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Why can't High Elf troops take swords?

I'm not talking about Greatswords - and even if I were, I'm not talking about Swordmasters.

I loved the generic feel of WHFB. You can take State Troops with:
-Spear
-Spear & Shield
-Sword & Shield
-Halbred
-Handguns
-Crossbows

Dark Elves similarly have multiple options for weapons on their basic troops.

High Elf basic troops have Spear, Bow, and/or Shield.

I know the practical reason is because those are the models they made (despite Spearmen coming with swords as well). That said it's always bothered me.

I've always wished WHFB, or whatever may replace it, gave the stats for "basic troop" for each faction, then the upgrade points that unit would pay for all the "book weapons". That way, I could make my army *my* army. I get that, probably, a Halbred should cost more for a HE basic trooper than a State Troop basic trooper. But I do wish it had that variety.

IMO, the real problem was that hand weapon and shield provided too much of a bonus over spears. Fighting in two ranks was never a great ability on S3 models, although at least high elves were WS4/I4 and fought in three ranks. But making the best defensive troops hand weapon instead of spears was always dumb.

But yeah, I think the options were limited to what models were generally available.

Bharring wrote:


Dark Elves similarly have multiple options for weapons on their basic troops.

High Elf basic troops have Spear, Bow, and/or Shield.

I know the practical reason is because those are the models they made (despite Spearmen coming with swords as well). That said it's always bothered me.

I've always wished WHFB, or whatever may replace it, gave the stats for "basic troop" for each faction, then the upgrade points that unit would pay for all the "book weapons". That way, I could make my army *my* army. I get that, probably, a Halbred should cost more for a HE basic trooper than a State Troop basic trooper. But I do wish it had that variety.

There's probably a couple of reasons. Firstly if every army could choose the same weapons then some units will lose their flavour (e.g. they would be less 'traditional'). It can also unbalance an army if, for example a basic unit could take a weapon that made another elite unit redundant. High Elf spearmen were always there to hold the line rather than cause damage.
Secondly for earlier models the plastic sprues were less advanced so could pack less options on each one. I would imagine that if High Elves had got a new basic sprue then you would have seen more options
Thirdly, strictly speaking they do have swords they are just not allowed to use them until the spears are destroyed. All units have a basic hand weapon.
Finally I think it is only 8th edition that restricted the use to 'you must use the special weapon if you have it'. I believe in 7th and earlier editions you could always fight with a basic hand weapon if you wanted. I believe GW nerfed it because it was being exploited by some armies.

Every army has to have a style, High Elves go for ranked combat and firm discipline. Swords are weapons for individuals, spears for ranked troops.

There are White Lions who have the great axe, an individual fighters weapon.

Note though the Shadow Warriors are swordsmen, and highly skilled too. Some editions allowed sword and board for Shadow Warriors though it was not what they were there for..

I think it also had to do with the Elves all being specialist warriors. If you were going to be a sword warrior, you specialized in fighting with a sword. Which meant you took it to the extreme conclusion and went with a great sword.

Ignoring that, Spears are a "better" weapon for rank and file troops. Swords are expensive and require a large amount of valuable metal to make. A single sword has enough metal to make a dozen spear tips, and it requires specialized smithing to create. Even the most primitive and untrained smith can hammer out some spear tips. Swords also require higher quality metal, not just more of the same kind that you can use for spears or axes. If its not better quality steel or iron, it won't hold an edge properly. The spear also has a reach advantage and gives its wielder a lot of fighting options. Even nobility often specialized in fighting with Spears. The Yari was a very important weapon to Samurai for example, and the most common weapon he fought with.

Even Empire Swordsmen aren't actually the rank and file for the Empire. They are actually elite veteran troops. Thats why they are WS4.

 Whirlwind wrote:

Bharring wrote:


Dark Elves similarly have multiple options for weapons on their basic troops.

High Elf basic troops have Spear, Bow, and/or Shield.

I know the practical reason is because those are the models they made (despite Spearmen coming with swords as well). That said it's always bothered me.

I've always wished WHFB, or whatever may replace it, gave the stats for "basic troop" for each faction, then the upgrade points that unit would pay for all the "book weapons". That way, I could make my army *my* army. I get that, probably, a Halbred should cost more for a HE basic trooper than a State Troop basic trooper. But I do wish it had that variety.

There's probably a couple of reasons. Firstly if every army could choose the same weapons then some units will lose their flavour (e.g. they would be less 'traditional'). It can also unbalance an army if, for example a basic unit could take a weapon that made another elite unit redundant. High Elf spearmen were always there to hold the line rather than cause damage.

Except when you run shadows and get mindrazor off.

I think maybe if Fantasy had been allowed to live, and the high elf core redone we might have seen a sword version of the spearmen just like the Dark elves. But we’ll never know.

 Whirlwind wrote:

Bharring wrote:


Dark Elves similarly have multiple options for weapons on their basic troops.

High Elf basic troops have Spear, Bow, and/or Shield.

I know the practical reason is because those are the models they made (despite Spearmen coming with swords as well). That said it's always bothered me.

I've always wished WHFB, or whatever may replace it, gave the stats for "basic troop" for each faction, then the upgrade points that unit would pay for all the "book weapons". That way, I could make my army *my* army. I get that, probably, a Halbred should cost more for a HE basic trooper than a State Troop basic trooper. But I do wish it had that variety.

There's probably a couple of reasons. Firstly if every army could choose the same weapons then some units will lose their flavour (e.g. they would be less 'traditional'). It can also unbalance an army if, for example a basic unit could take a weapon that made another elite unit redundant. High Elf spearmen were always there to hold the line rather than cause damage.
Secondly for earlier models the plastic sprues were less advanced so could pack less options on each one. I would imagine that if High Elves had got a new basic sprue then you would have seen more options
Thirdly, strictly speaking they do have swords they are just not allowed to use them until the spears are destroyed. All units have a basic hand weapon.
Finally I think it is only 8th edition that restricted the use to 'you must use the special weapon if you have it'. I believe in 7th and earlier editions you could always fight with a basic hand weapon if you wanted. I believe GW nerfed it because it was being exploited by some armies.

In 6th you could always opt to use the hand weapon instead, it just made little sense to do that given the Citizen Levy rule. Now, had they still been able to run heavy armor? I'd take that option almost every time.

In older editions you could choose which weapon to use before the first round in each combat.
Since all models were armed with a hand weapon (aka sword) by default, it was perfectly possible for spearmen to fight with swords instead if this benefited them.

Unfortunately, 8th edition took away this option but it's easy to houserule it back in.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I think maybe if Fantasy had been allowed to live, and the high elf core redone we might have seen a sword version of the spearmen just like the Dark elves. But we’ll never know.

I actually do not think so. Sword and board doesnt fit the aesthetic as well as spear armed troops. For pretty much the same reason as Grey Templar.

I kind of wanted to see either a double hand weapon High Elf unit, or a Halberdier unit that was not Phoenix Guard. I would picture the Halberdiers as either a shrine guard,(Guards of Vaul) or some kind of elite unit like a Guard Unit for Princes. The idea of a Sword and Shield does appeal to me as well, but not as much. Technically that is basically "Ships Company" from the HE list from SOC if I am not mistaken.

Dual wield doesnt fit the Asur , its a 'light' combat style and thus more Asrai and a 'all in attack' combat style which is very Druchii.

An option for Shadow Warriors perhaps.

Every army has to have a style, High Elves go for ranked combat and firm discipline. Swords are weapons for individuals, spears for ranked troops.

Roman Legions say hi

Otherwise I agree,

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I think maybe if Fantasy had been allowed to live, and the high elf core redone we might have seen a sword version of the spearmen just like the Dark elves. But we’ll never know.

The only reason Dark Elves received a sword option when their kit got redone was because way back in the day, Dark Elf City Guard(defensive city militias used in emergencies) existed with sword and board. The actual Dark Elf military used spears and Repeater Crossbows.

The first plastic dark elf kits were warriors with swords.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I think maybe if Fantasy had been allowed to live, and the high elf core redone we might have seen a sword version of the spearmen just like the Dark elves. But we’ll never know.

I actually do not think so. Sword and board doesnt fit the aesthetic as well as spear armed troops. For pretty much the same reason as Grey Templar.

The 4th edition Warhammer Armies High Elves did allow Elven warriors with hand weapons and shields (as a legacy option for those with units from 3rd edition so equipped*). That option disappeared in the revised 5th edition book, so I doubt it would ever make a return.

* as seen here:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991b/cat1991bp200highelves-00.htm

IIRC those are actually repurposed Melibonéans from the Elric range, once Citadel no longer had that licence.

I wouldn't count any edition before 5th, as early warhammer was very open and you could take pretty much anything, and even in 5th where some structure was introduced monsters were pick and mix.