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How do?

So today I was lucky enough to take delivery of my Slaves to Darkness re-print, sourced through my Loot Group (see my sig, shameless plug is shameless. Don’t miss out, don’t get ripped off. Death to Scalpers!)

And as I snuck off to the pub for a couple of pints and a read, I realised that in the grand scheme of things, Chaos has ceased to be, well, chaotic. Note the lower case c.

In Slaves to Darkness, instead of a formal army, you instead had Warbands anchored by a Leader of some kind, and sometimes just a lone Champion. Of course, back in those days armies were tiny by comparison, so it was easier to organise a Champ and a small set of Goons.

But we also saw this in 4th/5th Ed Warhammer, with the Realm of Chaos box (actually, might’ve been 6th Ed?). There, to form an army you chose your Champion first. Go crazy. Spend lots of points on him. But. You need to also purchase a Warband of at least equal points for them to lead. Other than that, it was pretty free form.

And looking at the modern Detachments, and particularly the Dark Eldar spin, I think we need a Chaos Codex that reflects that. Not Traitor Legionnaries as such. But just general ‘dregs of the galaxy’. The sort of marauding Chaos worshippers that are, on their own, more a persistent nuisance than an outright threat, but if left alone will still plunge a given world into utter anarchy. And when working in concert (or competition), can easily bleed a defence force white, helping to distract a modicum of the Imperial War Machine away from the wider conflict. The death by a thousand cuts approach, rather than the decapatation.

I envisage it as a mix of Traitor/Renegade Marines, Cultists, Beastmen and assorted mutants and scum. Think somewhere between CSM and Genestealer Cults, with the organisation of a Dark Eldar army. Multiple small Detachments, each bringing its own flavour. Really show off how insidious Chaos is. Because right now, it’s all become a bit In Yer Face, Subtle A Brick Through Your Window.

Heck, even throw in further ab-humans. Bring back Trolls and Minotaurs as carefully bred species, or ones deliberately twisted through warpcraft. Give us an anarchic Chaos army to choose. Really get down to the bare bones of just what makes Chaos such a threat.

Are you trolling GK players, or serious?

I’m serious.

Really not sure how this comes across as trolling Grey Knight players? I’m advocating a further Chaos Army in the game, not a replacement?

I don't know, they haven't finished nerfing everything in the current codex. They could at least strip chapter/legion traits from a few more units. They could re-work the faction keywords to prevent Daemon and CSM detachments from existing in the same army. I think they still have a lot of good nerf mileage left in the current codex.

Also, they've already signalled how the plan to address all such issues going forward. Sub-faction codices and specialist detachments. This allows them to sell us new models without actually fixing any rules.

I would love to see a 'Codex: Slaves to Darkness'.

Cultists, Beastmen, Mutants, Renegade IG, Spawn. All the gribblies. We already have a fantastic start in the BSF and Rogue Trader boxes - just keep going along those lines with stuff for all the gods (and unaligned, of course). Give them mortal, Daemon and CSM characters to lead them. In fact, I'd love to see characters that specifically work across all of the Chaos armies, encouraging a truly chaotic mixed horde.

I know we have the R&H list from Forgeworld, but since they've discontinued that model line I sincerely doubt they'll be getting an update any time soon.

Hell, even remove cultists from the CSM codex. Give them the same treatment GW gave Daemons back in 4th edition and put them in their own book.

Regarding Renegade Marines, they really should've been handled in the Vanilla codex via switching around of certain keywords.

Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

Wayniac wrote:
Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together.

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

Yes please!

 Cheexsta wrote:
...Beastmen...

Heresy! Homo sapiens variatus are a loyal, sanctioned abhuman strain.Those that turn from The Emperor's light are swiftly dealt with, so there would be none to join the forces of chaos.

Would be great if we got a 'Renegades and Heretics' Codex or a 'Heretics and Mutants' Codex of some kind. Then we could leave the Chaos Marines to be Marines instead of a Lord and Cultist Spam.

Wayniac wrote:
Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

I started writing this post after reading the OP, then saw that you'd made it already.

I really like the old Lost and the Damned squad setup of a chaos marine champion as the squad leader, and then various cultists, mutants, and other chaff as the rest of the squad. And the 3.5 dex was the style of Legion codex that pretty much everyone has wanted ever since, but they just refuse to make again.

This is a good idea. All for it.

Wayniac wrote:Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

Five. Add Dark Mechanicus.

*sploosh*

Bharring wrote:
Are you trolling GK players, or serious?

I don't get how it would be trolling lol, other codices could use new ones.

You can technically do this right now, it's just that your army would not be battleforged.

 techsoldaten wrote:
You can technically do this right now, it's just that your army would not be battleforged.

Technically, you can do this now and it would still be Battle-forged, so long as you keep everything in their own detachments. It just wouldn't be Matched Play.

Death Guard and Thousand Sons are decent. Would chaos then be better if they added World Eaters and Emperors Children, with the final one being plain jane Black Legion who represents the other "minor" legions?

Bharring wrote:
Are you trolling GK players, or serious?

IOW "You're not allowed to complain because there's starving kids in Africa."

It works both ways. When GK get a kickass codex you're not allowed to sing it's praises and get excited about it as another codex might have it better.

In an ideal world not filled with Marine Dexes I would have liked 5 Chaos Codexes

One for each Power and one Undivded/Dark Mechanicum.

Fluffy and covering lots of different things in each one - so a "Chaos Power" dex would have renegade Chaos Marines, former Legion, cultists and Daemons of their own power.

 Smirrors wrote:
Death Guard and Thousand Sons are decent. Would chaos then be better if they added World Eaters and Emperors Children, with the final one being plain jane Black Legion who represents the other "minor" legions?

The 3.5 Codex contained rules for all 9 Legions. However, they were somewhat lopsided. Word Bearer Daemon Spam, and Iron Warriors both stick in the mind as 'popular for a reason' - and I say that as someone that played Iron Warriors during that Codex! However, the upside was Cult Terminators etc.

It had loads of options, not all of which saw the light of day.

But I reckon it could be compiled into a single Mega-Dex. if push came to shove. But I still prefer a 'Vanilla' Codex, and then God Specialist Codecies. As long as we get a more pleb level of Chaos. After all, it's not the Legionnaires that are the true threat, but planetbound Cultists chucking spanners in the works.

I think any plan that involves GW selling fewer books is doomed to be dismissed as wishlisting forever, so as much as I'd love one, giant book to replace the eight* I currently have to refer to when my army takes the field, I don't see it happening.

If rules representation expands, so will the number of books.

* Codex: Heretic Astartes, C: Daemons, Index: Chaos, I; Forces of Chaos, I; Renegade Knights, I; Forces of the Astra Militarum, C: Astra Militarum and Chapter Approved.

Lost and the Damned, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Mechanicus and Daemons. That's all that's needed, everything can fit in one of those categories.

Also, while Lost and the damned teams with cultists and CSM sergeants can be cool, leave room for pure mortal chaos humans, that's always the most fun.

I don't think the powers need each individual codices, they can be represented in their own codices, like CSM with marks!

Please give us marks that do things back GW, Please

In all honesty, the 3.5 chaos codex was probably the best codex GW has ever produced. It was a near-perfect mix of flavor and style. Each of the traitor legions felt unique. There were abusive things (WB Daemon spam and IW's 9 obliterators Bassy+Vindy) but overall that book should be held up as the gold standard for codex design.

I think that there should logically be codexes for each of the Big 4 cults, since they can and should be completely distinct from the rest with their own unique advancements. The other legions and renegades could be in one book, but Lost & the Damned should be a separate book to allow traitor guard and tanks and all the mutants and other deplorables.

I tend to agree that Legion Codexes for the 'big Four' aren't necessary, but we're already halfway down that path.

Wayniac wrote:
In all honesty, the 3.5 chaos codex was probably the best codex GW has ever produced. It was a near-perfect mix of flavor and style. Each of the traitor legions felt unique. There were abusive things (WB Daemon spam and IW's 9 obliterators Bassy+Vindy) but overall that book should be held up as the gold standard for codex design.

I think that there should logically be codexes for each of the Big 4 cults, since they can and should be completely distinct from the rest with their own unique advancements. The other legions and renegades could be in one book, but Lost & the Damned should be a separate book to allow traitor guard and tanks and all the mutants and other deplorables.

I think 7th editions Legion supplement was the best attempt, although that really bad imbalance with Death Guard stuck out like a sore thumb.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
In all honesty, the 3.5 chaos codex was probably the best codex GW has ever produced. It was a near-perfect mix of flavor and style. Each of the traitor legions felt unique. There were abusive things (WB Daemon spam and IW's 9 obliterators Bassy+Vindy) but overall that book should be held up as the gold standard for codex design.

I think that there should logically be codexes for each of the Big 4 cults, since they can and should be completely distinct from the rest with their own unique advancements. The other legions and renegades could be in one book, but Lost & the Damned should be a separate book to allow traitor guard and tanks and all the mutants and other deplorables.

I think 7th editions Legion supplement was the best attempt, although that really bad imbalance with Death Guard stuck out like a sore thumb.

I forgot about Traitor Legions, that was pretty good too other than nonsense like Death Guard bikers being T6. Although I think 3.5 captured the essence more due to having veteran abilities.

Wayniac wrote:
Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

Yes! Yes! The game needs more books with 4 unit entries!!!

Pancakey wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

Yes! Yes! The game needs more books with 4 unit entries!!!

Er all of those would have more actual unique options than any snowflake marine dex.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Wayniac wrote:Chaos should really be like 4 codexes:

1) Traitor Legions: Legion-specific things for each of the original 9 Traitor Legions. Hell just bring back the 3.5 book it was almost perfect for representing true Veterans of the Long War. The entire army is highly elite and can be specialized with echoes of the 30k line.

2) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter): Closer to the way Chaos is now, with a few pieces of loyalist Space Marine equipment (e.g. Razorbacks, Whirlwinds). Basically bits and pieces of CSM + SM together. Imagine something like being able to take CSM squads with Centurions instead of Obliterators, being able to take a Whirlwind, being able to take Sternguard/Vanguard as "Veterans".

3) Lost and the Damned: Cults, Renegade Guard, Mutants, Beastmen, etc. All the mortal, non-Space Marine stuff.

4) Daemons: Self-explanatory.

Five. Add Dark Mechanicus.

*sploosh*

Meh they do technicallly fall under alot of these named codexes. (Cough iron warriors aswell lost and the damned cough)
i'd rather see them integrated as an insane HQ with his slave bunch and kill servitors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes! Yes! The game needs more books with 4 unit entries!!!

Oh look, someone that has neither read any CSM legion lore nor ever seen a R&H codex, i reccomend you IA13, a really interesting book.

Minotaurs in 40k with miniguns... Minigunotaurs.