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Hey y'all, I'm building my first list since 5th and am putting together a shooty Chaos Space Marine list, but am struggling with how to build it. For reference my first 1000pts includes:

HQ:

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour
Warpsmith

ELITES:

Hellbrute
Hellbrute
Hellbrute

TROOPS:

10 Cultists
5 Chaos Space Marines
5 Chaos Space Marines

After giving all my HQs and Sergeants equipment and the Marines each weapons, this leaves me with about 125 points left for another unit. How would you go about equipping these units to build a shooty chaos marine list? What would you add to round this list out? I assume Alpha Legion tactics will be the most effective. None of the models are built yet though I do own the kits, so I'm free to equip them however. Thanks a ton!

The best CSM shooty army is actually Black Legion, Mainly due to Abaddon's ability to give full re-rolls to hit in his aura. This lets you stock up on heavy weapon options like Havocs and give them unerring accuracy. Nothing is stopping your Black Legionaires from marking Slaanesh and using Endless Cacophony either.

The second best CSM shooty army is probably Emperor's Children. Emperor's Children per the FAQ bring Noise Marines into troops, which lets you load up on blast masters and sonic blasters without going out of your way and Emperor's Children also have the best Hellbrute's (the Imperial Armor FAQ lets EC Brute's replace their multi melta with a 2 Blast Masters).

Alpha Legion is right up there with EC due to the -1 to hit. Alpha Legion does have the best overall trait though, and their unique strategem is still interesting despite being nerfed.

Anyway, CSM shooting power basically boils down to comboing Veterans of the Long War with Endless Cacophony on a strong shooting unit like Auto Cannon Havocs or Obliterators. Generic Space Marines aren't great, Cultists can be a strong combat unit in a huge squad (roughly 30-40 strong) so they can respawn with Tide of Traitors, and they can do some real damage with their auto guns with Veterans of the Long War.

Hellbrute's aren't usually the best choice. But i run a couple in my EC and they usually do pretty well.

 akaean wrote:
The best CSM shooty army is actually Black Legion, Mainly due to Abaddon's ability to give full re-rolls to hit in his aura. This lets you stock up on heavy weapon options like Havocs and give them unerring accuracy. Nothing is stopping your Black Legionaires from marking Slaanesh and using Endless Cacophony either.

The second best CSM shooty army is probably Emperor's Children. Emperor's Children per the FAQ bring Noise Marines into troops, which lets you load up on blast masters and sonic blasters without going out of your way and Emperor's Children also have the best Hellbrute's (the Imperial Armor FAQ lets EC Brute's replace their multi melta with a 2 Blast Masters).

Alpha Legion is right up there with EC due to the -1 to hit. Alpha Legion does have the best overall trait though, and their unique strategem is still interesting despite being nerfed.

Anyway, CSM shooting power basically boils down to comboing Veterans of the Long War with Endless Cacophony on a strong shooting unit like Auto Cannon Havocs or Obliterators. Generic Space Marines aren't great, Cultists can be a strong combat unit in a huge squad (roughly 30-40 strong) so they can respawn with Tide of Traitors, and they can do some real damage with their auto guns with Veterans of the Long War.

Hellbrute's aren't usually the best choice. But i run a couple in my EC and they usually do pretty well.

Yes and no, Abbadon is required for a shooty BL list and the trait to go with him (BL trait ) is gak. I would honestly reccomend IW, from the warlord trait which can help you keep massive cultist hordes in line, to the trait to ignore cover, which benefits gunlines more i say they honestly are a better contender then EC. On the other hand Emperors Children do indeed have alot of Dakka, but Cacophony is not exclusive so there is no problem with taking Noise Marines as an actual Elite choice for a IW list.
Granted Abbadon himself is pretty bonklers, but there are still people not liking to play against named Characters.

For gunline CSM these are prob your best options:
Lascannon and missile launcher helbrute. If you don't move can use the strat to fire twice at closest visible unit. Is often exactly the sort of unit you want to fire twice at (opponents transports or flyers baring down on your gunline)
Obliterators are a little unpredictable but devastating especially marked as slaanesh and using endless cacophony
Regular marines aren't in a great place but a squad of five with a heavy bolter and a combi bolter on the champ will clear troops pretty well.
I'd recommend to fill your troop slots look at them, plus a unit of 10 cultists then a big unit of cultists (30-40)
Predators are still decent, go with autocannon and lascannon sponsons
Autocannon Forgefiend can do work if you use the daemonforge strat liberally
Havocs with lascannons or heavy bolters depending on whether you expect to be up against troops or tanks

Castling up around Abaddon can be devestating, rerolling everything to hit is really strong and his 3 extra CP means you have plenty to spend on daemonforge, fire frenzy, endless cacophony and veterans.
Get a Slaanesh sorcerer casting prescience (+1 to hit rolls) and delightful agonies (5+ fnp)

Not sure about the warpsmith. Think you're better off spending the points on more guns but I've never really run one myself. You want enough HQs to get an extra spearhead detachment tho so maybe he's worth keeping in of you like him.

Hope that helps

Not Online!!! wrote:

 akaean wrote:
The best CSM shooty army is actually Black Legion, Mainly due to Abaddon's ability to give full re-rolls to hit in his aura. This lets you stock up on heavy weapon options like Havocs and give them unerring accuracy. Nothing is stopping your Black Legionaires from marking Slaanesh and using Endless Cacophony either.

The second best CSM shooty army is probably Emperor's Children. Emperor's Children per the FAQ bring Noise Marines into troops, which lets you load up on blast masters and sonic blasters without going out of your way and Emperor's Children also have the best Hellbrute's (the Imperial Armor FAQ lets EC Brute's replace their multi melta with a 2 Blast Masters).

Alpha Legion is right up there with EC due to the -1 to hit. Alpha Legion does have the best overall trait though, and their unique strategem is still interesting despite being nerfed.

Anyway, CSM shooting power basically boils down to comboing Veterans of the Long War with Endless Cacophony on a strong shooting unit like Auto Cannon Havocs or Obliterators. Generic Space Marines aren't great, Cultists can be a strong combat unit in a huge squad (roughly 30-40 strong) so they can respawn with Tide of Traitors, and they can do some real damage with their auto guns with Veterans of the Long War.

Hellbrute's aren't usually the best choice. But i run a couple in my EC and they usually do pretty well.

Yes and no, Abbadon is required for a shooty BL list and the trait to go with him (BL trait ) is gak. I would honestly reccomend IW, from the warlord trait which can help you keep massive cultist hordes in line, to the trait to ignore cover, which benefits gunlines more i say they honestly are a better contender then EC. On the other hand Emperors Children do indeed have alot of Dakka, but Cacophony is not exclusive so there is no problem with taking Noise Marines as an actual Elite choice for a IW list.
Granted Abbadon himself is pretty bonklers, but there are still people not liking to play against named Characters.

Well, let's not forget Abaddon's morale immunity aura. It covers a big area on the table and (for me) it's not hard to get it to apply to everything in my army. That's a little better than what you get with IW.

OP: your Helbrutes concern me. Even with the Warpsmith, they are not going to last very long against anything that does multiple wounds. That's not to say they are unusable, but it does mean they need to have range to their weapons.

If you are going to take them, consider lascannons and power scourges. Makes them a beatstick with ranged damage. Make sure they get rerolls to hit, no matter where they are coming from. Those rerolls will be important.

With the rest of your points, the best shooty option for you is massed cultists. It's hard to overstate how good they can be in low-point lists.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 akaean wrote:
The best CSM shooty army is actually Black Legion, Mainly due to Abaddon's ability to give full re-rolls to hit in his aura. This lets you stock up on heavy weapon options like Havocs and give them unerring accuracy. Nothing is stopping your Black Legionaires from marking Slaanesh and using Endless Cacophony either.

The second best CSM shooty army is probably Emperor's Children. Emperor's Children per the FAQ bring Noise Marines into troops, which lets you load up on blast masters and sonic blasters without going out of your way and Emperor's Children also have the best Hellbrute's (the Imperial Armor FAQ lets EC Brute's replace their multi melta with a 2 Blast Masters).

Alpha Legion is right up there with EC due to the -1 to hit. Alpha Legion does have the best overall trait though, and their unique strategem is still interesting despite being nerfed.

Anyway, CSM shooting power basically boils down to comboing Veterans of the Long War with Endless Cacophony on a strong shooting unit like Auto Cannon Havocs or Obliterators. Generic Space Marines aren't great, Cultists can be a strong combat unit in a huge squad (roughly 30-40 strong) so they can respawn with Tide of Traitors, and they can do some real damage with their auto guns with Veterans of the Long War.

Hellbrute's aren't usually the best choice. But i run a couple in my EC and they usually do pretty well.

Yes and no, Abbadon is required for a shooty BL list and the trait to go with him (BL trait ) is gak. I would honestly reccomend IW, from the warlord trait which can help you keep massive cultist hordes in line, to the trait to ignore cover, which benefits gunlines more i say they honestly are a better contender then EC. On the other hand Emperors Children do indeed have alot of Dakka, but Cacophony is not exclusive so there is no problem with taking Noise Marines as an actual Elite choice for a IW list.
Granted Abbadon himself is pretty bonklers, but there are still people not liking to play against named Characters.

Well, let's not forget Abaddon's morale immunity aura. It covers a big area on the table and (for me) it's not hard to get it to apply to everything in my army. That's a little better than what you get with IW.

OP: your Helbrutes concern me. Even with the Warpsmith, they are not going to last very long against anything that does multiple wounds. That's not to say they are unusable, but it does mean they need to have range to their weapons.

If you are going to take them, consider lascannons and power scourges. Makes them a beatstick with ranged damage. Make sure they get rerolls to hit, no matter where they are coming from. Those rerolls will be important.

With the rest of your points, the best shooty option for you is massed cultists. It's hard to overstate how good they can be in low-point lists.

I'd really like to keep the two Hellbrute models I have(a Venerable Dread and Ironclad Dread I'm converting) but am open to replacing the third. I'm hoping to have a Battalion and a Vanguard detachment once I go to 1500pts. The army is based on a Iron Hands successor that's gone renegade, so I really want to include the two walkers. What would you suggest replacing the third Hellbrute with, ideally another elite choice but I'm open to anything?

Nothing really in the elite slot is going to contribute much to a gunline army. Maybe noise marines but you're probably better focusing on a spearhead detachment. 2 units of obliterators and a predator would be my suggestion.
2 lascannon helbrutes is okay but a third I think is too much. You can only use the strat on one of them per turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or I'm guessing you have the ten marines box, I'd be tempted to try to find a bunch of heavy weapons (lascannons preferably) from a bits seller and make a few of them into devs.
Maybe a unit of 5 marines, one with a heavy bolter and a Combi bolter on champ
Unit of 5 devs, 2 with lascannons, 1 with a heavy bolter, 1 with just a bolter for ablative wound and a combi on the champ again

For Havocs, it is worth it to go 3x Las Cannon, 1x Missile. The Missile Launcher is mostly just there to use the Flakk Missile Strategem (and yes, due to the wording it can be combo'd with Endless Cacophony for 2d3 mortal wounds vs a flying target). A squad of 7 or so Havocs (so you have a few bolter bodies and the champ to absorb the first few hits) is a good idea if you want to go shooting heavy. Always mark them Slaanesh no matter what you do, as the option to use Endless Cacophony is way too good to leave on the table.

If you have the ability, I would play around a bit with your Hellbrutes to find a loadout that you like. Try out the twin las cannon with a missile launcher. Try heavy bolters with a melee weapon. Hellbrutes can be effective melee threats against most things if they have a Power Scourge or even the Fist (remember the errata giving everyone a generic CCW triggers the Helbrute's extra attack even if they only have one specialist melee weapon, so take advantage of your 5 attack Fist or 8 attack Scourge)

If you really want to run Hellbrute's the absolute best protection you can get for them is something like a Defiler (and/or a Maulerfiend). The Defiler is a big bulky daemon engine that commands significantly more attention than the Helbrutes. Even against seasoned opponents I find that my opponents tend to focus on the Defiler over the similarly priced and significantly more fragile Sonic Weapon armed Hellbrutes. Psychology is your friend, and if you have a Defiler buffed up with Weaver of Fates or Delightful Agonies or Miasma of Pestilence he can absorb enemy fire very effectively.

I guess my last point is how "shooty" do you want to be. Some players like @techsoldaten run very effective gunlines with heavy weapon support, screening units of cultists, and effective counter charge units to trouble shoot their lines. Other players like me prefer to focus on heavy close range shooting between 12-24 inches and aren't afraid to use melee offensively to finish the job on things the close range shooting didn't polish off. Both styles primarily rely on "shooting" but play and look very different on the table. (techsoldaten plays at a higher level than I do. I just play Chaos because I find them a ton of fun to play compared to my Aeldari)

Sorry can you clarify the extra attack on the helbrute? The rule on the datasheet is if the helbrute is armed with two cc weapons I don't understand why this would have changed?
Which FAQ is it in?
Thanks

Abaddon303 wrote:
Sorry can you clarify the extra attack on the helbrute? The rule on the datasheet is if the helbrute is armed with two cc weapons I don't understand why this would have changed?
Which FAQ is it in?
Thanks

Its in the main rulebook FAQ

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

"In addition to their other weapons all models are assumed to have a close combat weapon with the following profile:"

This means that every hellbrute starts with a generic ccw with with a s6, ap0 profile. This means that if your Helbrute has a Fist, he would have the fist and the aforementioned plain jane ccw. So he has 2 cc weapons and thus gets the extra attack. It also means that if you want to fluff a round of combat for whatever reason, you can choose to make your attacks with the generic ccw instead.

That's a bit gamey tho isn't it? Are people really playing it that way? I'm not sure I'm comfortable telling my opponent that with a straight face... :/

I guess it really depends on how you define "gamey". I mean can you really use "gamey" and "taking a Hellbrute" in the same sentence?

In your opinion does it break Hellbrute's in any meaningful way to have an extra cc attack? Would having an extra cc attack make a Hellbrute a better choice than a mauler fiend, or a defiler, or a unit of 3 obliterators for the average list?

I mean the truth is, as long as you explain it to your opponent before they game they will probably have a laugh at GW's poorly written rules and let you have fun. I mean if they really think its a problem you can always sub the Helbrute out for some Obliterators

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [50 PL, 864pts] ++

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler [12 PL, 240pts]: Warlord

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, The Eye of Night

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [12 PL, 152pts]: 37x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ Elites +

Helbrute [7 PL, 147pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [7 PL, 147pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Questor Traitoris) [25 PL, 489pts] ++

+ Lord of War +

Renegade Knight [25 PL, 489pts]: Heavy stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [36 PL, 647pts] ++

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [10 PL, 177pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Havoc w/ boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Havocs [10 PL, 177pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Havoc w/ boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [111 PL, 2000pts] ++


I would make it like this for 2k points.

Abaddon303 wrote:
That's a bit gamey tho isn't it? Are people really playing it that way? I'm not sure I'm comfortable telling my opponent that with a straight face... :/

It's very gamey, the extra attack was intended if you take two specific helbrute melee weapons. If someone tried that one against me I'd know I was in for one of THOSE games.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
That's a bit gamey tho isn't it? Are people really playing it that way? I'm not sure I'm comfortable telling my opponent that with a straight face... :/

It's very gamey, the extra attack was intended if you take two specific helbrute melee weapons. If someone tried that one against me I'd know I was in for one of THOSE games.

Because Hellbrutes are so good that they have been ruling the top tables at every major GT thanks to their extra attack? I mean come on. If that is your attitude, I would gladly pack up my Chaos Space Marines fluffy list including Hellbrutes and bring out my Mechanized Craftworld Eldar... At the end of the day its a legal buff to Hellbrutes, a unit that undeniably needs a buff, and even with that buff they are still an aggressively mediocre unit. Its an unintended buff, but its not something they didn't need.

 akaean wrote:
For Havocs, it is worth it to go 3x Las Cannon, 1x Missile. The Missile Launcher is mostly just there to use the Flakk Missile Strategem (and yes, due to the wording it can be combo'd with Endless Cacophony for 2d3 mortal wounds vs a flying target). A squad of 7 or so Havocs (so you have a few bolter bodies and the champ to absorb the first few hits) is a good idea if you want to go shooting heavy. Always mark them Slaanesh no matter what you do, as the option to use Endless Cacophony is way too good to leave on the table.

If you have the ability, I would play around a bit with your Hellbrutes to find a loadout that you like. Try out the twin las cannon with a missile launcher. Try heavy bolters with a melee weapon. Hellbrutes can be effective melee threats against most things if they have a Power Scourge or even the Fist (remember the errata giving everyone a generic CCW triggers the Helbrute's extra attack even if they only have one specialist melee weapon, so take advantage of your 5 attack Fist or 8 attack Scourge)

If you really want to run Hellbrute's the absolute best protection you can get for them is something like a Defiler (and/or a Maulerfiend). The Defiler is a big bulky daemon engine that commands significantly more attention than the Helbrutes. Even against seasoned opponents I find that my opponents tend to focus on the Defiler over the similarly priced and significantly more fragile Sonic Weapon armed Hellbrutes. Psychology is your friend, and if you have a Defiler buffed up with Weaver of Fates or Delightful Agonies or Miasma of Pestilence he can absorb enemy fire very effectively.

I guess my last point is how "shooty" do you want to be. Some players like @techsoldaten run very effective gunlines with heavy weapon support, screening units of cultists, and effective counter charge units to trouble shoot their lines. Other players like me prefer to focus on heavy close range shooting between 12-24 inches and aren't afraid to use melee offensively to finish the job on things the close range shooting didn't polish off. Both styles primarily rely on "shooting" but play and look very different on the table. (techsoldaten plays at a higher level than I do. I just play Chaos because I find them a ton of fun to play compared to my Aeldari)

Aww... the fact you remembered is flattering. You raise a really good point. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about what 'shooty' means for Chaos Legions.

IMO the biggest change for Chaos in 8th edition has been the viability of long-range shooty (36"+) lists. In previous editions, you just couldn't do this, your best weapons were always mid-range and the rules (especially around split fire) made it extremely wasteful to try to fight from across the board. While there were always Forgeworld options like Spartans and Conversion Beamers, they couldn't be the biggest part of your army. But 8th edition lascannons are a lot simpler to use, CSM squads can take 2 at 10 men, and you can fire heavy weapons while moving. While not everyone sees it this way, those changes are very important and made Chaos a much bigger threat at 36+ inches.

Change is not always lasting and the meta is different from what it was even 6 months ago. While I've gotten a lot of mileage from long-ranged shooty, certain lists have become a wall for me. Drukhari flyer lists and (I suspect soon) Ork Cult of Speed lists are a problem for long-range Chaos. Specifically, those Razorwings and Ravagers are very points efficient for the number of dissie shots the bring and a fast Ork list can tie up a pure gunline before it does it's damage.

Any shooty army needs to plan against lists like these. Counting on long-range firepower to pick off the big baddies in an opponent's army from a distance isn't the safe bet it once was. At the same time, I'm not convinced about mid-range shooty, it still feels like glass cannon territory to me. Obliterators can be great, but AP and damage is still random. Sonic Weapons are still just 4-shot bolters that ignore cover, the fact they can shoot twice via Stratagem doesn't make then supreme. Forgefiends need Prescience to be a real threat and it's hard to keep up even with a jump-pack Sorcerer. It's not that they can't be effective - they can be overwhelming - it's that a lot of things need to go right for mid-range shooty to work. I've seen too many games where a key unit is gunned down first turn and the rest of the army flails before it even gets to move.

So I think there needs to be a hybrid of these approaches. The list I've been playing recently is something I call a beatstick gunline, emphasizing reliability over potential in mid-range shooting with resilient units that hold their own in combat. There's still lascannons and lots of Cultists. Currently playtesting and will share it on the CSM tactics thread at some point as a way of discussing the need for balance in shooty armies.

To the OP: I realize the issue may be that you don't have the right models. But think about points efficiency before you commit to Helbrutes. For a pure shooty army, a Predator would be the better option in most situations. More guns, more wounds, not that much of a cost difference. Other people like Havocs and they are a perfectly valid option. But it may help you more to have something that's not Infantry. A lot of sub-1500 point lists focus on anti-infantry, you don't want to build around that option alone.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Helbrutes with lascannons and power scourges as a secondary threat. I've tabled opponents in games where they were all that's left of my army. But you don't have a big primary threat in your list and that means the Helbutes are the targets until they're dead. Here's a way to think about it: take away the Helbrutes and tell me if you could call the rest of your army 'shooty.' What is there that lets you fight at 24"+ and why is that going to win you games?

If you are going to commit to the 2 Helbrutes, that's fine, but plan around them. As a replacement for the third Helbrute in a 1000 point list, I would load up on Slaaneshi Cultists. They are surprisingly deadly and you could get at least 20 of them for the same cost as one Helbrute. The fact the others are going to be a target means you get an opportunity to bring up a large mob to do some damage. Save CPs for Tide of Traitors towards the 3rd or 4th turn to maximize their efficiency.

For that matter, look at your HQs and think about what they give you. Auras and abilities are really important in 8th edition. The Warpsmith is going to repair a Helbrute in the amount of one wound per turn. Is that enough to make a difference? Because that Warpsmith is not going to add much offensively at range and most things that reliably hit Helrbutes are going to do more than one wound per shot. That Chaos Lord is going to allow your troops to reroll 1s on hit rolls. Is that enough of a difference at range? Abaddon isn't that much more expensive and he also makes your troops immune to morale. What happens if you get rid of both your HQs and switch to a Daemon Prince with Wings?

I'm saying look at your HQs because you are concentrating a lot of value in those Helbrutes in a low-model-count list. They need to perform as well as possible while they are on the board and everything else has to pick up the slack once they go down. If you really want this list to be shooty, that's great, but think about what that means and how your troop / HQ selection makes it possible. You're not off to a bad start but this needs work.

 akaean wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
That's a bit gamey tho isn't it? Are people really playing it that way? I'm not sure I'm comfortable telling my opponent that with a straight face... :/

It's very gamey, the extra attack was intended if you take two specific helbrute melee weapons. If someone tried that one against me I'd know I was in for one of THOSE games.

Because Hellbrutes are so good that they have been ruling the top tables at every major GT thanks to their extra attack? I mean come on. If that is your attitude, I would gladly pack up my Chaos Space Marines fluffy list including Hellbrutes and bring out my Mechanized Craftworld Eldar... At the end of the day its a legal buff to Hellbrutes, a unit that undeniably needs a buff, and even with that buff they are still an aggressively mediocre unit. Its an unintended buff, but its not something they didn't need.

How good a unit is or whether you think it "needs a buff" has no relevance on whether or not your opponent would be comfortable with gamey rules interpretations. My attitude is to try and conduct myself in a gentlemanly manner and avoid using rules loopholes where the effects are obviously not as intended, even if there is a RAW argument to be made. I certainly wouldn't be recommending them as tactics to others.

As for actual tactics I think there is a place for Helbrutes in non fluffy lists but probably not with melee options anyway. I'd take 3 with the LC/ML combo.

Also your supposed threat to use eldar if someone questions your use of the extra attack is just bizarre.

 Tonberry7 wrote:


How good a unit is or whether you think it "needs a buff" has no relevance on whether or not your opponent would be comfortable with gamey rules interpretations. My attitude is to try and conduct myself in a gentlemanly manner and avoid using rules loopholes where the effects are obviously not as intended, even if there is a RAW argument to be made. I certainly wouldn't be recommending them as tactics to others.

As for actual tactics I think there is a place for Helbrutes in non fluffy lists but probably not with melee options anyway. I'd take 3 with the LC/ML combo.

Also your supposed threat to use eldar if someone questions your use of the extra attack is just bizarre.

I mean the whole point is you have this very "elitist" perspective with respect to how you believe the rules are written. Would you feel differently if the entry was in the Chaos FAQ and had specifically gave Hellbrutes a generic CCW? Do you feel that Hellbrutes' were excluded from the Errata granting all units a generic CCW? Do you think GW intended to exclude hellbrutes from that errata? I want to make a point that it is exceedingly arrogant to accuse somebody who is playing by the rules of bad faith and exploiting loopholes. Who are you to decide what the drafters of GW's rulebook FAQ intended? Who are you to determine when a legitimate reading of the rules is "gamey"? Look at it this way. If you find that the rules as worded application of the FAQ to Hellbrutes is gamey, then don't use it. Don't go around accusing players following the rules of being that guy.

My point with Eldar is that my Eldar army as a whole is a far more competitive army than my Chaos Space Marines. I play Chaos Space Marines for fun to use units I like and units that I have spent a lot of time converting and painting. I play my CSM pretty well because I am familiar with my list and know what all of my units can do. I also know exactly what units i would cut if I wanted to convert the list into an actual tournament class list. The point is, I'm not "threatening to use eldar" per say, I was attempting (albiet inelegantly) to convey that somebody bringing melee armed Hellbrutes to a game is probably not out trying to "gamey" or "that guy". They are, however, following the rules of the game with the official datasheet and the official FAQ and trying to make the most of a sub-optimal choice that they included in their list for fun.

 akaean wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


How good a unit is or whether you think it "needs a buff" has no relevance on whether or not your opponent would be comfortable with gamey rules interpretations. My attitude is to try and conduct myself in a gentlemanly manner and avoid using rules loopholes where the effects are obviously not as intended, even if there is a RAW argument to be made. I certainly wouldn't be recommending them as tactics to others.

As for actual tactics I think there is a place for Helbrutes in non fluffy lists but probably not with melee options anyway. I'd take 3 with the LC/ML combo.

Also your supposed threat to use eldar if someone questions your use of the extra attack is just bizarre.

I mean the whole point is you have this very "elitist" perspective with respect to how you believe the rules are written. Would you feel differently if the entry was in the Chaos FAQ and had specifically gave Hellbrutes a generic CCW? Do you feel that Hellbrutes' were excluded from the Errata granting all units a generic CCW? Do you think GW intended to exclude hellbrutes from that errata? I want to make a point that it is exceedingly arrogant to accuse somebody who is playing by the rules of bad faith and exploiting loopholes. Who are you to decide what the drafters of GW's rulebook FAQ intended? Who are you to determine when a legitimate reading of the rules is "gamey"? Look at it this way. If you find that the rules as worded application of the FAQ to Hellbrutes is gamey, then don't use it. Don't go around accusing players following the rules of being that guy.

My point with Eldar is that my Eldar army as a whole is a far more competitive army than my Chaos Space Marines. I play Chaos Space Marines for fun to use units I like and units that I have spent a lot of time converting and painting. I play my CSM pretty well because I am familiar with my list and know what all of my units can do. I also know exactly what units i would cut if I wanted to convert the list into an actual tournament class list. The point is, I'm not "threatening to use eldar" per say, I was attempting (albiet inelegantly) to convey that somebody bringing melee armed Hellbrutes to a game is probably not out trying to "gamey" or "that guy". They are, however, following the rules of the game with the official datasheet and the official FAQ and trying to make the most of a sub-optimal choice that they included in their list for fun.

OK so firstly apologies if you thought I was being elitist or arrogant. Agreed RAW you would get an extra attack for having a fist and the generic CCW.

All I'm saying is that I think this is an unintended consequence of the FAQ and that the intent is still that you need two proper Helbrute CCW to get an extra attack. And that claiming it with just one fist etc. Would definitely be considered gamey by some like the OP was worried about.

As I said I like to play a gentlemanly game so if I had a melee Helbrute then no I wouldn't claim an extra attack as I don't think that was intended and I wouldn't want my opponent to think I was that guy.

If someone insisted on it against me I'd say i didnt think it was meant to work that way but probably just roll with it though given the RAW. After all if they are taking melee Helbrutes it's probably not the strongest list in the world.

So after taking in everyone's recommendations, I'm thinking zof going with something along these lines for my first 1000pts:

HQ

Chaos Lord
Damon Prince with Wings

Troops

10 x Cultists
20 x Cultists
5 x CSM w/ Missile Launcher

Elites

Hellbrute w/ Lascannon & Missile Launcher
Hellbrute w/ Lascannon & Missile Launcher

Heavy Support

Maulerfiend or Forgefiend

The idea is the use the Fiend as a distraction from my Hellbrutes, while the cultists provide screens/more fire support from mark of Slaanesh and the stratagem. The Daemon Prince can be a movable buffer and CC unit, and the lord will hang out with the gun line to keep rerolls going. What do yall think?

I think it looks good! For your list I think the Forgefiend would suit you better than the Mauler. Aside from the Prince you don't have a ton of CQC bulk. The Maulerfiend really works best in a list that is chomping at the bit to rush the opponent.

If you are concerned about counter charge, consider a Defiler with a Twin Linked Las Cannon to blast away from the back line and help the DP address aggressive opponents.

You would also likely be better served with a Sorcerer than the Chaos Lord. Remember, you are getting a re-roll 1s bubble from your DP. The Sorcerer would add a few extra spells into your rotation and the Dark Heretecus Discipline is really good.
Prescience is potent on any shooting unit,
Death Hex can make or break an opponent who relies on a good invulnerable save
Delightful Agonies can give any Slaanesh marked unit FNP 5
Even if you just need to smite spam for a turn, you can throw out 2x smite and an infernal gaze.
Don't forget the amazing Warp Time, and Diabolic Strength on your DP... it helps to have a few psychers on the table to use these spells, and don't forget you can use the Chaos Familiar Strategem to pick up a spell you want / need on the fly.