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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I just re-read Tales of Heresy, and yeah. While Uriah Olathaire did know the Emperor means well (and the Emperor did not do anything bad in Tales of Heresy, aside from burning a Church), the Emperor brought up the Medieval Crusades as proof religion is evil. Really? He thinks something that happened before humanity discovered gunpowder is proof religion is evil?

I just want to know.


   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





Onething123456 wrote:
I just re-read Tales of Heresy, and yeah. While Uriah Olathaire did know the Emperor means well (and the Emperor did not do anything bad in Tales of Heresy, aside from burning a Church), the Emperor brought up the Medieval Crusades as proof religion is evil. Really? He thinks something that happened before humanity discovered gunpowder is proof religion is evil?

I just want to know.
You've already mentioned this a bunch of times, in a bunch of threads. Why does it need a new thread?

Also, you've said yourself that the Emperor said it. Is there anything that makes you think he was lying at the time, or are you asking for confirmation that the text says what it says?

If it helps, just imagine that the Emperor said that the crusades demonstrate the evils of religion.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
I just re-read Tales of Heresy, and yeah. While Uriah Olathaire did know the Emperor means well (and the Emperor did not do anything bad in Tales of Heresy, aside from burning a Church), the Emperor brought up the Medieval Crusades as proof religion is evil. Really? He thinks something that happened before humanity discovered gunpowder is proof religion is evil?

I just want to know.
You've already mentioned this a bunch of times, in a bunch of threads. Why does it need a new thread?

Also, you've said yourself that the Emperor said it. Is there anything that makes you think he was lying at the time, or are you asking for confirmation that the text says what it says?

If it helps, just imagine that the Emperor said that the crusades demonstrate the evils of religion.



I only said it once in another thread.
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

the Emperor brought up the Medieval Crusades as proof religion is evil. Really? He thinks something that happened before humanity discovered gunpowder is proof religion is evil?


Hint: its just another thinly veiled plot reference that human readers such as ourselves can relate to.
It means nothing in the greater scheme of things, much like most of black librarys references to old world.....(or their convoluted writing about the big E in general).

Please dont read that far into it

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So you're starting another new thread to ask about something already mentioned in another thread? Seems reasonable /s

Are you asking whether the Emperor thinks it? He said it, so either he thinks it's true or thinks it makes for a persuasive argument.

Or are you asking whether the Crusades are proof religion is evil?

Ratius is right, it's just another little reference for our benefit as it ties to our own history. If he believes what he says, it's also an interesting piece of hypocrisy given what the Emperor's Great Crusade later does (it's basically a mirror of the Crusades, just on a much larger scale).
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

Ok dude, I’ve gotta ask for everyone on this forum...what is your goal here? Like, what do you want to get out of this place? You dump a TON of quotes from books, act like you just want to push information on everyone here, but it all has to deal with the same topics every time. Fully half of the front page of the Background subsection is topics about the Emperor’s actions towards his children, his upbringing, or Perpetuals. And there is way too much interest in a joke character who isn’t meant to be too significant; “Old Person” the Perpetual. Like...we honestly don’t know what to make of these threads. It’s like you want to regurgitate random mini bits of text, talk about why you’re right (when nobody was questioning it), and just recircle the same drain. Why don’t you try looking at the rest of the forum, share some painting, maybe even convert and paint up a model of Oll Personn or w/e his name is. And we don’t care about what some Reddit guy says about the background stuff. A guy on Reddit isn’t “fact”, just because you like what he says. Just...be a part of the forum, don’t just spew random text out of old books. I’m sure if you ask, people will offer you constructive ways to add to the site. Right now, these threads only serve for popcorn munching and eye rolling at the same topics with modified titles going. Every poster on here (except spam bots) has something to offer. But random texts and 14 threads about Perpetuals isn’t it.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





Onething123456 wrote:

I only said it once in another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766408.page#10220799
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766125.page#10214638

At least two occasions, at least two threads. Plus you didn't actually respond to my point - why would we not accept Emp's statement in this context?

If you have a point, some reason to think he was lying - something that makes his statement seem false - that would be another matter entirely as this would allow us to have a debate. But all you said was essentially "Emp said A shows B. Does he think A shows B?"
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

I only said it once in another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766408.page#10220799
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766125.page#10214638

At least two occasions, at least two threads. Plus you didn't actually respond to my point - why would we not accept Emp's statement in this context?

If you have a point, some reason to think he was lying - something that makes his statement seem false - that would be another matter entirely as this would allow us to have a debate. But all you said was essentially "Emp said A shows B. Does he think A shows B?"



Those are literally the only times I talk about it here.

EDIT: its the other thread I meant to say was very recent. Error.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 16:08:44


 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






Unsurprising, but I'm still somewhat disappointed in you Onething. He immediately started PMing me his quote dumps and his weird viewpoint about Nazis the moment he was back from his temp ban. I told him to start a blog, and he asked how. I can only assume he gave up the moment he saw he wouldn't get the weird gratification he desires from trying to be the centre of attention.

Onething, you seriously don't see how you repeat the same goddamn topics over and over? Do you even know why you were temp banned? The worst part is that you don't even engage with the readers at all, you just use the thread to say the same statements ad nauseum as if it gets you off or something. You didn't even answer Aelyn's question. Please be considerate of others and stop spamming your threads.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Grimskul wrote:
Unsurprising, but I'm still somewhat disappointed in you Onething. He immediately started PMing me his quote dumps and his weird viewpoint about Nazis the moment he was back from his temp ban. I told him to start a blog, and he asked how. I can only assume he gave up the moment he saw he wouldn't get the weird gratification he desires from trying to be the centre of attention.

Onething, you seriously don't see how you repeat the same goddamn topics over and over? Do you even know why you were temp banned? The worst part is that you don't even engage with the readers at all, you just use the thread to say the same statements ad nauseum as if it gets you off or something. You didn't even answer Aelyn's question. Please be considerate of others and stop spamming your threads.


Alright. I was just curious, as I thought it was silly. Sorry.
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

I have to admit openly though, part of me loves these threads just to see where they go.....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 16:15:46


Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

I only said it once in another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766408.page#10220799
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766125.page#10214638

At least two occasions, at least two threads. Plus you didn't actually respond to my point - why would we not accept Emp's statement in this context?

If you have a point, some reason to think he was lying - something that makes his statement seem false - that would be another matter entirely as this would allow us to have a debate. But all you said was essentially "Emp said A shows B. Does he think A shows B?"


Alright. For your question, I do not think we should accept something from over 30,000 years ago as proof religion is evil. But maybe that is just me.


Hope I answered your question.
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Ratius wrote:
I have to admit openly though, part of me loves these threads just to see where they go.....


I dunno, after dozens of these threads, it gets pretty old real quick. Definitely doesn't compare to some of the more artsy trolls who bait rather than spam the same things over and over.
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





EDIT: Onething responded while I was typing - previous post removed.

Onething123456 wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

I only said it once in another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766408.page#10220799
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766125.page#10214638

At least two occasions, at least two threads. Plus you didn't actually respond to my point - why would we not accept Emp's statement in this context?

If you have a point, some reason to think he was lying - something that makes his statement seem false - that would be another matter entirely as this would allow us to have a debate. But all you said was essentially "Emp said A shows B. Does he think A shows B?"


Alright. For your question, I do not think we should accept something from over 30,000 years ago as proof religion is evil. But maybe that is just me.

Hope I answered your question.

Ah, now, this is a possible topic of conversation - was the Emperor right to think of the medieval crusades as proof religion is evil? It's not quite what you asked to begin with, but it is an interesting point.

Without wanting to cross into real-world religious debate, it's not exactly a watertight argument (and certainly doesn't prove anything one way or the other) but it is an effective demonstration of how religion can be twisted into a notionally-evil cause. I'm pretty sure it's intended as a sly tip of the hat towards the fact that in the 41st millennium, they're doing the exact same thing at a much larger scale - it's retroactive dramatic irony in a way that's only possible in prequels.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 16:26:24


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Aelyn wrote:
EDIT: Onething responded while I was typing - previous post removed.

Onething123456 wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

I only said it once in another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766408.page#10220799
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766125.page#10214638

At least two occasions, at least two threads. Plus you didn't actually respond to my point - why would we not accept Emp's statement in this context?

If you have a point, some reason to think he was lying - something that makes his statement seem false - that would be another matter entirely as this would allow us to have a debate. But all you said was essentially "Emp said A shows B. Does he think A shows B?"


Alright. For your question, I do not think we should accept something from over 30,000 years ago as proof religion is evil. But maybe that is just me.

Hope I answered your question.

Ah, now, this is a possible topic of conversation - was the Emperor right to think of the medieval crusades as proof religion is evil? It's not quite what you asked to begin with, but it is an interesting point.

Without wanting to cross into real-world religious debate, it's not exactly a watertight argument (and certainly doesn't prove anything one way or the other) but it is an effective demonstration of how religion can be twisted into a notionally-evil cause. I'm pretty sure it's intended as a sly tip of the hat towards the fact that in the 41st millennium, they're doing the exact same thing at a much larger scale - it's retroactive dramatic irony in a way that's only possible in prequels.



Alright. And the Emperor's plans are not up for debate. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) confirm the Emperor wants to save humanity. Its irrefutable.

And the point of 40k is that the "space-Nazis" (even though I have explained why the Imperium is neither fascist, nor misogynistic. But its still evil, I don't deny that) are right. They actually have justified reasons for hating aliens.


No, he was not. Its silly he brought up the medieval Crusades.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
And haven't atheist leaders like Stalin slaughtered more people than the Crusades?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 16:59:15


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




I wouldn't call their reasons justified. It's like saying a wolf bit me therefore my neighbours puppy needs shooting in the head with the Imperium.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't call their reasons justified. It's like saying a wolf bit me therefore my neighbours puppy needs shooting in the head with the Imperium.


More accurately, a wolf bit my great-great-great-great-graeat-great-grandpappy because he chased it with a stick, therefore all wolves need to be hunted down and shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething123456 wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
EDIT: Onething responded while I was typing - previous post removed.

Onething123456 wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

I only said it once in another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766408.page#10220799
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766125.page#10214638

At least two occasions, at least two threads. Plus you didn't actually respond to my point - why would we not accept Emp's statement in this context?

If you have a point, some reason to think he was lying - something that makes his statement seem false - that would be another matter entirely as this would allow us to have a debate. But all you said was essentially "Emp said A shows B. Does he think A shows B?"


Alright. For your question, I do not think we should accept something from over 30,000 years ago as proof religion is evil. But maybe that is just me.

Hope I answered your question.

Ah, now, this is a possible topic of conversation - was the Emperor right to think of the medieval crusades as proof religion is evil? It's not quite what you asked to begin with, but it is an interesting point.

Without wanting to cross into real-world religious debate, it's not exactly a watertight argument (and certainly doesn't prove anything one way or the other) but it is an effective demonstration of how religion can be twisted into a notionally-evil cause. I'm pretty sure it's intended as a sly tip of the hat towards the fact that in the 41st millennium, they're doing the exact same thing at a much larger scale - it's retroactive dramatic irony in a way that's only possible in prequels.



Alright. And the Emperor's plans are not up for debate. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) confirm the Emperor wants to save humanity. Its irrefutable.

And the point of 40k is that the "space-Nazis" (even though I have explained why the Imperium is neither fascist, nor misogynistic. But its still evil, I don't deny that) are right. They actually have justified reasons for hating aliens.


No, he was not. Its silly he brought up the medieval Crusades.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
And haven't atheist leaders like Stalin slaughtered more people than the Crusades?


Aaaand here we go with the fascist apologism. It took you less than a day to get there this time. Congrats.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 17:02:30


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't call their reasons justified. It's like saying a wolf bit me therefore my neighbours puppy needs shooting in the head with the Imperium.



Mamy aliens betrayed humanity during the Age of Strife. The Forgeworld books say there were alien slavers on Saturn and Jupiter enslaving humans. The Rangdan even destroyed many planets and a Legion. This is an irrefutable fact.

So its more like thousands of millions of wolves slaughtering humans, and people being paranoid and shooting.


And the Nephilim were seen as a minor race, and look at what they could do.

Its at least understandable why the Imperium hates aliens. This ain't Star Trek. This is Warhammer 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't call their reasons justified. It's like saying a wolf bit me therefore my neighbours puppy needs shooting in the head with the Imperium.


More accurately, a wolf bit my great-great-great-great-graeat-great-grandpappy because he chased it with a stick, therefore all wolves need to be hunted down and shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething123456 wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
EDIT: Onething responded while I was typing - previous post removed.

Onething123456 wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

I only said it once in another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766408.page#10220799
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766125.page#10214638

At least two occasions, at least two threads. Plus you didn't actually respond to my point - why would we not accept Emp's statement in this context?

If you have a point, some reason to think he was lying - something that makes his statement seem false - that would be another matter entirely as this would allow us to have a debate. But all you said was essentially "Emp said A shows B. Does he think A shows B?"


Alright. For your question, I do not think we should accept something from over 30,000 years ago as proof religion is evil. But maybe that is just me.

Hope I answered your question.

Ah, now, this is a possible topic of conversation - was the Emperor right to think of the medieval crusades as proof religion is evil? It's not quite what you asked to begin with, but it is an interesting point.

Without wanting to cross into real-world religious debate, it's not exactly a watertight argument (and certainly doesn't prove anything one way or the other) but it is an effective demonstration of how religion can be twisted into a notionally-evil cause. I'm pretty sure it's intended as a sly tip of the hat towards the fact that in the 41st millennium, they're doing the exact same thing at a much larger scale - it's retroactive dramatic irony in a way that's only possible in prequels.



Alright. And the Emperor's plans are not up for debate. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) confirm the Emperor wants to save humanity. Its irrefutable.

And the point of 40k is that the "space-Nazis" (even though I have explained why the Imperium is neither fascist, nor misogynistic. But its still evil, I don't deny that) are right. They actually have justified reasons for hating aliens.


No, he was not. Its silly he brought up the medieval Crusades.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
And haven't atheist leaders like Stalin slaughtered more people than the Crusades?


Aaaand here we go with the fascist apologism. It took you less than a day to get there this time. Congrats.



When have I ever been in favor of fascism? I explained why the Imperium is not fascist. Explaining why the Imperium is not fascist does not make me fascist myself.


The Imperium is not a place of misogynistic pigs that oppress women. Women have equal rights, can serve equally in the military, and can join the warrior Sororitas.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 17:07:50


 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





Onething123456 wrote:
Alright. And the Emperor's plans are not up for debate. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) confirm the Emperor wants to save humanity. Its irrefutable.

And the point of 40k is that the "space-Nazis" (even though I have explained why the Imperium is neither fascist, nor misogynistic. But its still evil, I don't deny that) are right. They actually have justified reasons for hating aliens.

No, he was not. Its silly he brought up the medieval Crusades.

Um, what do the Emperor's plans or motivation have to do with this thread? That's already being discussed in another thread, why suddenly bring it into this one?

And I don't know why you're taking this accusational tone. I never said anything about "space-nazis", and neither has anyone else in this thread. Nor have we discussed whether they're right to hate aliens. The Imperium still aggressively seeks out and destroys humans who don't follow the Imperial Creed, in a manner which mirrors the Crusades (just look at the Black Templars for an overt comparison) and that's what the book could be alluding to.

As for why he brought it up... what else could he bring up which the modern-day readers in the 21st century could relate to, without risking political hot water? You have to take into account the audience for the books as well as the in-universe characters.

EDIT: and can we keep real-world political discussion out of this as much as possible? It's never conducive to a well-reasoned discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 17:09:35


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Alright. And the Emperor's plans are not up for debate. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) confirm the Emperor wants to save humanity. Its irrefutable.

And the point of 40k is that the "space-Nazis" (even though I have explained why the Imperium is neither fascist, nor misogynistic. But its still evil, I don't deny that) are right. They actually have justified reasons for hating aliens.

No, he was not. Its silly he brought up the medieval Crusades.

Um, what do the Emperor's plans or motivation have to do with this thread? That's already being discussed in another thread, why suddenly bring it into this one?

And I don't know why you're taking this accusational tone. I never said anything about "space-nazis", and neither has anyone else in this thread. Nor have we discussed whether they're right to hate aliens. The Imperium still aggressively seeks out and destroys humans who don't follow the Imperial Creed, in a manner which mirrors the Crusades (just look at the Black Templars for an overt comparison) and that's what the book could be alluding to.

As for why he brought it up... what else could he bring up which the modern-day readers in the 21st century could relate to, without risking political hot water? You have to take into account the audience for the books as well as the in-universe characters.




Sorry. I got carried away.

I hope I answered your question.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Onething123456 wrote:
I just re-read Tales of Heresy, and yeah. While Uriah Olathaire did know the Emperor means well (and the Emperor did not do anything bad in Tales of Heresy, aside from burning a Church), the Emperor brought up the Medieval Crusades as proof religion is evil. Really? He thinks something that happened before humanity discovered gunpowder is proof religion is evil?

I just want to know.




It is a fairly established Lazy Scifi Trope that any time anything historical gets referenced in a scifi setting, it'll be something either from present day, or the past from the perspective of the present day. At best three examples will be mentioned and one will be fictional.

Commander Data: "He is compared with the greatest of human geniuses. Like Einstein. Da Vinci. Squarblax 4."

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Onething123456 wrote:


When have I ever been in favor of fascism?


Every single time you excuse, justify or otherwise attempt to handwave away genocide, authoritarianism and slavery (among other things) in the name of a greater good because "the Imperium had its reasons".
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Sterling191 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:


When have I ever been in favor of fascism?


Every single time you excuse, justify or otherwise attempt to handwave away genocide, authoritarianism and slavery (among other things) in the name of a greater good because "the Imperium had its reasons".



The Imperium has justified reasons. Bringing up real life despots does not mean crap in 40k where all of the threats are real and the "space-Nazis" are right. (if you say the Imperium cooks it up, then you are lying. And bringing Hitler in the same light as someone like Mao is assuming Hitler did not believe in his delusions, which he did. Even though we all know he was wrong, he believed in his delusional nonsense )


Have I ever said real-life fascism is right?

Why are you ignoring the Forgeworld books saying that there were alien slavers on the moons of Saturn and Jupiter, and that the Rangdan destroyed many planets and a Legion, and that the Imperium freed billions if not trillions from alien slavers.


And do you know many aliens betrayed humanity during the Age of Strife? It emotionally scared the Emperor. The Forgeworld books show there were a crapload of hostile aliens. Even the HH books show this.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 17:23:09


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Onething123456 wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
EDIT: Onething responded while I was typing - previous post removed.

Onething123456 wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

I only said it once in another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766408.page#10220799
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/766125.page#10214638

At least two occasions, at least two threads. Plus you didn't actually respond to my point - why would we not accept Emp's statement in this context?

If you have a point, some reason to think he was lying - something that makes his statement seem false - that would be another matter entirely as this would allow us to have a debate. But all you said was essentially "Emp said A shows B. Does he think A shows B?"


Alright. For your question, I do not think we should accept something from over 30,000 years ago as proof religion is evil. But maybe that is just me.

Hope I answered your question.

Ah, now, this is a possible topic of conversation - was the Emperor right to think of the medieval crusades as proof religion is evil? It's not quite what you asked to begin with, but it is an interesting point.

Without wanting to cross into real-world religious debate, it's not exactly a watertight argument (and certainly doesn't prove anything one way or the other) but it is an effective demonstration of how religion can be twisted into a notionally-evil cause. I'm pretty sure it's intended as a sly tip of the hat towards the fact that in the 41st millennium, they're doing the exact same thing at a much larger scale - it's retroactive dramatic irony in a way that's only possible in prequels.



Alright. And the Emperor's plans are not up for debate. Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (yes, the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) confirm the Emperor wants to save humanity. Its irrefutable.


Ah, I see we now have a new mantra for you to repeat ad nauseum. Knock it off. You seem to be under the impression truth is found in repetition rather than logic. It's not. Constantly repeating statements that are, at best, only tangentially related to the discussion is unhelpful and does not lead to any actual debate.


And the point of 40k is that the "space-Nazis" (even though I have explained why the Imperium is neither fascist, nor misogynistic. But its still evil, I don't deny that) are right. They actually have justified reasons for hating aliens.


No, he was not. Its silly he brought up the medieval Crusades.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And haven't atheist leaders like Stalin slaughtered more people than the Crusades?


Nobody mentioned Nazis or misogyny. Why are you brining them up? If you're going to have a debate at least discuss the things people are saying, not what you want them to have said. It's almost like you have a bunch of responses lined up ready to go and you just wheel them out regardless of the direction the discussion has taken.

As others have said, the Crusades are brought up so the reader understands the point the Emperor is trying to make. It's something from our history we can relate to. Yes, it makes no sense in-universe. Get over it. Also, comparing whether religion or atheism has slaughtered more people is spectacularly missing the point. Slaughtering people isn't a good thing. The reasons aren't really important, especially to the victims.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething123456 wrote:

And do you know many aliens betrayed humanity during the Age of Strife? It emotionally scared the Emperor. The Forgeworld books show there were a crapload of hostile aliens. Even the HH books show this.


That quote shows your fundamental lack of understanding of human history and the elements from our history the Imperium is based on. In any tyrannical regime there's always an "other" to fight, a great enemy to be eradicated and it's always taken as a universal truth that said enemy is beyond redemption and reason. If you can't grasp that there's not much point discussing things further.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 17:31:09


 
   
Made in us
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Norwalk, Connecticut

Actually, the main reason the Emperor was so against aliens was because he had a pet Megarachnid whom he named “Mr. Snuggles”. The Megarachnid couldn’t adapt to Terra’s atmosphere, and after months of agony, while the Emperor tried everything to save him, he died and had to get flushed. The Emperor was so overcome with remorse, that he felt every alien should be put to death immediately so it wouldn’t ever have to suffer the way Mr. Snuggles did. It’s all available to read in the audio short “Musings from the Golden Throne”. It’s pretty tough to track down these days, but it’s out there.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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Removed, please keep in mind that RULE #1 is NOT optional.

Also kindly refrain from quoting massive slabs of text.

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The point is all the threats in 40k are real. I know you are not saying the Imperium is lying about them, are you? Many aliens are always hostile, and many enslaved humans during the Age of Strife.


I hope you are not saying the Imperium is lying about the threats. This is Warhammer 40k, not real-life or Star Trek.



The point is, bringing up real despots (and saying it as though assuming Hitler did not believe in his delusional nonsense) has no merit in a place like 40k. The point of the setting is that the Imperium is justified in what they do. But then, so are other factions. The Eldar are justified in trying to stay alive, and for being arrogant towards humans. The Tau are justified because all though they treat other races below themselves, they think they are doing right. Chaos is justified because Chaos cannot do anything except act within its nature (and Chaos is more Lovecraftian than "evil".). The Tyanids are justified because they are just hungry. The orks are justified because they just love to fight and are not evil,

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 18:03:05


 
   
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It isn't all or nothing.

There are real threats, and the Imperium is ALSO lying about other things that aren't threats.
The setting material isn't even vaguely subtle about this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 18:42:54


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Voss wrote:
It isn't all or nothing.

There are real threats, and the Imperium is ALSO lying about other things that aren't threats.
The setting material isn't even vaguely subtle about this.



What is it lying about? Chaos? The Orks? The Tyranids? The Dark Eldar? And myriad other threats?


All of the threats are real.
   
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Excited Doom Diver





Onething123456 wrote:
Voss wrote:
It isn't all or nothing.

There are real threats, and the Imperium is ALSO lying about other things that aren't threats.
The setting material isn't even vaguely subtle about this.



What is it lying about? Chaos? The Orks? The Tyranids? The Dark Eldar? And myriad other threats?


All of the threats are real.

The T'au weren't until the Imperium attacked them. And aren't the Calibanite Watchers in the Dark a form of xenos?

Plus, by the nature of the medium, of course the armies in the war game are liable to wage war with each other. What about the non-hostile aliens that don't get talked about because they're not hostile?
   
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I think Tau are a nice faction in sense that they're example of all those minor species Imperium constantly casually annihilates. Tau allows to see that struggle from the xenos perspective and shows their attempts to fight back. There have been countess similar xeno empires which have lost that battle and are now extinct.

   
 
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