a high damage outpt army. Most units set upon the opposition with either solid high strength attacks or a very number of low strength attacks that get through on volume. They also get to reroll a lot due to Murderous Prowess and Hatred, What they cant do is fight in attrition combat. Dark elves use ASF to great effect, more so even than High Elves. Dark Elves cause damage spikes, however with the way rules are written if the enemy unit is big enough it will get to swing, and most Dark Elves are not well protected. This makes the army difficult to play, you need to combine multiple high damage causing units, chariots and hydras are key here, backing up combat blocks that can also deal out a lot of pain, such as Witch Elves and Executioners. The idea is to cause such a damage spike as to remove steadfast in a single round of combat. If you cant do that fight elsewhere if you can, as Dark Elves can also apply damage at range and are fast enough for a denial game.
Now here are your problems, Dwarfs are a problem match up. There is no point when you can say you have enough overkill to charge into a dwarf battleline, they tie with Nurgle daemons as thetop defensive army in the game.
Thankfully high mobility means that you can work other solutions that the standard Druchii overkill rush cannot manage, not as well as a true denial army like Wood Elves, but when facing dwarfs, or Nurgle, the difference in speed between the different types of elves are irrelevant.
I wont lie to you, Dwarfs are tough opponents, you will need a cerebral gameplay style patience and care to set up your attacks to make them as once sided as you need them to be to get away with having T3 and light armour, or bikinis, as your main defence on a low model count army.

Ogres are tough too, bit its mostly a style of toughness, as armies go Ogres are by no means one of the particularly resilient ones. they have multiple wounds and reasonable toughness, but they lack saves and you can concentrate a lot of power against a relative handful of ogres. You can use overkill strategies against them, but cant stop them from holding just long enough to force a bill in dead elves. By picking fights carefully you should be able to stay ahead on attrition. Watch out for gnoblar scrappers, they can get in the way of your pre charge maneuvers and are disproportionately effective against you. Use Darkshards on them

Thank you for your detailed reply, I really appreciate the time you took to write it, I have a few followup questions that I hope you can help me with.

1. The Dreadlord,
You make a good case for this and his position in the army doesn't appear to be as deadly as I had hoped. In the line, perhaps among the executioners seems like a better option. But how should I equip him? Drop the chillblade for an ogre blade, perhaps? That higher S may help a little more when dealing with the armour.. Should I consider dropping him for Hellebron on a Cauldron?

2. The Master
With a smaller unit of Cold One Knights he seems redundant there. I could move him in to the line too, but I feel like a Death Hag is probably a better choice than a master BSB with the dreadlord back in the line, especially if I can fit in a Cauldron.

3. The Sorceress
Point taken on the tome, I'll swap it for the dagger. But how do you feel about the Lores? I'm torn between blasting the hell out of the enemy with Dark, or healing with Life. Metal could be a good shout since Dwarfs and Ironguts will be common. I know I could ruin both armies by going Death and rolling Purple Sun, but that may be a bit much.

4. Witch Elves
I take your point, they're me favourite unit in the army book so a giant blob of them sounds great, probably with the Razor Standard. Do you think that banner would be worth the investment? I think for so few points it might help the Witch Elves dice up the dwarfs, I'd hate for them to hit the line of Ironbreakers, stop and be ground down.

5. Darkshards
Do you think the two squads of 20 are sufficient, or an over-investment? I plan on having the Sorceress sit with them to hang back, S3 doesn't seem great but volume of fire and armour piercing may be able to chip away at my foes. With the Sorceress sacrificing them for magic dice I worry I'll probably end up gutting her bunker and hurting effectiveness.

6. Executioners
How should I deploy them? I was thinking two ranks of 10 but I fear static combat resolution might hurt.

7. Hydra
How important are the upgrades? I chose Spit Fire but I can see why the breath weapon would be handy. Not sure about a second, I'm not too in to the model but I can see why they're excellent, a load of higher strength attacks and regen is nasty in a flank.

As for the missed options you mentioned,

I left Dark Riders and Doomfire Warlocks out mainly because I really, really hate the models, although I can see the appeal of flanking your opponent and hammering them with Doombolts.

As for the chariot, one or two could fit, i just loathe chariots for some reason, but I can get over it if it makes an effective unit. I'll have to make a sacrifice to fit at least one of these things in, probably Doomfire Warlocks sine I play DoK in Sigmar.

Any additional feedback you have would be appreciated.

The first thing I noticed about this army is that you have no Chaff. You will lose almost every game played if you don't know how to control the board.

You need minimum 2 units of Dark Riders, Harpies or Shades.

You will probably need more to bait/flee/countercharge/re-direct tactics. You can't just slam into an enemies front line and expect to win with Dark Elves, you have to hit them where they're most vulnerable and re-direct their most dangerous threats away from you.

Never take fancy magic weapons that do unnecessary things. All you need is strength. It allows you to wound better and pierces armour. Because it does both of those things, it's really the only stat you should be looking for in a weapon. It's there to kill models, no wound them, not make them stupid. Just kill. Ogre blade or go home.

That being said, you should probably drop the Dread Lord, he's a lot of points and isn't contributing much to your army. You could buy another unit for him.

As Orlanth pointed out, Tomb of Furion is for low level casters. You'd be better off with a dispel scroll and a ward save.

Drop the Rampager Standard on the BSB. Give them protection and a decent weapon. You don't really need the standard.

Executioners could be bigger. 30 is what I usually run, otherwise you're sort of waisting their potential when you put them in horde formation. They aren't benefiting from that extra rank of attacks, but you are making them wide enough to be unwieldy and prone to being charged. If you only want to take 20, but the BSB in there and run them 3 ranks of 7.

Spit Fire is absolute trash on the Hydra. It's maximum 5 shots, at BS 4 with the multishot rule at only 8" range. Statistically thats 1.65 hits per shooting phase which is terrible, coupled with the fact that it can't shoot in combat like you can with fiery breath, and you want the hydra in combat. Also, if you are in range with the spit fire shot you should be charging, not standing there shooting. Always take Fiery Breath.

You should take monsters in sets of 2. One will be shot down easily enough. You need redundancy and target saturation.

I'll reiterate my first point. You need chaff. A good general will dance circles around your army because you can't control the board, coupled with the fact that 2 of your units have stupidity and frenzy, both of which can seriously mess with your plans. You need units to support them and protect them if they decide not to function the way you want.

Brutus Apex is correct with his advice, with some caveat.

However before I will add to that I must ask what models you have. Its all very well to suggest a unit of thirty Executioners but the models are expensive and not easily available.

I think we should start by obtaining a list of what models you have and what models you like and move on from there.
At that point we can help with list building and sourcing suitable models.

At this point it will help to know what you want. WHFB a static system now, I refuse to use the word dead, so you can plan long term for your collections.
lets begin with the units you like the look an theme of, and those you dislike. This is important as you will want an army that fits you. For example I strongly dislike Doomfire Warlocks, and think they are an add on to make more use of the Dark Rider kit to which GW did what they liked to do at the time, make the brand new unit overpowered. Doomfire Warlocks are a staple of the meta -that-was and are popular in listmaking, I strongly recommend them, I equally strongly refuse to have any in my army, because I think they are undercosted, overpowered, grossly unfair and fugly. the bypass to their 4++ means select opponents,notably from an army that doesnt need another buff completely bypass it. They are as resilient as Phoenix Guard or as vulnerable as wolf riders dependant solely on what faction is attacking them.
You might dislike some models, and love others. If you really do like to have a specific we can think of list options to include it and those without.

That being done we can help you shortlist what you want to add to your collection if anything.

We can also give you a quick list based on what you have got, whatever that is, that you can draw up here and now to play with.
King Malekith likes to know what makes a dwarf weep and an ogre scream, it might not be wise for us to keep him waiting.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
The first thing I noticed about this army is that you have no Chaff. You will lose almost every game played if you don't know how to control the board.

You need minimum 2 units of Dark Riders, Harpies or Shades.

Very true, I should have thought to add that. Chaff is always important, but critical for those that must use carefulconcentration of force.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You will probably need more to bait/flee/countercharge/re-direct tactics. You can't just slam into an enemies front line and expect to win with Dark Elves, you have to hit them where they're most vulnerable and re-direct their most dangerous threats away from you.

You can work without chaff against some armies. Dwarfs have very little chaff themselves. Ogres have plenty though, both can be dealt with via shooting or MSU clean up units.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Never take fancy magic weapons that do unnecessary things. All you need is strength. It allows you to wound better and pierces armour. Because it does both of those things, it's really the only stat you should be looking for in a weapon. It's there to kill models, no wound them, not make them stupid. Just kill. Ogre blade or go home.

As a general rule this is correct though depending on who the wielder is adding attacks is also good, in some cases statistically better. However a great weapon is as good as an Ogre Blade and costs a lot less.
At the risk of muddying good advice one should take at least one mobile magic weapon in any army, in case you face ethereal opponents (this assumes you are not list tailoring, ethereal dwarfs are rare).

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

That being said, you should probably drop the Dread Lord, he's a lot of points and isn't contributing much to your army. You could buy another unit for him.

The Dreadlord costs as much as two Masters. How much do you need Ld10?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

As Orlanth pointed out, Tomb of Furion is for low level casters. You'd be better off with a dispel scroll and a ward save.

And then get the low level caster for backup, she can have the Tome if you like.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Drop the Rampager Standard on the BSB. Give them protection and a decent weapon. You don't really need the standard.

Handled well Dark elves can do without the BSB, but in 2500pts I would autoinclude. The BSB's magic item allowance is for a ward save.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Executioners could be bigger. 30 is what I usually run, otherwise you're sort of waisting their potential when you put them in horde formation. They aren't benefiting from that extra rank of attacks, but you are making them wide enough to be unwieldy and prone to being charged. If you only want to take 20, but the BSB in there and run them 3 ranks of 7.

Getting more executioners is expensive I think 20 is enough anyway. Were to buy more I would consider making a unit of Black Guard instead, bit of variety. I would run the in four ranks, standard block, for reasons I will explain below.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Spit Fire is absolute trash on the Hydra. It's maximum 5 shots, at BS 4 with the multishot rule at only 8" range. Statistically thats 1.65 hits per shooting phase which is terrible, coupled with the fact that it can't shoot in combat like you can with fiery breath, and you want the hydra in combat. Also, if you are in range with the spit fire shot you should be charging, not standing there shooting. Always take Fiery Breath.

You should take monsters in sets of 2. One will be shot down easily enough. You need redundancy and target saturation.

While true I think hydras shine alone (still take two anyway), use them to support infantry blocks. Dark elves are all about concentration of force, this means basing is important. Chariots and some monsters, hydras being a very good example, are there to inflict a lot of potential damage on a narrow frontage. Got a block of 20 Executioners and you have some nasty attacks, add a monster or chariot, even if the model only just manages to get base contact, and you get the full power of the monster on the enemy unit. Don't make your units so wide that they cannot get the support in.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

I'll reiterate my first point. You need chaff. A good general will dance circles around your army because you can't control the board, coupled with the fact that 2 of your units have stupidity and frenzy, both of which can seriously mess with your plans. You need units to support them and protect them if they decide not to function the way you want.

True.However chaff indicates expendability. Dark elves don't have many expendable skirmishers, they have elite fighting skirmishers that murder the opponents chaff, similar but different.
The cheapest chaffiest unit you can field is 75pts for five harpies, which is quite a lot for chaff. You have no equivalent to eagles, sabrecats or goblin wolf rider bosses. Note that harpies cause panic now.
Five Shades cost 90pts, including musician, which again is a lot. You might need them.

However an alternate to chaff is to 'MSU' take a portion of your fighting blocks in small units. Dark elves are good for this; Witch Elves, Cold One Knights, Darkshards and Dark Riders all work well in small units: 10-14 for infantry, 5-6 for cavalry. Though each for different reasons. Properly equipped I would hesitate to call them chaff, and they perform a damage dealing rather than a distraction role. Though getting eaten alive by a raptor or flank charged by Witch Elves is pretty distracting methinks. The above units also synergise with chariots and monsters as regular block infantry dos.

 Orlanth wrote:
Brutus Apex is correct with his advice, with some caveat.

However before I will add to that I must ask what models you have. Its all very well to suggest a unit of thirty Executioners but the models are expensive and not easily available.

I think we should start by obtaining a list of what models you have and what models you like and move on from there.
At that point we can help with list building and sourcing suitable models.

At this point it will help to know what you want. WHFB a static system now, I refuse to use the word dead, so you can plan long term for your collections.
lets begin with the units you like the look an theme of, and those you dislike. This is important as you will want an army that fits you. For example I strongly dislike Doomfire Warlocks, and think they are an add on to make more use of the Dark Rider kit to which GW did what they liked to do at the time, make the brand new unit overpowered. Doomfire Warlocks are a staple of the meta -that-was and are popular in listmaking, I strongly recommend them, I equally strongly refuse to have any in my army, because I think they are undercosted, overpowered, grossly unfair and fugly. the bypass to their 4++ means select opponents,notably from an army that doesnt need another buff completely bypass it. They are as resilient as Phoenix Guard or as vulnerable as wolf riders dependant solely on what faction is attacking them.
You might dislike some models, and love others. If you really do like to have a specific we can think of list options to include it and those without.

That being done we can help you shortlist what you want to add to your collection if anything.

We can also give you a quick list based on what you have got, whatever that is, that you can draw up here and now to play with.
King Malekith likes to know what makes a dwarf weep and an ogre scream, it might not be wise for us to keep him waiting.

Thanks again for your replies, I'm taking it all in board for consideration.

As far as what I have so far,

Morathi
Hellebron
40 Witch Elves
Death Hag
5 Cold One Knights
1 Sorceress
1 Cauldron of Blood

I have Khinerai from AoS which could be used as Harpies, but I've not heard good things about harpies.

I planned on buying plenty of Executioners regardless, the models are simply incredible so I can't not. I like Black Guard almost just as much. I really love Cold Ones too, Elves riding dinosaurs is great to see.

Darkshards are fun but I'm worried I went overboard with the amount in the list.

The only things in the book I'm really put off by are Dark Riders, Doomfire Warlocks , Corsairs, Shades and the Scourgerunner, though I suspect I'll have to compromise on one of these for the sake of chaff.

Thanks again for your replies, they're greatly appreciated. It's getting increasingly harder to to find good advice for WHFB, a game I love and can't wait to get back in to.

 Sheokronath wrote:

Thanks again for your replies, I'm taking it all in board for consideration.

You are welcome, and you appreciate the effort so that makes the effort doubly worthwhile.

 Sheokronath wrote:

As far as what I have so far,

Morathi
Hellebron
40 Witch Elves
Death Hag
5 Cold One Knights
1 Sorceress
1 Cauldron of Blood

Ahh so your army is not based on models owned. At this juncture I would stop list making and go collection making instead. We can work on lists afterwards.

 Sheokronath wrote:

I have Khinerai from AoS which could be used as Harpies, but I've not heard good things about harpies.

I live those models too and the snakewomen from the same faction. Very nice models that I toyed with getting for RPG miniatures, then I decided I could spend those funds better elsewhere.
If you want to use Khinerai as harpies go ahead, but I think they are too elite.

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/abyssal-dwarfs/product/abyssal-dwarf-gargoyles-half-regiment-10.html

Cheapest price at the moment is £15 for ten. You can make two squads out of that. If you like that's your chaff done right there and then.

 Sheokronath wrote:

I planned on buying plenty of Executioners regardless, the models are simply incredible so I can't not. I like Black Guard almost just as much. I really love Cold Ones too, Elves riding dinosaurs is great to see.

Executioners are available from GW or ebay, expect to pay a lot at either site. My advice is to buy warriors at the same time and in the same number, use the bits on the kits to make a unit of Black Guard on the side. two boxes of ten Executioners and two boxes of ten Warriors is enough. You will thank me for it when you get a block of Black Guard to back up your Executioners without having to pay stupid money twice.
At this stage do get Black Guard as they serve as an anvil unit. They might don't be what you want in every game, but they do mix things up for you. Dark Elves don't do resilience well, Black Guard are their exception unit, taking a block of them opens doors for future list building.

 Sheokronath wrote:

Darkshards are fun but I'm worried I went overboard with the amount in the list.

Darkshards are good, especially if you give them shields. For one point more they are as good as core melee troops. Turn this to your advantage.

 Sheokronath wrote:

The only things in the book I'm really put off by are Dark Riders, Doomfire Warlocks , Corsairs, Shades and the Scourgerunner, though I suspect I'll have to compromise on one of these for the sake of chaff.

Each to their own, I like corsairs. You can try to buy older edition models of dark riders, in any case if you like the Mantic harpies you don't need either. You can have cheap harasser and distraction units, and remember small units of Darkshards can also serve the same role.

Other things you should buy to spice up your list:

Cold One chariots. You don't like Scourgerunners, fair enough, but how about the raptor chariots, you gotta like them surely.

Bolt Throwers. Note that if you are not sure about the models check out those of earlier editions, the unti went through several redesigns, I wont call them resculpts because it went far beyond that. You will likely find a bolt thrower for you. mine are the 5th edition ones. With bolt throwers you can take one in a list for a bit of variety, that is ok, but for effectiveness either take three or more or don't bother taking any at all.

Dark Pegasus. Do you know anyone who collects Vampire counts, or AoS Flesheater Courts? Beg some vargheist wings, make sure its a pair that marches and are the right way up. Attach them to a left over dark steed from a cold one chariot, add a knight from a cold one knight set. Voila - Master on Dark Pegasus. Very fast and capable of a decent save. If you want the Cillblade here is somewhere to put it. A Dark Pegasus hero with Chillblade is an excellent monster hunter. Killing monsters is the Chillblade's niche role. Dont fix a loadout for the master though, he can have other weapons for other purposes.

Assassin. You have a dark elf army, so go buy an assassin model.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Dark-Elves-Shadowblade


how can you dont want to own this?

Harpies. As mentioned above, with mentioning twice with the way your list is heading.

Hydra. Buy two, seriously. They are your actual 'line infantry'. Use them as you would a melee line unit, march shoulder to shoulder with your combat blocks and munch the opposition.

 Sheokronath wrote:

Thanks again for your replies, they're greatly appreciated. It's getting increasingly harder to to find good advice for WHFB, a game I love and can't wait to get back in to.

Keep the flame burning.

 Orlanth wrote:

snip

Hi again, first, sorry for the late reply,

As far as the army not being based on models owned, that's true, but I have no problem sourcing the ones I need.

Thank you for the advice regarding the Black Guard, they're great too and I think I'll take your advice and convert a few up. Cold One Chariots are super cool, I'll look in to them too.

As for assassins, what's a good place for them? Hiding in the main line or on the flanks? Is it worth gearing them up?

Is a second Hydra not a bit much? I know saturation is usually the rule of thumb when it comes to monsters in 8th edition, but I've also heard the hydra is an incredibly powerful monster. although I suspect I'll need them to chew up dwarfs.

------------------Edit-------------------

I sat down this evening and drew up a new list, taking on board some feedback from this thread. Let me know what you think.

Hellebron
Cauldron of Blood

Supreme Sorceress
Level 4
Sacrificial dagger

2x 18 Darkshards
Shields
Guardmaster
Standard Bearer

1x 40 Witch Elves
Hag
Standard Bearer
Razor standard

2x 5 Harpies

1x 20 Executioners
Champion
Standard Bearer

2x War Hydra

---------

Then plan is to send the Witch Elves down the centre, flanked by the hydras.

Darkshards will provide cover and clear chaff.

Executioners will take the weaker flank and look for a cheeky flank charge.

How does this list hold up?

Double hydra, executioners and a witch elf cauldronstar is a bit much. If it becomes your go to build your opponent might grow cause to complain.

Any one of the above elements, or even two is acceptable for larger games.

However once you have Black Guard and cold one chariots, you have a significant amount of swap ins to keep your collection both viable and fresh.

At that point adding an assassin two or more bolt throwers and a dark pegasus hero provides more variety.

Through all this I would consider the darkshards and the harpies to be the unreplacebable core of the army and neither are broken enough to be a problem as an autoinclude.

You will be on your way to a very diverse dark elf list, which will be dangerous as your opponent will not easily be able to guess what you will have next.

About your assassin.
First its about owning one, the Shadowblade model (which is what the surviving kit actually was) is too impressive not to add to a collection. I would not use Shadowblade though as it would be too unfair. He is a trump card the opponent cant do anything about that kills his rise character. A regular assassin isn't so overpowered, you can hedge against them with the right equipment.
You do want one assassin in your collection to keep your opponent guessing, sometimes use him sometimes don't, Don't apply a pattern your opponent can detect and don't use the unfair Shadowblade win button.
Loadout is less important than the psychological threat, you should take one poison, don't bother with more than one, but mix that up too between games..

 Orlanth wrote:
Double hydra, executioners and a witch elf cauldronstar is a bit much. If it becomes your go to build your opponent might grow cause to complain.

Any one of the above elements, or even two is acceptable for larger games.

However once you have Black Guard and cold one chariots, you have a significant amount of swap ins to keep your collection both viable and fresh.

At that point adding an assassin two or more bolt throwers and a dark pegasus hero provides more variety.

Through all this I would consider the darkshards and the harpies to be the unreplacebable core of the army and neither are broken enough to be a problem as an autoinclude.

You will be on your way to a very diverse dark elf list, which will be dangerous as your opponent will not easily be able to guess what you will have next.

About your assassin.
First its about owning one, the Shadowblade model (which is what the surviving kit actually was) is too impressive not to add to a collection. I would not use Shadowblade though as it would be too unfair. He is a trump card the opponent cant do anything about that kills his rise character. A regular assassin isn't so overpowered, you can hedge against them with the right equipment.
You do want one assassin in your collection to keep your opponent guessing, sometimes use him sometimes don't, Don't apply a pattern your opponent can detect and don't use the unfair Shadowblade win button.
Loadout is less important than the psychological threat, you should take one poison, don't bother with more than one, but mix that up too between games..

The list should be fine as a base, I may drop a Hydra for a Chariot or something, maybe a Kharybdiss which could be handy on Ogres. Perhaps drop a few Witch Elves for an Assassin.

Thank you for all your help Orlanth, Again, I really appreciate your patience and all the time you've taken to respond to me, it's been a great help. When I'm up and running I'll be sure to let you know how I got on.

 Sheokronath wrote:

The list should be fine as a base, I may drop a Hydra for a Chariot or something, maybe a Kharybdiss which could be handy on Ogres.

When you have a chariot and black Guard you will have lots of swaps. I strongly recommend taking two hydras, sometimes they will be needed. f your opponent makes a cheesy list themselves you can pull the gloves off and deploy the army you listed above.
Hydra is better than Kharybdiss, not only is the model less ugly but its a non nonsense damage dealer with a 4++, the Kharybdiss is all about the gimic abilities.

 Sheokronath wrote:

Perhaps drop a few Witch Elves for an Assassin.

The only always about an assassin is to always keep your opponent guessing. Make sure that sometimes he is there in your army, sometimes he isn't.
You don't need an assassin in a witch elf cauldronstar, the ladies do enough killing. Though of course this means every now and then you do. Assassins do well where your opponent least expects them, they can leave units and go hunting if needs be, they don't need the surprise leap out.

 Sheokronath wrote:

Thank you for all your help Orlanth, Again, I really appreciate your patience and all the time you've taken to respond to me, it's been a great help. When I'm up and running I'll be sure to let you know how I got on.

You are welcome.