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2018/11/07 01:39:01
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
2018/11/07 01:44:54
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
2018/11/07 01:54:19
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Grimskul wrote: Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway.
2018/11/07 01:58:56
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Grimskul wrote: Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway.
"Hate" is a strong word. The only thing that the Emperor clearly hates is Chaos, since his end goal is based around defeating/starving them. Curze and Angron were basically just tools, so long as they did their job, the Emperor didn't care. Angron even notes how the Emperor never bothered to spend time with him prepping him for the Crusade like he did with the other Primarchs. If the Emperor really did care (or hate, as you mentioned) then he would have actually sanctioned him like he did to Lorgar.
2018/11/07 02:02:14
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Grimskul wrote: Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.
The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway.
"Hate" is a strong word. The only thing that the Emperor clearly hates is Chaos, since his end goal is based around defeating/starving them. Curze and Angron were basically just tools, so long as they did their job, the Emperor didn't care. Angron even notes how the Emperor never bothered to spend time with him prepping him for the Crusade like he did with the other Primarchs. If the Emperor really did care (or hate, as you mentioned) then he would have actually sanctioned him like he did to Lorgar.
But he did reprimand Kurze and Angron, and Angron and Kurze clashed with their brothers because of their extreme way of doing things. (this would imply what Angron and Kurze did was mostly exclusive to them).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 02:02:47
2018/11/07 02:34:27
Subject: Re:Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
If the Emperor actually gave a crap about what Angron was doing he would have removed him from power, and either locked him up or executed him. He did neither, which meant he tolerated his behavior. Prior to the Heresy we have three examples of the Emperor (possibly ) coming down on a legion/primarch for their behavior
What ever happened to the missing two. (Highly hinted that Russ and his Wolves killed at least one).
Lorgar getting sanctioned in an over the top manner because he wouldn't obey the Imperial Truth.
Magnus for breaking the webway project and not obeying his previous sanction of cut back on the warp dust.
This makes it very clear, the Emperor didn't care if his sons committed over the top genocide or even attack/ fought each other. As long as his long game plan wasn't messed with go wild. As another example, if I remember the time line right Curze freaked out on Dorn, nearly killed him and blew up his home world a good decade or two before the HH started and the most he got for punishment was, well he's kinda a lost cause but that's the futures Emperor's problem.
2018/11/07 02:38:33
Subject: Re:Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
HoundsofDemos wrote: If the Emperor actually gave a crap about what Angron was doing he would have removed him from power, and either locked him up or executed him. He did neither, which meant he tolerated his behavior. Prior to the Heresy we have three examples of the Emperor (possibly ) coming down on a legion/primarch for their behavior
What ever happened to the missing two. (Highly hinted that Russ and his Wolves killed at least one).
Lorgar getting sanctioned in an over the top manner because he wouldn't obey the Imperial Truth.
Magnus for breaking the webway project and not obeying his previous sanction of cut back on the warp dust.
This makes it very clear, the Emperor didn't care if his sons committed over the top genocide or even attack/ fought each other. As long as his long game plan wasn't messed with go wild. As another example, if I remember the time line right Curze freaked out on Dorn, nearly killed him and blew up his home world a good decade or two before the HH started and the most he got for punishment was, well he's kinda a lost cause but that's the futures Emperor's problem.
He did chastise them for what they did.
He tolerated them. The Emperor chastising Angron and Kurze, and Angron and Kurze clashing with their brothers implies what they did was mostly exclusive to themselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 02:39:40
2018/11/07 02:43:14
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Repeating the same thing a again and again doesn't make it more true. A slap on the wrist and a telling off is not an appropriate chastisement for genocide. As Hounds said the Emps really didn't give a gak unless his plans were being messed with. Furthermore it is not only those two Primarchs and legions that committed such deeds but all of them, that was the point of the GC, to bring all of humanity under the Emperors thrall and kill anything that was a threat.
On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
2018/11/07 02:46:17
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
ingtaer wrote: Repeating the same thing a again and again doesn't make it more true. A slap on the wrist and a telling off is not an appropriate chastisement for genocide. As Hounds said the Emps really didn't give a gak unless his plans were being messed with. Furthermore it is not only those two Primarchs and legions that committed such deeds but all of them, that was the point of the GC, to bring all of humanity under the Emperors thrall and kill anything that was a threat.
Yes, kill anything that was a threat.
and I have my doubts about that, since Age of Darkness says what Angron did horrified his brothers and was not something they did, and the Emperor conveniently chastised Angron, but never any of his brothers (outside of Kurze. And if they all did do it)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 02:46:34
2018/11/07 03:06:51
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Because he didn't care, at all. The only times he was shown to actually care were Magnus and Lorgar both because they were messing with his plans. The 2 missing primarchs as well probably but we don't know that for a fact.
And by a threat, during the GC that meant anything that wasn't human or didn't instantly bend the knee. Isolationist systems and polities were seen as a threat not because they could materially harm the IOM but because they did not want to be part of it.
On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
2018/11/07 03:12:53
Subject: Re:Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
I just explained my quote from Age of Darkness. And the Emperor chastising Angron and Kurze, but not their brothers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate (they never intended to destroy them) and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 03:16:18
2018/11/07 03:32:27
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Yeah you have said that lots and I do mean lots. What was the end result? Oh yeah they all died and the exemplars of peace truth and justice used their body parts as weapons...
You said that the Emperor chastised Angron and Kruze, which he kind of did, he also chastised Magnus and Lorgar, he used Russ as a blunt instrument, he overlooked Sanguineous, Guillman and Lion in favour of Horus (also a form of chastisement), he lied to his sons perpetually, he used them as tools and weapons. He did not care. I repeat, he did not care. At all. Not one jot. His plans for taking over the galaxy were entirely selfish and anything or anyone that did or even feasibly could hinder them was crushed, mercilessly and without remorse. Emps is not some bright shining beacon of morality but an utterly ruthless psychopath. Once you understand that a lot of the things you seem to struggle with will make a lot more sense.
On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
2018/11/07 03:41:35
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
ingtaer wrote: Yeah you have said that lots and I do mean lots. What was the end result? Oh yeah they all died and the exemplars of peace truth and justice used their body parts as weapons...
You said that the Emperor chastised Angron and Kruze, which he kind of did, he also chastised Magnus and Lorgar, he used Russ as a blunt instrument, he overlooked Sanguineous, Guillman and Lion in favour of Horus (also a form of chastisement), he lied to his sons perpetually, he used them as tools and weapons. He did not care. I repeat, he did not care. At all. Not one jot. His plans for taking over the galaxy were entirely selfish and anything or anyone that did or even feasibly could hinder them was crushed, mercilessly and without remorse. Emps is not some bright shining beacon of morality but an utterly ruthless psychopath. Once you understand that a lot of the things you seem to struggle with will make a lot more sense.
I understand completely.
Sanguinius?
Since the Emperor chastised Angron and Kurze, and Age of Darkness says that what Angron did was something most of his brothers did not do, I think it was exclusive mostly to Angron and Kurze. But the Emperor did not do anything to stop them.
His reasons for conquering the galaxy were so that humanity can psychically evolve. His plans have always been to save humanity as far back as the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, as far back as the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader). Dark Imperium confirm this.
The point being is that the Laer shows the Imperium is not completely xenophobic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ingtaer wrote: Yeah you have said that lots and I do mean lots. What was the end result? Oh yeah they all died and the exemplars of peace truth and justice used their body parts as weapons...
You said that the Emperor chastised Angron and Kruze, which he kind of did, he also chastised Magnus and Lorgar, he used Russ as a blunt instrument, he overlooked Sanguineous, Guillman and Lion in favour of Horus (also a form of chastisement), he lied to his sons perpetually, he used them as tools and weapons. He did not care. I repeat, he did not care. At all. Not one jot. His plans for taking over the galaxy were entirely selfish and anything or anyone that did or even feasibly could hinder them was crushed, mercilessly and without remorse. Emps is not some bright shining beacon of morality but an utterly ruthless psychopath. Once you understand that a lot of the things you seem to struggle with will make a lot more sense.
Do you even know the hell psychopathy/ASPD is? The Emperor is not a psychopath. A psychopath is born a psychopath. And they do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire (https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821) consolation for his family's murder at the hands of raiders.
And psychopathy/ASPD is misrepresented by the Hollywood stereotype.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 03:47:51
2018/11/07 03:51:43
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
The fact that they all died does kind of suggest that and the fact that Fulgrim decided he was going to slaughter them and did not get a telling off says that his decision was whole heartily approved of.
You say that he planned to save humanity, that's not really true. He wanted to mould humanity in his image with himself in control.
So we have established that Emps didn't give a gak, so can the thread be closed? The question is answered.
Of a more interesting point, have you (not specifically you, Onething) ever considered what moral strictures the IOM had during the GC? other than disobedience/defiance against Emps or IOM its never really discussed.
ingtaer wrote: Do you even know the hell psychopathy/ASPD is? The Emperor is not a psychopath. A psychopath is born a psychopath. And they do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire (https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821) consolation for his family's murder at the hands of raiders.
And psychopathy/ASPD is misrepresented by the Hollywood stereotype.
Yeah I do, do you? Cause someone who advocates genocide totally unabashed (let alone carries it through) is by definition a psychopath. Murdering billions or trillions of people does not show very great empathy. You cherry picked one example where he says sorry and think that makes him alright. That suggests that you have reading comprehension issues, are a troll or are really not very bright.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 03:55:05
On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
2018/11/07 03:56:04
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
ingtaer wrote: The fact that they all died does kind of suggest that and the fact that Fulgrim decided he was going to slaughter them and did not get a telling off says that his decision was whole heartily approved of.
You say that he planned to save humanity, that's not really true. He wanted to mould humanity in his image with himself in control.
So we have established that Emps didn't give a gak, so can the thread be closed? The question is answered.
Of a more interesting point, have you (not specifically you, Onething) ever considered what moral strictures the IOM had during the GC? other than disobedience/defiance against Emps or IOM its never really discussed.
And do you have proof he wanted himself in control? Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Its a fact ever since 1st Edition Rogue Trader the Emperor wants to save humanity. And Dark Imperium also confirms this.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
EDIT: The Emperor is selfless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 03:57:10
2018/11/07 03:56:40
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
No, I am not. You just assume that. Don't assume things.
Prove what you said. Prove the Emperor does not want to save humanity. Its always been a fact as far back as the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader that he wants to.
And nothing suggests the Laer would have ever been destroyed for being aliens. They were on page 28 in the Fulgrim book.
And the Emperor is not a literal psychopath. Go learn what psychopathy/ASPD actually is before spouting it.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Because he was deeply stupid.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2018/11/07 05:24:20
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
I think he knew how gone he was, he did however send the wolves after him, but the Emperor probably though what Erebus though, that they were useful they just needed to be let off their leash when needed.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Because he was deeply stupid.
Grey Knight player saying the Emperor is stupid: heresy.
He's not stupid at all. 40k fans are experts at knowing what to do when all the cards are dealt. The Emperor did not foresee Chaos taking over, so why would he perform actions to try and stop his sons going traitor in the future when he had no idea that would happen. 40k fans never cease to amaze me. Causing Lorgar to kneel, led him to turn to Chaos; therefore, the Emperor is stupid because he should have known Chaos was going to turn Horus and half the legions against him. 'He should of known' why, even tzeentch doesn't know the future completely.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 05:29:46
2018/11/07 05:49:09
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
I think he knew how gone he was, he did however send the wolves after him, but the Emperor probably though what Erebus though, that they were useful they just needed to be let off their leash when needed.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Because he was deeply stupid.
Grey Knight player saying the Emperor is stupid: heresy.
He's not stupid at all. 40k fans are experts at knowing what to do when all the cards are dealt. The Emperor did not foresee Chaos taking over, so why would he perform actions to try and stop his sons going traitor in the future when he had no idea that would happen. 40k fans never cease to amaze me. Causing Lorgar to kneel, led him to turn to Chaos; therefore, the Emperor is stupid because he should have known Chaos was going to turn Horus and half the legions against him. 'He should of known' why, even tzeentch doesn't know the future completely.
Yeah, the Emperor did send Russ after him. But in the Forgeworld books, he only chastised Angron and nothing else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I mean the Emperor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 05:50:38
2018/11/07 06:00:46
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Yeah the main reason why Angron and Kurze got "slaps on the wrist" compared to Lorgar & the Word Bearers getting publicly humiliated and have their greatest achievement turned to dust is because Angron and Kurze were conquering systems at a rapid rate, while Lorgar took his time and was lagging behind the other Primarchs in terms of expansive progress.
That and wanton murder in war isn't as bad as god-worship in the eyes of the Emperor, because of the Imperial Truth and all that (where "all that" is the Chaos Gods and accepting that gods exist might make one more open to worshipping them).
2018/11/07 06:18:25
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah the main reason why Angron and Kurze got "slaps on the wrist" compared to Lorgar & the Word Bearers getting publicly humiliated and have their greatest achievement turned to dust is because Angron and Kurze were conquering systems at a rapid rate, while Lorgar took his time and was lagging behind the other Primarchs in terms of expansive progress.
That and wanton murder in war isn't as bad as god-worship in the eyes of the Emperor, because of the Imperial Truth and all that (where "all that" is the Chaos Gods and accepting that gods exist might make one more open to worshipping them).
Were you being serious when you called the Emperor a psychopath? He is not a literal psychopath. And for your information, psychopathy is misrepresented by the Hollywood stereotype.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders and knew how he felt.
And you still haven't proven crap. Dark Imperium confirms the Emperor wants to save humanity. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader as well confirms it (and I know the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but there you have it). The Emperor wants humanity to psychically evolve.
And the Emperor only took charge when humanity needed during the Age of Strife. He only came out after 40,000 years because of that.
Like when he talked with Perpetual Oll Persson.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
2018/11/07 07:48:14
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Are you saying recent books like Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind about the Emperor selflessly wanting to save humanity are wrong? And the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader also confirms it (and I know the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but yes). He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
The Emperor doesn't give a crap about power (and that reminds, Hitler believed in his cause, even though it was deluded and wrong.)
And its basically said the Laer would have been part of the Imperium if Fulgrim did not like how they thought they were comparable/superior to humanity. The Laer prove the Imperium was not completely xenophobic.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders, and knew how he felt.
Put it this way, I'm right. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm he wants to save humanity.
And we don't know how he views Gulliman and his brothers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 07:51:53
2018/11/07 08:06:50
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
I think he knew how gone he was, he did however send the wolves after him, but the Emperor probably though what Erebus though, that they were useful they just needed to be let off their leash when needed.
Onething123456 wrote: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron for committing an atrocity? He basically gave Angron a slap on the wrist in the Forgeworld books for committing an atrocity.
Because he was deeply stupid.
Grey Knight player saying the Emperor is stupid: heresy.
He's not stupid at all. 40k fans are experts at knowing what to do when all the cards are dealt. The Emperor did not foresee Chaos taking over, so why would he perform actions to try and stop his sons going traitor in the future when he had no idea that would happen. 40k fans never cease to amaze me. Causing Lorgar to kneel, led him to turn to Chaos; therefore, the Emperor is stupid because he should have known Chaos was going to turn Horus and half the legions against him. 'He should of known' why, even tzeentch doesn't know the future completely.
Yeah, the Emperor did send Russ after him. But in the Forgeworld books, he only chastised Angron and nothing else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I mean the Emperor.
So?
2018/11/07 08:07:49
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Are you saying recent books like Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind about the Emperor selflessly wanting to save humanity are wrong? And the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader also confirms it (and I know the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but yes). He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
The Emperor doesn't give a crap about power (and that reminds, Hitler believed in his cause, even though it was deluded and wrong.)
And its basically said the Laer would have been part of the Imperium if Fulgrim did not like how they thought they were comparable/superior to humanity. The Laer prove the Imperium was not completely xenophobic.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders, and knew how he felt.
Put it this way, I'm right. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm he wants to save humanity.
And we don't know how he views Gulliman and his brothers.
Psychopaths have empathy.
2018/11/07 08:16:44
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Are you saying recent books like Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind about the Emperor selflessly wanting to save humanity are wrong? And the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader also confirms it (and I know the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but yes). He wants humanity to psychically evolve.
The Emperor doesn't give a crap about power (and that reminds, Hitler believed in his cause, even though it was deluded and wrong.)
And its basically said the Laer would have been part of the Imperium if Fulgrim did not like how they thought they were comparable/superior to humanity. The Laer prove the Imperium was not completely xenophobic.
The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Prove it. Its fact of the lore of he wants to save humanity
The Emperor wants to "save humanity" in the same way that many tyrants wanted to "save their country". By that they mean their idealised vision of a population with them as the uncontested leaders and moral paragons. The Emperor massacres pretty much all those who opposes his regime and ideology and like all tyrants and monsters hides their vices and savagery underneath a thin varnish of civilisation and righteousness.
No, it does not. They never initially intended to wipe them out, and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's not because they were aliens. Prove that they would have been destroyed for being aliens.
Sufer not the xenos to live is one of the tenets of the Imperial Truth and following that, Creed.
You don;t even know what psychopathy actually is.
I do and to me, his immense cruelty, his despotic nature, his callousness and lack of any compassion or tenderness toward those who calls his sons, his difficulties to understand fully human emotions and motivations as evidenced with Lorgar and later Horus seems to demonstrate that the Emperor was a high functionning psychopath.
Psychopaths do not have empathy by definition. The Emperor has empathy. He gave Uriah Olathaire sympathies for his family's murder at the hands of raiders, and knew how he felt.
Put it this way, I'm right. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm he wants to save humanity.
And we don't know how he views Gulliman and his brothers.
Psychopaths have empathy.
Alright, but Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) says the Emperor wants to save humanity.
2018/11/07 08:50:30
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
Hitler wanted to save the aryan race but that doesn’t make him a hero. Just a dick with a cause. Like the emperor. He didn’t punish them because he didn’t really care. As said above it was all about results. He was ok with mass murder and use of force against civilian populations. (Human and alien). Regardless of his good intentions he was as guilty of genocide as any of them.
And you can not justify genocide. End of.
2018/11/07 08:55:58
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor do more to punish Angron?
epronovost wrote: The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Yeah, but isn't the whole point of the 40k setting to say 'what if a totalitarian, authoritarian tyrant REALLY WAS the only way to save mankind?'. I mean, that's where loads of the horror of the setting comes from - we know that the Imperium (even the one of 30k) would be a horrible place to live, but we also know what would happen without it, and that it would be even more horrible. So we end up with a universe of grey areas with lots of conflict, which is perfect for a war-game.
People who go 'the Emperor is just a Stalinesque tyrant' are missing the point that we know that there was a viable alternative to, say, Stalinist Russia. In the 40k setting, there is no alternative to The Imperium, because without it and The Emperor daemons would eat everyone's brains. Which means you can't really look the morals involved the same way.
I tend to believe what 99% of the background setting puts out there in almost every case, in both 30k and 40k - that the Emperor is really on a mission to save humanity from being eaten by Chaos, and after 25,000 years of hanging around in the background he finally sees his chance to defeat Chaos once and for all, but doing so requires building an authoritarian empire to stop all the worshipping and psykering.
To answer the OP:
The Emperor doesn't punish Angron because, at the point he finds him, he really doesn't have the time. He took power from Chaos to create the Primarchs and he's in the middle of a ridiculously audacious plan to turn that power back against Chaos by using them and their Legions stop all Chaos-worshipping in the galaxy while HE goes back and creates a way of getting humanity into the web way. If he can do those two things, humanity is safe from Chaos.
But he knows that Chaos will realise and fight back and so he's chosen to do this just as the warp is reeling from the birth of Slaanesh. He knows he has maybe a couple of hundred years AT MOST to achieve this.
And then Chaos goes and sends Argel Til back in time and his perfect Imperial Generals get scattered all over the galaxy and he has to spend the first 100 years of that time finding them instead of building webway gates. Plus, they're all (obviously) now tainted by Chaos. Plus, they all now think of him as some sort of father and all have different expectations of what he's meant to be and do. The first few Primarchs he finds spend years on Terra being re-Imperialised, but by the time he gets to Angron he really doesn't have time for that. It's the same reason Lorgar's worship or Nikaea are dealt with so heavy-handedly - they're all silly little sideshows to the Emperor, who's trying to attempt something way, way more important on a ridiculous time limit!!
That's obvious. Hitler was a maniac who was a WW1 veteran who loathed Germany's defeat in WW1. And the Emperor chastised Angron for committing an atrocity, but that's it.
epronovost wrote: The Emperor is an emperor. Emperors are totalitarian autocrats; its a fundamental feature of Imperial power. By taking the title of Emperor and by creating a society based on social Orders with him sitting, alone, at the very top the Emperor's deisre to be in power are both evident and undeniable. It's also good to note that Emperor method of choice to support his claim to absolute power is through military strength. The Emperor is a warmonger. He came into power thanks to his army of gene enhanced super warriors and maintained himself in authority through military might and intimidation.
Yeah, but isn't the whole point of the 40k setting to say 'what if a totalitarian, authoritarian tyrant REALLY WAS the only way to save mankind?'. I mean, that's where loads of the horror of the setting comes from - we know that the Imperium (even the one of 30k) would be a horrible place to live, but we also know what would happen without it, and that it would be even more horrible. So we end up with a universe of grey areas with lots of conflict, which is perfect for a war-game.
People who go 'the Emperor is just a Stalinesque tyrant' are missing the point that we know that there was a viable alternative to, say, Stalinist Russia. In the 40k setting, there is no alternative to The Imperium, because without it and The Emperor daemons would eat everyone's brains. Which means you can't really look the morals involved the same way.
I tend to believe what 99% of the background setting puts out there in almost every case, in both 30k and 40k - that the Emperor is really on a mission to save humanity from being eaten by Chaos, and after 25,000 years of hanging around in the background he finally sees his chance to defeat Chaos once and for all, but doing so requires building an authoritarian empire to stop all the worshipping and psykering.
To answer the OP:
The Emperor doesn't punish Angron because, at the point he finds him, he really doesn't have the time. He took power from Chaos to create the Primarchs and he's in the middle of a ridiculously audacious plan to turn that power back against Chaos by using them and their Legions stop all Chaos-worshipping in the galaxy while HE goes back and creates a way of getting humanity into the web way. If he can do those two things, humanity is safe from Chaos.
But he knows that Chaos will realise and fight back and so he's chosen to do this just as the warp is reeling from the birth of Slaanesh. He knows he has maybe a couple of hundred years AT MOST to achieve this.
And then Chaos goes and sends Argel Til back in time and his perfect Imperial Generals get scattered all over the galaxy and he has to spend the first 100 years of that time finding them instead of building webway gates. Plus, they're all (obviously) now tainted by Chaos. Plus, they all now think of him as some sort of father and all have different expectations of what he's meant to be and do. The first few Primarchs he finds spend years on Terra being re-Imperialised, but by the time he gets to Angron he really doesn't have time for that. It's the same reason Lorgar's worship or Nikaea are dealt with so heavy-handedly - they're all silly little sideshows to the Emperor, who's trying to attempt something way, way more important on a ridiculous time limit!!
You know that is literally what Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirm (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader)? Its always been a fact the Emperor wants to save humanity as far back as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind just reintroduce it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 09:04:19
