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So I finally put together my post ca 2018 Necron list and it came in at a whopping 117 PL, that compares to 101 PL for my first list of 7th ed. Remember the exchange rate for PL to points is 20 to 1, so effectively I'm bringing 320 points more now than I did at the start of 8th ed. 8th ed has always been slower than 7th ed, and while the points adjustments are necessary, it seems to be exacerbating the issue of how long games take. I was at a GT this weekend with 3 hour rounds, and about a third of the tables still couldn't make it to round six in that time. If it were a standard 2 hour round I'm sure 2/3 of the tables wouldn't have made it to turn six, and a significant fraction wouldn't have made it to round 4. I mentioned it before, but if 2 hour rounds are to be preserved, we may have to drop the tournament standard points. At this point just dropping it to 1750, would bring us into line with a 2000 point army at the start of the edition, which still consistently struggled to get in under the two hour window.

It would be nice, but nobody here will listen to you. This forum is so completely stuck on 2000 point armies, you are just farting into the wind. I am and always will be an advocate of lowering the "normal" point values across the entire playerbase, but the ITC mission junkies, who are also some of the worst try hard asshats I've ever played against, will fight to the death to not play anything under 2k. Nobody will probably believe this, but at my local club, we have actually grown in player-size by having 1500 and 1750 tournaments, and even the 1250 stuff is super fun. Leads to more diverse army lists, and not the same crap spammed everywhere constantly. You'd be surprised how terrible people who only play 2k points are when they have to play lower point values.

8th takes longer for you to play than 7th?

That's a very different experience than I've had. Also, many of my armies (particularly horde armies like orks and guard) bring much smaller amounts of models in them than before due to the higher cost of transports.

People play PL? You can't directly compare PL to points as PL don't include wargear. 20 points per PL is VERY rough estimation, not an exact science. Also, I have yet to meet any play group or single person that even plays with PL. It takes 2 mins to make a proper army list in Battlescribe which is a free app.

 Grimgold wrote:
So I finally put together my post ca 2018 Necron list and it came in at a whopping 117 PL, that compares to 101 PL for my first list of 7th ed. Remember the exchange rate for PL to points is 20 to 1, so effectively I'm bringing 320 points more now than I did at the start of 8th ed. 8th ed has always been slower than 7th ed, and while the points adjustments are necessary, it seems to be exacerbating the issue of how long games take. I was at a GT this weekend with 3 hour rounds, and about a third of the tables still couldn't make it to round six in that time. If it were a standard 2 hour round I'm sure 2/3 of the tables wouldn't have made it to turn six, and a significant fraction wouldn't have made it to round 4. I mentioned it before, but if 2 hour rounds are to be preserved, we may have to drop the tournament standard points. At this point just dropping it to 1750, would bring us into line with a 2000 point army at the start of the edition, which still consistently struggled to get in under the two hour window.

Tournament play should be at 1500 points. It solves so many problems, limits armies to having to choose their toys rather than just getting to bring all the toys, and provides a quicker set up time. I've played many 1500 point games and I find them to be immensely enjoyable.


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 Toofast wrote:
People play PL? You can't directly compare PL to points as PL don't include wargear. 20 points per PL is VERY rough estimation, not an exact science. Also, I have yet to meet any play group or single person that even plays with PL. It takes 2 mins to make a proper army list in Battlescribe which is a free app.

I've used power level a lot in friendly games, it makes for a really fun and easy set up.


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Vakruz wrote:
It would be nice, but nobody here will listen to you. This forum is so completely stuck on 2000 point armies, you are just farting into the wind. I am and always will be an advocate of lowering the "normal" point values across the entire playerbase, but the ITC mission junkies, who are also some of the worst try hard asshats I've ever played against, will fight to the death to not play anything under 2k. Nobody will probably believe this, but at my local club, we have actually grown in player-size by having 1500 and 1750 tournaments, and even the 1250 stuff is super fun. Leads to more diverse army lists, and not the same crap spammed everywhere constantly. You'd be surprised how terrible people who only play 2k points are when they have to play lower point values.

You said it. The resistance is from the power gaming community, they get really mad when you limit how many over powered units they can bring to a game.

Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

Vakruz wrote:
the ITC mission junkies, who are also some of the worst try hard asshats I've ever played against,

LOL. Tell us how you really feel

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Vakruz wrote:
the ITC mission junkies, who are also some of the worst try hard asshats I've ever played against,

LOL. Tell us how you really feel

I know lol, it just sucks because people who do that i have personally seen drive people away from playing all together and hurts local shops, which in turn doesnt help anyone

I remember when the standard was 1500 pts in 3E. That's like 1000 pts in 8E.

Vakruz wrote:
Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

It's because I've been blasted to hell and back for suggesting the same thing. I've been to two LVO's now and I can tell you from first hand experience, all of the headaches stem from tournaments running games at too high of available points. 1500 IS perfect for competitive play, it forces players to pick and choose which models they bring, makes setup and take-down time much easier, prevents slow play for horde based armies, and causes players to think about the choices they make, the command points they will spend, etc. It would solve so many problems with the tournament scene, but because the minority have the loudest voices and refuse to even try something different, it won't change.

Vakruz wrote:
Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

You definitely came out swinging at other people for THEIR theoretical opinions, though, didn't you? Especially when in a thread agreeing with your opinion, with nobody having commented with the opposite opinion...

It's not perfect when you play elite armies. 1,500 is going to heavily skew towards favoring cheaper armies that get to keep their toys. Custodes, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, you just smacked all of them hard.

So yeah, lowering points is absolutely a terrible idea. You're not seeing a BETTER meta, just a DIFFERENT one (that you happen to like more).

That said, I didn't hear any stories of NOVA having any time issues at all. No ITC tournament I've been to since the introduction of chess clocks has had a real problem either. I'm personally on a 10 game streak or so for finishing on time or with time to spare.


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the_scotsman wrote:

Vakruz wrote:
Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

You definitely came out swinging at other people for THEIR theoretical opinions, though, didn't you? Especially when in a thread agreeing with your opinion, with nobody having commented with the opposite opinion...

Audustum wrote:
It's not perfect when you play elite armies. 1,500 is going to heavily skew towards favoring cheaper armies that get to keep their toys. Custodes, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, you just smacked all of them hard.

So yeah, lowering points is absolutely a terrible idea. You're not seeing a BETTER meta, just a DIFFERENT one (that you happen to like more).

That said, I didn't hear any stories of NOVA having any time issues at all. No ITC tournament I've been to since the introduction of chess clocks has had a real problem either. I'm personally on a 10 game streak or so for finishing on time or with time to spare.


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the_scotsman wrote:

Vakruz wrote:
Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

You definitely came out swinging at other people for THEIR theoretical opinions, though, didn't you? Especially when in a thread agreeing with your opinion, with nobody having commented with the opposite opinion...

Here they come Vakruz! Right on time!

 Togusa wrote:

Audustum wrote:
It's not perfect when you play elite armies. 1,500 is going to heavily skew towards favoring cheaper armies that get to keep their toys. Custodes, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, you just smacked all of them hard.

So yeah, lowering points is absolutely a terrible idea. You're not seeing a BETTER meta, just a DIFFERENT one (that you happen to like more).

That said, I didn't hear any stories of NOVA having any time issues at all. No ITC tournament I've been to since the introduction of chess clocks has had a real problem either. I'm personally on a 10 game streak or so for finishing on time or with time to spare.


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the_scotsman wrote:

Vakruz wrote:
Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

You definitely came out swinging at other people for THEIR theoretical opinions, though, didn't you? Especially when in a thread agreeing with your opinion, with nobody having commented with the opposite opinion...

Here they come Vakruz! Right on time!

Right, because discussing your opinion on the merits (it screws elite armies) is the same as "blasting" your opinion.

1750 is pretty much the standard now in my local area, following gw's example. Much prefer the lower amount... Although I've concerns about the new pts essentially negating the rationale for dropping to 1750.

2000 is the standard because everything is made of paper and carries tactical nukes compared to previous editions. Games barely last 3 full rounds anymore.

Audustum wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Audustum wrote:
It's not perfect when you play elite armies. 1,500 is going to heavily skew towards favoring cheaper armies that get to keep their toys. Custodes, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, you just smacked all of them hard.

So yeah, lowering points is absolutely a terrible idea. You're not seeing a BETTER meta, just a DIFFERENT one (that you happen to like more).

That said, I didn't hear any stories of NOVA having any time issues at all. No ITC tournament I've been to since the introduction of chess clocks has had a real problem either. I'm personally on a 10 game streak or so for finishing on time or with time to spare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Vakruz wrote:
Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

You definitely came out swinging at other people for THEIR theoretical opinions, though, didn't you? Especially when in a thread agreeing with your opinion, with nobody having commented with the opposite opinion...

Here they come Vakruz! Right on time!

Right, because discussing your opinion on the merits (it screws elite armies) is the same as "blasting" your opinion.

I commonly play full primaris at 1500 with zero issues in local tournaments. I think you're over exaggerating it. It's harder, but that's the challenge. Elite armies still have the disadvantage in this edition no matter what points cost the game is set at due to the favor of hordes in 8th, so it doesn't really make that much of a difference.


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 lare2 wrote:
1750 is pretty much the standard now in my local area, following gw's example. Much prefer the lower amount... Although I've concerns about the new pts essentially negating the rationale for dropping to 1750.

I'd be alright with 1750, it's a good compromise between the 1500 and 2K communities.

As for the new points, my 2K Tyranid list is now a whopping 1648 points. I don't agree with the points drops they gave to bugs, they're way too high.

3 hour rounds make it easy to get to turn 5 & 6 if you have clocks on the tables. People stop wasting time on things like "i have a 6 up feel no pain, and i took 3 damage, 12 times, so let me roll 3d6 12 times on the hope that i get that 1/216 chance to save a model" because it burns THEIR time.

1750 is the sweet spot for me. CA has just made that even more so. At 2000 I feel players can just take too many heavy hitting units and therefore first turn is too important

 Togusa wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Audustum wrote:
It's not perfect when you play elite armies. 1,500 is going to heavily skew towards favoring cheaper armies that get to keep their toys. Custodes, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, you just smacked all of them hard.

So yeah, lowering points is absolutely a terrible idea. You're not seeing a BETTER meta, just a DIFFERENT one (that you happen to like more).

That said, I didn't hear any stories of NOVA having any time issues at all. No ITC tournament I've been to since the introduction of chess clocks has had a real problem either. I'm personally on a 10 game streak or so for finishing on time or with time to spare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Vakruz wrote:
Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

You definitely came out swinging at other people for THEIR theoretical opinions, though, didn't you? Especially when in a thread agreeing with your opinion, with nobody having commented with the opposite opinion...

Here they come Vakruz! Right on time!

Right, because discussing your opinion on the merits (it screws elite armies) is the same as "blasting" your opinion.

I commonly play full primaris at 1500 with zero issues in local tournaments. I think you're over exaggerating it. It's harder, but that's the challenge. Elite armies still have the disadvantage in this edition no matter what points cost the game is set at due to the favor of hordes in 8th, so it doesn't really make that much of a difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lare2 wrote:
1750 is pretty much the standard now in my local area, following gw's example. Much prefer the lower amount... Although I've concerns about the new pts essentially negating the rationale for dropping to 1750.

I'd be alright with 1750, it's a good compromise between the 1500 and 2K communities.

I hate to be the rain cloud here but Primaris aren't an 'elite' army despite the advertising of GW. Intercessors are 17 PPM with gear after CA, I believe. Custodian Guard (Custodes Troop Unit) are 52 PPM with their cheapest gear. You can get 3 Intercessors for every 1 Custodian Guard. Even a Grey Knight Strike Squad member is 21 PPM with cheapest gear (and only 1 wound!) so it's still more costly than Primaris. Armigers are, obviously, over 150 PPM regardless of loadout. Even Deathwatch Intercessors cost more (2 PPM) because of SIA.

For record, the cheapest possible (and by no means effective) Custodes battalion is like 692 points. The cheapest possible Primaris Battalion is on the order of 437 (and I didn't include HQ point drops in CA for Primaris because I don't have them on hand).

I did come out swinging a bit, yes, but mostly because the majority of the time i post, it makes me nervous to even respond to stuff like this. Trying to voice my issues goes un-noticed and played down which i tend to not worry about. But after seeing what happened to my local play groups multiple times in different cities because of the same group of people who wont even attempt to play the enjoyable for anyone else, because of the same exact reasons which this post originated from, and actively try to run people off, it kind if sucks. And having togusa post and comment on exactly how i feel and for once on this forum i guess i may have gotten carried away a tad

Now that all armies are effectively even cheaper, the gap in points is even worse. Defilers are now overpriced in Power compared to points, as are drop pods and dreadnoughts. Heck, are tactical marines and CSM now overpriced in power due to special wargear going down? I was never a fan of power and with these new changes its even more distorted. Its an entry level system and nothing more at this point.

Casual Gamer with PL issues trying to drag in Match play again for some reason thread?

Why is this?

It's as others have said, absolutely the points should be dropped but the tournament community has "chosen" 2000 points as the standard, and woe betide anyone who dares suggest to deviates from that. The holy ITC and its patron saint Reecius have decided that 2k is the best points.

Army size has been creeping up for twenty years, but again players are not beholden to anyone on what scale games they play.

If you choose to attend a tournament, they are choosing what they feel is logical and right - over time this may change, or they'll mitigate it by introducing chess clocks, etc. But again, this is a narrow version of 40K that you're choosing to play, whilst also choosing to attend an event...so you play by their rules.

Outside of that, play whatever the hell you want. We play tokenhammer, so we already play 1,500 points as standard --- now that 1,500 points is a handful more models, but shouldn't be as large an impact as the people saving 200-300 points on a 2,000 point list.

Though I agree power and points are seperated nowadays, GW have taken their tournaments down to 1750 and clubs I play in are also adopting it, this is pre-CA however at the moment it provides a heightened tactical feel due to not being able to bring all the big guns

I notice a good number of European events dropping back to 1750. In the USA it's pretty ingrained to 2000 points because of the ITC.

Wayniac wrote:
It's as others have said, absolutely the points should be dropped but the tournament community has "chosen" 2000 points as the standard, and woe betide anyone who dares suggest to deviates from that. The holy ITC and its patron saint Reecius have decided that 2k is the best points.

Wow, you really feel oppressed by the ITC don't you?

Reece has said he would be open to dropping the points but 2000 always wins when they put it to a vote.

Audustum wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Audustum wrote:
It's not perfect when you play elite armies. 1,500 is going to heavily skew towards favoring cheaper armies that get to keep their toys. Custodes, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, you just smacked all of them hard.

So yeah, lowering points is absolutely a terrible idea. You're not seeing a BETTER meta, just a DIFFERENT one (that you happen to like more).

That said, I didn't hear any stories of NOVA having any time issues at all. No ITC tournament I've been to since the introduction of chess clocks has had a real problem either. I'm personally on a 10 game streak or so for finishing on time or with time to spare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Vakruz wrote:
Feels kinda nice to have someone not blast me for my opinion for once lol You made my day, thank you sir

You definitely came out swinging at other people for THEIR theoretical opinions, though, didn't you? Especially when in a thread agreeing with your opinion, with nobody having commented with the opposite opinion...

Here they come Vakruz! Right on time!

Right, because discussing your opinion on the merits (it screws elite armies) is the same as "blasting" your opinion.

I commonly play full primaris at 1500 with zero issues in local tournaments. I think you're over exaggerating it. It's harder, but that's the challenge. Elite armies still have the disadvantage in this edition no matter what points cost the game is set at due to the favor of hordes in 8th, so it doesn't really make that much of a difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lare2 wrote:
1750 is pretty much the standard now in my local area, following gw's example. Much prefer the lower amount... Although I've concerns about the new pts essentially negating the rationale for dropping to 1750.

I'd be alright with 1750, it's a good compromise between the 1500 and 2K communities.

I hate to be the rain cloud here but Primaris aren't an 'elite' army despite the advertising of GW. Intercessors are 17 PPM with gear after CA, I believe. Custodian Guard (Custodes Troop Unit) are 52 PPM with their cheapest gear. You can get 3 Intercessors for every 1 Custodian Guard. Even a Grey Knight Strike Squad member is 21 PPM with cheapest gear (and only 1 wound!) so it's still more costly than Primaris. Armigers are, obviously, over 150 PPM regardless of loadout. Even Deathwatch Intercessors cost more (2 PPM) because of SIA.

For record, the cheapest possible (and by no means effective) Custodes battalion is like 692 points. The cheapest possible Primaris Battalion is on the order of 437 (and I didn't include HQ point drops in CA for Primaris because I don't have them on hand).

It could be my misunderstanding or my own definitions, but to me the difference between elite and horde is High BS/WS combined with low model count, combined with expensive upgrades = Elite. Basically Guardsmen with Lasguns vs. Marines with stalker bolt guns

I have all but given up playing 40k since I really don't enjoy 2000 point games (too much stuff, takes too long, etc.). If I really had my druthers, I would much rather use PL instead of points since I don't think 40k is nearly balanced enough to worry about the extra bookkeeping and most players I know have limited collections that can't spam more wargear just because PL allows it. Even then, I don't want to go much over PL 75-100.

Instead, I have moved to Kill Team which I think has the table size, force scope and streamlined rules I am looking for right now. Sure, I wouldn't mind a few extra data sheets be added to the factions in Kill Team, but at the same time, I am pretty happy it is low enough (and mostly in the same book) that I be easily familiar with whatever my opponent decides to bring.

Ultimately, I kinda want something between regular Warhammer 40k and Kill Team.. Mostly infantry, maybe a couple of transports and/or small heavy/elites (Dreadnought equivalent) and maybe one big vehicle/monster. And by big I mean a like a defiler, land raider, hammerhead or Carinfex.

Yeah, I bet this sounds an awful like I should be playing an older edition. I think I would be all kinds of down playing 3rd, 4th or 5th edition from how they have been described to me. I finally got into 40k at the tail end of 7th so I don't know for sure.