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Made in ca
Focused Fire Warrior





So this is rather confusing to me but I'm going to use Black Knights for example. So, let's say I have a unit of Black Knights, 5 of them shoot on overcharge with their plasma talons. I roll exactly two rolls of 1. The rule states that "the bearer" is slain. However, out of my 10 shots, I haven't stated which dice are for which models. Since two shots are fired from each, I could easily state "both those 1s are from the same guy, ergo I only lose 1 guy."

Now, I know this sounds stupid and cheesy, but let's say there's a unit of tactical marines with 1 plasma gun. I'm in rapid fire range, so I roll two dice to hit. I roll two rolls of 1 to hit. Only the bearer of the plasma gun is slain, and no one else, despite the fact that I have rolled the same amount of ones as with the Black Knights unit. So, what do you guys think? Should units with multiple plasma weapons be forced to roll for each model individually, perhaps?

Personally, I hate the new plasma rules. I think instead of just outright killing you, anyone overcharging should suffer a wound with the same profile as the weapon fired. Either that or all plasma should have the same wording as the "heavy plasma cannon" on Dreadnoughts.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Nalydyn wrote:
So this is rather confusing to me but I'm going to use Black Knights for example. So, let's say I have a unit of Black Knights, 5 of them shoot on overcharge with their plasma talons. I roll exactly two rolls of 1. The rule states that "the bearer" is slain. However, out of my 10 shots, I haven't stated which dice are for which models. Since two shots are fired from each, I could easily state "both those 1s are from the same guy, ergo I only lose 1 guy."

Now, I know this sounds stupid and cheesy, but let's say there's a unit of tactical marines with 1 plasma gun. I'm in rapid fire range, so I roll two dice to hit. I roll two rolls of 1 to hit. Only the bearer of the plasma gun is slain, and no one else, despite the fact that I have rolled the same amount of ones as with the Black Knights unit. So, what do you guys think? Should units with multiple plasma weapons be forced to roll for each model individually, perhaps?

Personally, I hate the new plasma rules. I think instead of just outright killing you, anyone overcharging should suffer a wound with the same profile as the weapon fired. Either that or all plasma should have the same wording as the "heavy plasma cannon" on Dreadnoughts.
Well the problem is you're breaking the rules when you shoot with the Black Knights. While you can still fast roll them, you still need to specify which dice belong to what model. By not stating before rolling to hit what models are using which dice, you're intentionally not following the rules in order to gain an unfair benefit.

The reason they don't have the same Mortal Wound/Inflict a wound rule is because that might result in multiple wounded models in the unit, which breaks the game.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/11/10 15:25:54


 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

If you roll like that, you should just remove a model per rolled 1. If you want to avoid that, roll each models shots separately, if you roll two 1s for the same model it will only kill that model.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well the problem is you're breaking the rules when you shoot with the Black Knights. While you can still fast roll them, you still need to specify which dice belong to what model.


This is what the fast rolling dice rule says :


The rules for resolving
attacks have been written
assuming you will make
them one at a time.
However, it is possible to
speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar
attacks together. In order
to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit.


Shooting 5 overcharged plasma guns from a unit of black knights at another enemy unit fulfills all the requirements. Is it cheesy to roll all at once, and claim two rolled ones are from the same guy ? Yes, it is. Is it breaking any rule ? No, it doesnt.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
Shooting 5 overcharged plasma guns from a unit of black knights at another enemy unit fulfills all the requirements. Is it cheesy to roll all at once, and claim two rolled ones are from the same guy ? Yes, it is. Is it breaking any rule ? No, it doesnt.
Did you not read my post? I said you can fast roll with them. That doesn't mean you don't have to specify which dice belong to which model.
   
Made in ca
Focused Fire Warrior





The main thing is that, in a tournament, slowing the game down with individual rolls is a pain in the ass, since you only have limited time to finish the game. It's especially a problem if your opponent has say, orks, and their turns are very slow already, or if you're playing Imp Guard body-spam, for the same reason. If you both have large model counts, it gets even worse. I have to agree with you though, Catbug. I'll just have to roll 2 dice at a time and let my opponent gripe about my slow turns
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Nalydyn wrote:
The main thing is that, in a tournament, slowing the game down with individual rolls is a pain in the ass, since you only have limited time to finish the game. It's especially a problem if your opponent has say, orks, and their turns are very slow already, or if you're playing Imp Guard body-spam, for the same reason. If you both have large model counts, it gets even worse. I have to agree with you though, Catbug. I'll just have to roll 2 dice at a time and let my opponent gripe about my slow turns
Or have differently coloured dice and assign each colour to a specific model.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Nalydyn wrote:
The main thing is that, in a tournament, slowing the game down with individual rolls is a pain in the ass, since you only have limited time to finish the game. It's especially a problem if your opponent has say, orks, and their turns are very slow already, or if you're playing Imp Guard body-spam, for the same reason. If you both have large model counts, it gets even worse. I have to agree with you though, Catbug. I'll just have to roll 2 dice at a time and let my opponent gripe about my slow turns


Roll 5 dice. If any are 1 roll them separatelv

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






tneva82 wrote:
 Nalydyn wrote:
The main thing is that, in a tournament, slowing the game down with individual rolls is a pain in the ass, since you only have limited time to finish the game. It's especially a problem if your opponent has say, orks, and their turns are very slow already, or if you're playing Imp Guard body-spam, for the same reason. If you both have large model counts, it gets even worse. I have to agree with you though, Catbug. I'll just have to roll 2 dice at a time and let my opponent gripe about my slow turns


Roll 5 dice. If any are 1 roll them separatelv
You can't do that, because which model is slain will make a difference (for example, the lead dude might die and cause you to need a 9 to make the charge instead of 8).
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





It's technically allowed for you to fast roll. Unfortunately if you do you can end up in an unresolvable game state. Therefore don't fast roll.

If you forget and have already fast rolled, you'll need to randomly assign it. It is possible to get a mathematically identical result to rolling one by one still, it's just a bit of a pain.

In the example given with 5 models shooting twice each, let's say you roll 2 1s. The first 1 you randomly determine which of the 5 shooters it was. Say roll a d6 and re-roll if it's a 6. For the second 1 it's slightly trickier beacause there's now a 1 in 9 chance of it being the same shooter again, and a 2 in 9 chance of it being one of the others. If you don't have a d10 to hand you may need a random number generator for that!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You either need to have different colored dice for each shooter and tell your opponent beforehand which goes to which, or roll each shooter separately. There is really no other option without causing massive problems.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/10 20:12:55


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Or you can be a fair sport and when you fast roll any ones you then quickly number off the applicable models and roll a dice for each one to determine which model that roll belongs to. That model dies.

So when your 5 Black Knights roll 2 ones:
  • Number them 1 to 5
  • Roll 2 Dice, rerolling any 6s to get a non-6 result
  • Remove the models for the numbers you rolled. If both dice have the same result, you only remove that one model.
  • This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/11 16:32:59


     
       
    Made in gb
    Horrific Hive Tyrant





     alextroy wrote:
    Or you can be a fair sport and when you fast roll any ones you then quickly number off the applicable models and roll a dice for each one to determine which model that roll belongs to. That model dies.

    So when your 5 Black Knights roll 2 ones:
  • Number them 1 to 5
  • Roll 2 Dice, rerolling any 6s to get a non-6 result
  • Remove the models for the numbers you rolled. If both dice have the same result, you only remove that one model.


  • That's not mathematically the same. It gives a much higher chance of both shots going to the same model than slow rolling would have given. Which means it's favouring the shooter who rolled incorrectly in the first place.
       
    Made in ca
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    If people aren't capable of getting through 10 plasmas quickly, they need to learn to speed up. Roll all your hit dice two at a time, see if any overheat, then start rolling all wound rolls together afterwards. Should only take up to twice as long as rolling all together.

     Galef wrote:
    If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
     
       
    Made in us
    Confessor Of Sins





    Tacoma, WA, USA

     Stux wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
    Or you can be a fair sport and when you fast roll any ones you then quickly number off the applicable models and roll a dice for each one to determine which model that roll belongs to. That model dies.

    So when your 5 Black Knights roll 2 ones:
  • Number them 1 to 5
  • Roll 2 Dice, rerolling any 6s to get a non-6 result
  • Remove the models for the numbers you rolled. If both dice have the same result, you only remove that one model.


  • That's not mathematically the same. It gives a much higher chance of both shots going to the same model than slow rolling would have given. Which means it's favouring the shooter who rolled incorrectly in the first place.
    Really? How so?
       
    Made in gb
    Norn Queen






    Even if it was, you can't randomly determine them after the fact because positioning matters in 40k. If you don't allocate them before rolling, you've broken the rules.

    Since the game doesn't actually tell us how to resolve situations when people break the rules, it's up to the two players to use TMIR to work out a solution.
       
    Made in us
    Confessor Of Sins





    Tacoma, WA, USA

    Actually, this is a case of "breaking" the rules as determining the best way to resolve something the rules don't tell you how to handle.

    Remember, the rules explicitly allow you to Fast Roll these "Gets Hot" attacks and doesn't say one work on how to resolve the "the bearer is slain" rule.

    Remember, rolling different colored dice is no more in the rules than my random selection after rolling is.
       
    Made in gb
    Norn Queen






     alextroy wrote:
    Actually, this is a case of "breaking" the rules as determining the best way to resolve something the rules don't tell you how to handle.

    Remember, the rules explicitly allow you to Fast Roll these "Gets Hot" attacks and doesn't say one work on how to resolve the "the bearer is slain" rule.

    Remember, rolling different colored dice is no more in the rules than my random selection after rolling is.
    Just because you can fast roll them doesn't mean you still don't have to indicate which hit rolls belong to which model.
       
    Made in ca
    Longtime Dakkanaut





     alextroy wrote:
     Stux wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
    Or you can be a fair sport and when you fast roll any ones you then quickly number off the applicable models and roll a dice for each one to determine which model that roll belongs to. That model dies.

    So when your 5 Black Knights roll 2 ones:
  • Number them 1 to 5
  • Roll 2 Dice, rerolling any 6s to get a non-6 result
  • Remove the models for the numbers you rolled. If both dice have the same result, you only remove that one model.


  • That's not mathematically the same. It gives a much higher chance of both shots going to the same model than slow rolling would have given. Which means it's favouring the shooter who rolled incorrectly in the first place.
    Really? How so?


    It only would be an issue when overheat on rolls other than rolls of 1 come up, or when the number of overheats is greater than the number of shots per gun (and the number of shots per gun is greater than 1). It works in the common case given, because rolling two ones for one model is 1 in 36, and getting both the same number on 2d6 is 1 in 36, but that isn't always the case.

     Galef wrote:
    If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





    Cardiff

    I fear quite the mountain has been made out of this molehill.

    As others have said, roll hits in pairs or fast roll with different coloured dice per firing model.

    Don’t overthink this one, people.

     Stormonu wrote:
    For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
     
       
    Made in au
    [MOD]
    Making Stuff






    Under the couch

     alextroy wrote:
    Actually, this is a case of "breaking" the rules as determining the best way to resolve something the rules don't tell you how to handle.

    Remember, the rules explicitly allow you to Fast Roll these "Gets Hot" attacks and doesn't say one work on how to resolve the "the bearer is slain" rule.

    Remember, rolling different colored dice is no more in the rules than my random selection after rolling is.

    The rules don't need to tell you to keep the rolls separate when there is a need to know which dice belong to which model. It's pretty self-evident.

     
       
    Made in us
    Confessor Of Sins





    Tacoma, WA, USA

    The rules tell you exactly how to resolve a Fast Roll and don't make any exception for such a case nor require you to differentiate the dice when you do so. Therefore, this self-evident conclusion is not RAW.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't have an agreed upon way with your opponent to resolve this, but it is not required by the rules as written.
       
    Made in gb
    Norn Queen






     alextroy wrote:
    The rules tell you exactly how to resolve a Fast Roll and don't make any exception for such a case nor require you to differentiate the dice when you do so. Therefore, this self-evident conclusion is not RAW.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't have an agreed upon way with your opponent to resolve this, but it is not required by the rules as written.
    It's also not required by the rules as written for dice to be numbered 1 to 6 either. The game requires a certain level of English and logical comprehension to work, even I accept that.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/11 19:38:17


     
       
    Made in us
    Lieutenant General





    Florence, KY

     alextroy wrote:
    The rules tell you exactly how to resolve a Fast Roll and don't make any exception for such a case nor require you to differentiate the dice when you do so. Therefore, this self-evident conclusion is not RAW.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't have an agreed upon way with your opponent to resolve this, but it is not required by the rules as written.

    And what do the rules for the plasma weapon say?

    On a hit roll of 1, the bearer is slain after all of this weapon’s shots have been resolved.

    So why are you ignoring this rule in preference to the optional Fast Dice Rolling rule? When rules conflict you look for the answer which breaks no rules and forego using Fast Dice Rolling.

    'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
    cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
    defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

    - Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
    Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
     
       
    Made in de
    Witch Hunter in the Shadows



    Aachen

     alextroy wrote:
    The rules tell you exactly how to resolve a Fast Roll and don't make any exception for such a case nor require you to differentiate the dice when you do so. Therefore, this self-evident conclusion is not RAW.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't have an agreed upon way with your opponent to resolve this, but it is not required by the rules as written.

    There's a default way to do this, and it's "dont use Fast Dice Rolling" for the entire squad, use it per model instead.
    If you agree on a different method, that's fine - but this one's the default.
       
    Made in gb
    Horrific Hive Tyrant





     alextroy wrote:
     Stux wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
    Or you can be a fair sport and when you fast roll any ones you then quickly number off the applicable models and roll a dice for each one to determine which model that roll belongs to. That model dies.

    So when your 5 Black Knights roll 2 ones:
  • Number them 1 to 5
  • Roll 2 Dice, rerolling any 6s to get a non-6 result
  • Remove the models for the numbers you rolled. If both dice have the same result, you only remove that one model.


  • That's not mathematically the same. It gives a much higher chance of both shots going to the same model than slow rolling would have given. Which means it's favouring the shooter who rolled incorrectly in the first place.
    Really? How so?


    Because what you've done is say there can only be one 1 in each set of five dice, but that's not true. Both 1s can be in the first set, or both in the second set.

    The chance of the second 1 landing on the same model as the first is actually 1/9 not 1/5.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Given how easy this is to misunderstand though, I'll go with JohnnyHell's comment that we shouldn't overthink it and instead just not fast roll for the whole squad!

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/11 20:41:12


     
       
    Made in us
    Confessor Of Sins





    Tacoma, WA, USA

    @Stux I think you misunderstood me. Each of the dice give an individual result between 1 and 5, which is the model that dies. If the dice matched, then that model rolled both 1's.

    I did fail to mention that this method assumes all models rolled a equal number of dice and that you don't allow any specific model to get more results than attacks, but you get the point. Randomly determine which model rolled the one and take them off the board.

    That being said, different colored dice is the best way to resolve this issue.
       
    Made in au
    Been Around the Block




    I play Dark Angels with 10 Hellblasters and I always roll each model separately when overcharging because of a few interactions:
    - One of the models is the sergeant and has an extra attack
    - Model position (LOS, charges, unit coherency, distance to objectives, etc)
    - Being within 6" of my Ancient whose ability is based on distance to individual models.

    Even rolling 20 dice in pairs with full re-rolls to hit really doesn't take too long and has too many tactical implications to not roll the shots like this.

    I would much prefer my opponent to roll each model separately than cherry-picking which model dies.
       
    Made in us
    Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





    If you're playing Black Knights/Ravenwing you are not having slow turns, so roll them for both shots separately.
       
    Made in gb
    Horrific Hive Tyrant





     alextroy wrote:
    @Stux I think you misunderstood me. Each of the dice give an individual result between 1 and 5, which is the model that dies. If the dice matched, then that model rolled both 1's.

    I did fail to mention that this method assumes all models rolled a equal number of dice and that you don't allow any specific model to get more results than attacks, but you get the point. Randomly determine which model rolled the one and take them off the board.

    That being said, different colored dice is the best way to resolve this issue.


    No I understand you, but your method is still flawed. When you roll the second dice you have a 1/5 chance of it landing on the same model which took the first hit, which is incorrect.

    You need to weight the other four Black Knights as twice as likely to be selected as the one that already took a hit, thus it should be 1/9.

    This is because there are 10 possible shots for the 1s. After you've assigned one of them, there are now 9 possible shots left for the 1 to be assigned to.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/12 08:56:46


     
       
     
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