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I'm running a shooty Iron Hands army and trying to cut down a couple points just to add a couple smaller things to my units (missile launcher w Scouts, twin lascannons on razorback, etc) and was wondering if switching out my Pred w autocannon and rwin lascannon w storm bolter, about 180 pts, would be better with a Whirlwind w vengeance launcher and storm bolter? It saves about 80 pts and I feel like it puts more shots on the board.

 ironhand45 wrote:
I'm running a shooty Iron Hands army and trying to cut down a couple points just to add a couple smaller things to my units (missile launcher w Scouts, twin lascannons on razorback, etc) and was wondering if switching out my Pred w autocannon and rwin lascannon w storm bolter, about 180 pts, would be better with a Whirlwind w vengeance launcher and storm bolter? It saves about 80 pts and I feel like it puts more shots on the board.

I have had some great success with the whirlwinds lately with vengenace launchers. I don't put SB on them though. I play Space Wolves so I use them and some other stuff to draw people into my lines. It gives them a reason to come at me and I can then pounce more reliably with my TWC/whatever.

However... I take 3 of them. Just to make sure they're annoying enough to come for. Just like the Predator, you need more than one in my opinion.

I think Whirlwinds are awful. One of the worst Marine units available. They can expect to do 1.33 damage against a predator, or 1.78 against an intecessor. In either case, the thing could fire, unmolested, all game, and would most likely fail to make its points back against either target. The real kicker is its deviation; its chance of doing zero damage in either attack is very high - 49/38% respectively.

They are. Soup in wyverns instead.

If points are tight and your playing remotely competitive look at Astra Militarum units many of there vehicals are cheaper and just better than marine vehicals.

I run 2 whirlwinds and 3 preds in my space wolf army and they always do work. They are the perfect answer to a lot of problems. Preds almost kill a tank? Let the whirlwind finish it. Mortar teams being a pain? Let the whirlwinds kill them. Enemy on a back objective thats just sitting there getting them points? Not anymore.

But you need to take them in numbers, at least 2 if not 3. They fit well if you also take a basilisk or wyvern or 2 in the list as well.

Full artillery, level that mountain.....

I'd advise you to look at a manticore. Slightly more points to be terrifying to every unit in the game.

Look at a Forge world: Rapier Weapon: Quad launcher, 2x Marines= 85 pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
Looked at a Forge world: Rapier Weapon (20): Quad launcher (45), 2x Marines (20) = 85 pts

You could get multiple (and their 24" range weapon is great on top of out of longer range, out of sight shots, plus save points)

EDIT: I thought their cost was 100 now but i cant find an update so maybe I was mistaken
EDIT 2: I own 3, the model is resin but easy to assemble. I assembled them without a model on the back (think I use the 90mmx52mm base) they are great. Converted operators on separate bases
EDIT 3: Took out individual costs

Whirlwinds can be tough as long as they get rerolls to hit.

I play 3 Scorpius Whirlwinds in my Black Legion list sometimes. I park 3 of them around Abaddon to let them shoot twice.

Good way to delete heavy infantry. They compete with Laspreds in my lists. I consider the Whirlwinds the stronger option based on feedback from other players.

Scorpius are legit, those things mess marines and heavy infantry up really well. I can Imagine 3 putting in some serious work for you. Night and day with the standard anaemic whirlwind.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Whirlwinds can be tough as long as they get rerolls to hit.

I play 3 Scorpius Whirlwinds in my Black Legion list sometimes. I park 3 of them around Abaddon to let them shoot twice.

Good way to delete heavy infantry. They compete with Laspreds in my lists. I consider the Whirlwinds the stronger option based on feedback from other players.

Scorpius's are good but at 225 or something a pop they are expensive (idk about chaos but for imperium you need 1 norm heavy per scorpius).

To the OP:

The only problem is the pred serves a different role (anti-armour/heavy infantry) while the whirlwind is more just infantry.

EDIT: (was reading another thread about wolves...) Do you need more anti-armour or more anti- infantry?

 grouchoben wrote:
Scorpius are legit, those things mess marines and heavy infantry up really well. I can Imagine 3 putting in some serious work for you. Night and day with the standard anaemic whirlwind.

Hrm. I don't play Imperium. Sad to hear that, but Marines can still get a Scorpius, right?

I sometimes stick Abaddon and 3 Scorpius' in a corner behind a wall of Cultists and say come get me. Makes for a very fun game.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Hrm. I don't play Imperium. Sad to hear that, but Marines can still get a Scorpius, right?

They can, but the FW Relic rule requires a player to have a maximum of 50% of units in a given role (Elite, FA, Heavy Support etc) be non-Relic units. It means there's a steep tax to do it.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Scorpius are legit, those things mess marines and heavy infantry up really well. I can Imagine 3 putting in some serious work for you. Night and day with the standard anaemic whirlwind.

Hrm. I don't play Imperium. Sad to hear that, but Marines can still get a Scorpius, right?

I sometimes stick Abaddon and 3 Scorpius' in a corner behind a wall of Cultists and say come get me. Makes for a very fun game.

Predominately for Imperium you need to have 1 non relic choice per relic choice in that given field (eg for every 1 relic heavy support need 1 normal heavy support first etc)

If you can stick with the pred i would, WW's have been nothing but a disappointment for me in 8th

Well, you can hide the Whirlwind and do less damage. Or continue with the Predator and do a lot of damage if you ha e luck and also go first. I prefer the Predator, but that's my personal opinion.

You can also run a Helverin... this is getting out of hand though
Points per damage the predator is stronger.

I'm probably going to run with the Pred for now, my army is lacking in some anti armour, so it looks to be the best option. Thanks for everyone's input!

Drop the predator and get a twin LC razorback. Its cheaper than a twin LC pred, can do pretty much the same as a twin LC pred, and it can carry 6 infantry models.

I don't know about that. That pred also has its autocannon, that gun can do work against any target. Str 7 ap-1 d3 is strong, especially vs targets with invulnerable saves that the ap- doesnt matter much.

Sterling191 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Hrm. I don't play Imperium. Sad to hear that, but Marines can still get a Scorpius, right?

They can, but the FW Relic rule requires a player to have a maximum of 50% of units in a given role (Elite, FA, Heavy Support etc) be non-Relic units. It means there's a steep tax to do it.

I don't think CSM has the same Relic rule so it would obviously not apply here.

However that would mean looking for cheap Elites to fill the slot. The characters, if you were already taking them, would be an excellent way to avoid that task. Some people, like me, still like Vanguard with 2 chainswords which are cheap.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Hrm. I don't play Imperium. Sad to hear that, but Marines can still get a Scorpius, right?

They can, but the FW Relic rule requires a player to have a maximum of 50% of units in a given role (Elite, FA, Heavy Support etc) be non-Relic units. It means there's a steep tax to do it.

I don't think CSM has the same Relic rule so it would obviously not apply here.

However that would mean looking for cheap Elites to fill the slot. The characters, if you were already taking them, would be an excellent way to avoid that task. Some people, like me, still like Vanguard with 2 chainswords which are cheap.

My post above relates how the imperium rules works. If you meant chaos, idk how relates to the OP?


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 ironhand45 wrote:
I'm probably going to run with the Pred for now, my army is lacking in some anti armour, so it looks to be the best option. Thanks for everyone's input!

Prob best, WW are pretty crap, only thing I would think of is 2 rapiers (could get 1 laser destroyer and 1 quad launcher, for almost same) but then is neg. Espec if need AA.

 p5freak wrote:
Drop the predator and get a twin LC razorback. Its cheaper than a twin LC pred, can do pretty much the same as a twin LC pred, and it can carry 6 infantry models.

I already have one lasback, and that autocannon is too beneficial for my army to give up.

Just get an armiger helverine. Heck for the same $ cost you get 2 of them. You get twice the number of autocannon shots - more range - more mobility without giving up accuracy - better close combat ability - invo saves - and all for the cost of. LESS.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just get an armiger helverine. Heck for the same $ cost you get 2 of them. You get twice the number of autocannon shots - more range - more mobility without giving up accuracy - better close combat ability - invo saves - and all for the cost of. LESS.

I noticed this one the other day too. And it's not like you have to worry about missing out on chapter tactics since Predators dont get any. I swear, my Marine list is not going to have any Marines left in it. If the upcoming CA doesn't completely change points around I'm thinking maybe I'll get some Armigers and lie to myself that they're marine dreadnoughts.

bort wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just get an armiger helverine. Heck for the same $ cost you get 2 of them. You get twice the number of autocannon shots - more range - more mobility without giving up accuracy - better close combat ability - invo saves - and all for the cost of. LESS.

I noticed this one the other day too. And it's not like you have to worry about missing out on chapter tactics since Predators dont get any. I swear, my Marine list is not going to have any Marines left in it. If the upcoming CA doesn't completely change points around I'm thinking maybe I'll get some Armigers and lie to myself that they're marine dreadnoughts.

Heck if you have three of them you'll get your own Household too. So even IF Marine vehicles had Chapter Tactics...

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'd advise you to look at a manticore. Slightly more points to be terrifying to every unit in the game.

I just bought a Manticore because I like the model and it's not outright terrible - I don't see it being all that terrifying, though. Certainly not as much as it was back in 6th Edition when I last used one - D6 large blasts at S10 could do a lot of damage if you had a good target for it. Right now? Well, going with its average output, you get 7 shots, of which 3.5 hit. 7 wounds. Which against T6-T9 is 4.66 wounds. Then figure saves, which against vehicles for example will still be 5+ mostly, since it's AP -2. You end up with 3 wounds caused. And you can only fire four times, so it'd be 12 wounds to a single target assuming no degradation. In other words it could barely destroy another Manticore. A knight would laugh at it. It won't be easy to make its points back.

Because I like the model I may end up "foolishly" using CP rerolls for determining the number of shots, and at least sometimes have Yarrick to give rerolls to hit. The latter would certainly bring up its effective cost though, even if he would also boost some other vehicle(s).

Catachan for free shot-number rerolls, master of ordnance or harker for rerolls, and your numbers go way up. Now your manticore is putting out 4.6 damage a turn on a Russ or non-buffed knight, out of LoS. That's a fantastic return on 140pts: a battery of 3 for 420pts is dropping that knight to 11w in one turn.

It's below a qud-las predator with captain rerolls, @6 damage a turn, but it's cheaper, needs no LoS and its buff character is way cheaper (and has a nice 1-shot weapon itself, if master of ordnance.) Manticores are great.