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Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

The transports max out at 4++ if, and only if you keep them within 6" of a foot canoness.

The act of faith requires you to make a successful roll of a 4+ on a d6. One shot per turn. Also 6" bubble.

They get out shot at range by marines, and out meleed by orks and tyrannids, while not having enough fire power to stop getting swamped by either.

So, no. It's not the perfect anti-horde force.

 Mmmpi wrote:
The transports max out at 4++ if, and only if you keep them within 6" of a foot canoness.

The act of faith requires you to make a successful roll of a 4+ on a d6. One shot per turn. Also 6" bubble.

They get out shot at range by marines, and out meleed by orks and tyrannids, while not having enough fire power to stop getting swamped by either.

So, no. It's not the perfect anti-horde force.

Edited the initial message to include your observations regarding 4++


Regarding AOF rolls, you should take the <Order> that gives +1 on them if you plan on using them

Dominion Squad with storm bolters is 60 points, that's 3 squads for 180 pts, same as a 30 Boy squad, with the +1BS bubble thats 24+ dead orcs, that is extremely effective as far as anti horde fire goes

Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

 Dovis wrote:
Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

I think you're over estimating the potential there :
3++ bubble : Unless you have an army full of seraphims, to get 3++ you need a stratagem (usable once per game), a canoness with a specific relic and celestine. This isn't "easy" imho and you're kinda defeating the purpose of your "cp battery" (you're paying over 200 pts just for the characters already).
+1 to hit "bubble" : So, as it occurred to you, it has a heavy cost of 3CP (you forgot that it also cost faith points AND you have to pass a devotion test for the AoF to succeed) and you're not going to have any use of it at all during the first turn. SoBs are dangerous at 12" and under and they lost double move AoF, so there is little chances you have anything to do with it in your first shooting phase (maybe if you play second though). And if you pick up the +1 to succeed AoFs trait, you're probably wasting your trait choice.
Good at clearing chaff : they are nothing special at it and they are arguably worse at it now (remember you could shoot twice with multiple units with the index).

Anyway, you'll see by yourself if you ever try these but I think you have a bit too high expectations.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

3 x Retributors with heavy bolters - 255 points another 23 dead orcs

3 x BSS - 10 more dead orcs (they're not in rapid fire range by turn 1)

TURN 1

So you thin the herd by roughly 60 orcs

Orcs kill your forward stationed Dominion Squads

TURN2

BSS and Retributors kill another 30 orcs

3 Penitent Engines join now - 10 more dead orcs in Shooting and 18 more dead in fight


Celestine, Geminae Superia and Canonnes join the fray and kill another 10 in shooting + melee


That's another 70 orcs dead TURN 2


Plus on average 2 run away due to morale, for another 12 (6 squads 2 lose 2 each)

Only 40 Orcs left, they only scratch Celestine/Superia/Canonness/Penitent Engines


TURN 3

All orcs dead



You DON'T TAKE SOB as an anti armor detachment


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dhallnet wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

I think you're over estimating the potential there :
3++ bubble : Unless you have an army full of seraphims, to get 3++ you need a stratagem (usable once per game), a canoness with a specific relic and celestine. This isn't "easy" imho and you're kinda defeating the purpose of your "cp battery" (you're paying over 200 pts just for the characters already).
+1 to hit "bubble" : So, as it occurred to you, it has a heavy cost of 3CP (you forgot that it also cost faith points AND you have to pass a devotion test for the AoF to succeed) and you're not going to have any use of it at all during the first turn. SoBs are dangerous at 12" and under and they lost double move AoF, so there is little chances you have anything to do with it in your first shooting phase (maybe if you play second though). And if you pick up the +1 to succeed AoFs trait, you're probably wasting your trait choice.
Good at clearing chaff : they are nothing special at it and they are arguably worse at it now (remember you could shoot twice with multiple units with the index).

Anyway, you'll see by yourself if you ever try these but I think you have a bit too high expectations.

1) Celestine + Canoness with Warord trait - auto 3++, no CP needed

2) While sitting inside a transport, Dominions get to move 12 before the game starts, they will be in range for rapid fire

3) Shooting twice with 2 units isn't that much better than hitting on 2+ with multiple more units

 Dovis wrote:
Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

Only 1 unit in the entire force can be 3++, only for one phase, only when within 6" of TWO different characters, one of which MUST be your warlord so no 3++ castellan for you, only if you use a stratagem, AND they're still T3 so you can just kill them with normal bolters and guardsman melee just fine. 4++ transports only work if you keep them within the 6" of two seperate characters. The 4++ also DOESN'T MATTER because the tanks suck and have a hard time maintaining the bonus and the infantry are T3 so you can just kill them with auto-bolt rifles and tesla and whatever and not even worry about the invul at all. The setup you described here runs as much as 1000pts and will chew up 5+CP per turn just to maintain.

This setup is also basically immobile. Trying to maintain the perfect orientation necessary to keep the bubble AND move up the field means you get 7" of movement per turn AT BEST. Also, sidebar, we could do 5++ before far easier in a far better army and no one really bothered. +1 to invul isn't GOOD it's just the best option we have right now.

They don't clear chaff because chaff clear them faster and more efficiently. Their weapons are crap and even with one of the best on paper melee bonuses in the entire game, they can't fight in CQC for more than a turn and have no ability to handle being charged themselves. If something gets into combat with them they can't kill in one round, the entire blob is donezo. You could beat a 1200pt Sisters blob with 2 rhinos.

+1 to hit doesn't matter for the weapons they fire and spending 3CP on it is a pathetically sad use of that CP, even when hitting multiple units. Using the bubble on the first turn isn't important. Sisters of battle only have FOUR special weapons in the ENTIRE ARMY that have a 24" range or higher and those are: Stormbolters, Heavy Bolters, Multimeltas(lol), and the exorcist missle launcher. Heavy bolters don't do that much, even at +1 to hit and Exorcist are so unreliable that it's very difficult to justify taking them at all. You also will FAIL to get +1 to hit 1 out of every 4 trys, which is frankly pathetic for such a mediocre bonus.It's a terrible anti-horde force.

Sisters of battle in these types of setups are slow, shockingly fragile even with a 4++, have essentially zero offense, and are immediately out of the game once charged. Space marines can do far better setups both with Guillimen gunlines and Azrael bubbles. If you want to clear hordes just use aggressors or SM HB devs. You'll have a lot more luck than trying to make sisters of battle work as they are in the beta codex.

The beta codex traded everything that was good about the army for a doggak version of the Azrael bubble.

ERJAK wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

Stop spreading this crap before people actually believe you. Only 1 unit in the entire force can be 3++, only for one phase, only when within 6" of TWO different characters, one of which MUST be your warlord so no 3++ castellan for you, only if you use a stratagem, AND they're still T3 so you can just kill them with normal bolters and guardsman melee just fine. 4++ transports only work if you keep them within the 6" of two seperate characters. The 4++ also DOESN'T MATTER because the tanks suck and have a hard time maintaining the bonus and the infantry are T3 so you can just kill them with auto-bolt rifles and tesla and whatever and not even worry about the invul at all. The setup you described here runs as much as 1000pts and will chew up 5+CP per turn just to maintain.

This setup is also basically immobile. Trying to maintain the perfect orientation necessary to keep the bubble AND move up the field means you get 7" of movement per turn AT BEST. Also, sidebar, we could do 5++ before far easier in a far better army and no one really bothered. +1 to invul isn't GOOD it's just the best option we have right now.

They don't clear chaff because chaff clear them faster and more efficiently. Their weapons are crap and even with one of the best on paper melee bonuses in the entire game, they can't fight in CQC for more than a turn and have no ability to handle being charged themselves. If something gets into combat with them they can't kill in one round, the entire blob is donezo. You could beat a 1200pt Sisters blob with 2 rhinos.

+1 to hit doesn't matter for the weapons they fire and spending 3CP on it is a pathetically sad use of that CP, even when hitting multiple units. Using the bubble on the first turn isn't important. Sisters of battle only have FOUR special weapons in the ENTIRE ARMY that have a 24" range or higher and those are: Stormbolters, Heavy Bolters, Multimeltas(lol), and the exorcist missle launcher. Heavy bolters don't do that much, even at +1 to hit and Exorcist are so unreliable that it's very difficult to justify taking them at all. You also will FAIL to get +1 to hit 1 out of every 4 trys, which is frankly pathetic for such a mediocre bonus.It's a terrible anti-horde force.

Sisters of battle in these types of setups are slow, shockingly fragile even with a 4++, have essentially zero offense, and are immediately out of the game once charged. Space marines can do far better setups both with Guillimen gunlines and Azrael bubbles. If you want to clear hordes just use aggressors or SM HB devs. You'll have a lot more luck than trying to make sisters of battle work as they are in the beta codex.

The beta codex traded everything that was good about the army for a doggak version of the Azrael bubble.

WRONG

1) Canonnes can have a Warlord trait that gives 5++, Celestine with Geminae add +2 for a total of 3++

2) 5++ invuln is of no consequence, because they have a 3+ and in cover that's a 2+ against most weapons you will never have to roll more than 5+ already, 3++ is a HUGE difference

3) Azrael 4++ bubble is rater useless, since it doesn't come into effect most of the time, a 3++ does

4) Aggressors lack range/movement/cheap transport or they come into play on turn 2 via deepstrike, they're good, but a Dominion squad is by far better at the job


People are quick to whine, without seeing the full picture. Also you don't take SOB alone, take imperial soup, they now can supplement others real well

 Dovis wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

3 x Retributors with heavy bolters - 255 points another 23 dead orcs

3 x BSS - 10 more dead orcs (they're not in rapid fire range by turn 1)

TURN 1

So you thin the herd by roughly 60 orcs

Orcs kill your forward stationed Dominion Squads

TURN2

BSS and Retributors kill another 30 orcs

3 Penitent Engines join now - 10 more dead orcs in Shooting and 18 more dead in fight


Celestine, Geminae Superia and Canonnes join the fray and kill another 10 in shooting + melee


That's another 70 orcs dead TURN 2


Plus on average 2 run away due to morale, for another 12 (6 squads 2 lose 2 each)

Only 40 Orcs left, they only scratch Celestine/Superia/Canonness/Penitent Engines


TURN 3

All orcs dead



You DON'T TAKE SOB as an anti armor detachment

12 heavy bolters kills 16 (Retributors)
3x15 sisters kills 13 (If they're within 12 to double tap they orks have already charged)
By the end of turn 1 you're down 29 orks, not 60.

Penitent engines will get charged before they get into flamer range. And tied up all game. Probably with grots.
And Celestine will die the first time to a mob of boyz after killing, maybe four of them.
Turn 2 the orcs charge you, and you kill about 4 on overwatch.
They proceed to kill most of the sisters.
Game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dhallnet wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

I think you're over estimating the potential there :
3++ bubble : Unless you have an army full of seraphims, to get 3++ you need a stratagem (usable once per game), a canoness with a specific relic and celestine. This isn't "easy" imho and you're kinda defeating the purpose of your "cp battery" (you're paying over 200 pts just for the characters already).
+1 to hit "bubble" : So, as it occurred to you, it has a heavy cost of 3CP (you forgot that it also cost faith points AND you have to pass a devotion test for the AoF to succeed) and you're not going to have any use of it at all during the first turn. SoBs are dangerous at 12" and under and they lost double move AoF, so there is little chances you have anything to do with it in your first shooting phase (maybe if you play second though). And if you pick up the +1 to succeed AoFs trait, you're probably wasting your trait choice.
Good at clearing chaff : they are nothing special at it and they are arguably worse at it now (remember you could shoot twice with multiple units with the index).

Anyway, you'll see by yourself if you ever try these but I think you have a bit too high expectations.

1) Celestine + Canoness with Warord trait - auto 3++, no CP needed

2) While sitting inside a transport, Dominions get to move 12 before the game starts, they will be in range for rapid fire

3) Shooting twice with 2 units isn't that much better than hitting on 2+ with multiple more units

1. No argument, but that's only for seraphim. Everything else gets a 4++ and only if withing 6" of both Celestine and the cannoness.

2. And get mobbed after hurting one unit. Also won't have any buffs because nothing can ride with them, and will be out of range of the cannoness.

3. Shoot twice on a 3+ is much better then once on a 2+. Sorry dude. And you only have a 50/50 shot at getting multiple units with said +1 to hit buff.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


12 heavy bolters kills 16 (Retributors)
3x15 sisters kills 13 (If they're within 12 to double tap they orks have already charged)
By the end of turn 1 you're down 29 orks, not 60.

Penitent engines will get charged before they get into flamer range. And tied up all game. Probably with grots.
And Celestine will die the first time to a mob of boyz after killing, maybe four of them.
Turn 2 the orcs charge you, and you kill about 4 on overwatch.
They proceed to kill most of the sisters.
Game.

Retributors - 36*0.97*0.66= 23 I don't know how you're counting, but you're doing it wrong


BSS shoot in a non rapid fire mode turn one, shoot rapid fire on turn 2 when orcs have charged and killed dominions


Penitents join on turn 2, when orcs are close and they can choose targets



Boys/grot list has no chance vs SOB

 Dovis wrote:

Spoiler:

ERJAK wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

Stop spreading this crap before people actually believe you. Only 1 unit in the entire force can be 3++, only for one phase, only when within 6" of TWO different characters, one of which MUST be your warlord so no 3++ castellan for you, only if you use a stratagem, AND they're still T3 so you can just kill them with normal bolters and guardsman melee just fine. 4++ transports only work if you keep them within the 6" of two seperate characters. The 4++ also DOESN'T MATTER because the tanks suck and have a hard time maintaining the bonus and the infantry are T3 so you can just kill them with auto-bolt rifles and tesla and whatever and not even worry about the invul at all. The setup you described here runs as much as 1000pts and will chew up 5+CP per turn just to maintain.

This setup is also basically immobile. Trying to maintain the perfect orientation necessary to keep the bubble AND move up the field means you get 7" of movement per turn AT BEST. Also, sidebar, we could do 5++ before far easier in a far better army and no one really bothered. +1 to invul isn't GOOD it's just the best option we have right now.

They don't clear chaff because chaff clear them faster and more efficiently. Their weapons are crap and even with one of the best on paper melee bonuses in the entire game, they can't fight in CQC for more than a turn and have no ability to handle being charged themselves. If something gets into combat with them they can't kill in one round, the entire blob is donezo. You could beat a 1200pt Sisters blob with 2 rhinos.

+1 to hit doesn't matter for the weapons they fire and spending 3CP on it is a pathetically sad use of that CP, even when hitting multiple units. Using the bubble on the first turn isn't important. Sisters of battle only have FOUR special weapons in the ENTIRE ARMY that have a 24" range or higher and those are: Stormbolters, Heavy Bolters, Multimeltas(lol), and the exorcist missle launcher. Heavy bolters don't do that much, even at +1 to hit and Exorcist are so unreliable that it's very difficult to justify taking them at all. You also will FAIL to get +1 to hit 1 out of every 4 trys, which is frankly pathetic for such a mediocre bonus.It's a terrible anti-horde force.

Sisters of battle in these types of setups are slow, shockingly fragile even with a 4++, have essentially zero offense, and are immediately out of the game once charged. Space marines can do far better setups both with Guillimen gunlines and Azrael bubbles. If you want to clear hordes just use aggressors or SM HB devs. You'll have a lot more luck than trying to make sisters of battle work as they are in the beta codex.

The beta codex traded everything that was good about the army for a doggak version of the Azrael bubble.

WRONG

1) Canonnes can have a Warlord trait that gives 5++, Celestine with Geminae add +2 for a total of 3++

2) 5++ invuln is of no consequence, because they have a 3+ and in cover that's a 2+ against most weapons you will never have to roll more than 5+ already, 3++ is a HUGE difference

3) Azrael 4++ bubble is rater useless, since it doesn't come into effect most of the time, a 3++ does

4) Aggressors lack range/movement/cheap transport or they come into play on turn 2 via deepstrike, they're good, but a Dominion squad is by far better at the job


People are quick to whine, without seeing the full picture. Also you don't take SOB alone, take imperial soup, they now can supplement others real well

1. No, celestine add 1 to sisters, and adds 2 to geminae. Not +1 from each to the rest of the army. So...right for ERJAK.
2. 4++. We've already gone over how Sheild of faith works. Sisters die to massed bolter fire, not plasma.
3. 4++. We've gone over this. Plus the bubble is harder to maintain.
4. A dominion squad is, but it's not enough.

People who've played the army for years are at a loss on how win with them. And if you're going to soup, just take the usual Custodies Jetbikes, and IG morters.

 Dovis wrote:

1) Celestine + Canoness with Warord trait - auto 3++, no CP needed

2) While sitting inside a transport, Dominions get to move 12 before the game starts, they will be in range for rapid fire

3) Shooting twice with 2 units isn't that much better than hitting on 2+ with multiple more units

- You get +1 with celestine and +1 with the warlord. So you are at 4++ unless you're talking about seraphims which starts at 5++. 3++ is only once per battle.
- Yes they will be in range turn 1. But since we were talking about the 3CP, +1 to hit bubble usage during the first turn, it means you're willing to buy 3 transports, 3 squads of dominions and put your warlord in an akward place (it's aura reach as far as your vanguard move if you took the right relic, so you'll have to move forward - without the relic you have to put it in the transports) to use that 3 CP strat that let you hit with a +1 if you succeed a devotion test.
- A unit of ret with HB shooting twice kills a bit more than 10 orks. The same unit shooting once but with +1 to hit kills a bit more than 6. With a +1 to hit, you would need 3 units to kill 20 orks. 2 double shooting squads of rets kills a bit more than 21.
So you achieve more or less the same result but in one case you used 2 40 points model, in the other you used a character + 3CP + one more squad.
If you're thinking now about getting some SoB for their bolter fire output, you should have been considering them during the index.

Edit :

People are quick to whine, without seeing the full picture. Also you don't take SOB alone, take imperial soup, they now can supplement others real well

I'm replying in the context of your thread where you take SoBs as a detachement to get CP and some "anti horde" but as a SoB player, I don't want to play soup and don't want to be forced to (even if I can already).

 Dovis wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


12 heavy bolters kills 16 (Retributors)
3x15 sisters kills 13 (If they're within 12 to double tap they orks have already charged)
By the end of turn 1 you're down 29 orks, not 60.

Penitent engines will get charged before they get into flamer range. And tied up all game. Probably with grots.
And Celestine will die the first time to a mob of boyz after killing, maybe four of them.
Turn 2 the orcs charge you, and you kill about 4 on overwatch.
They proceed to kill most of the sisters.
Game.

Retributors - 36*0.9*0.66= 23 I don't know how you're counting, but you're doing it wrong


BSS shoot in a non rapid fire mode turn one, shoot rapid fire on turn 2 when orcs have charged and killed dominions


Penitents join on turn 2, when orcs are close and they can choose targets



Boys/grot list has no chance vs SOB

36 shots, hitting on 3's so 24 hits. wounding on 3's so 16 wounds. No save usually for the orks.

BSS shoot one shot turn one and get charged right afterwards. What is this round 2 nonsense?
As for dominions, sure. Orks charge them...oh wait, they don't. Or sorry, some do, and lock down the transports. Oh, you didn't include dominions in your calculation btw. So 30-60 orks lock down three tanks, and the other 90 orks wipe out the sisters.

Penitents get charged turn one. Get an overwatch, then die.

Grots work because what are you going to shoot, grots or boyz? And they last long enough (one turn) to keep the P.Engines from doing anything meaningful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dhallnet wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

1) Celestine + Canoness with Warord trait - auto 3++, no CP needed

2) While sitting inside a transport, Dominions get to move 12 before the game starts, they will be in range for rapid fire

3) Shooting twice with 2 units isn't that much better than hitting on 2+ with multiple more units

- You get +1 with celestine and +1 with the warlord. So you are at 4++ unless you're talking about seraphims which starts at 5++. 3++ is only once per battle.
- Yes they will be in range turn 1. But since we were talking about the 3CP, +1 to hit bubble usage during the first turn, it means you're willing to buy 3 transports, 3 squads of dominions and put your warlord in an akward place (it's aura reach as far as your vanguard move if you took the right relic, so you'll have to move forward - without the relic you have to put it in the transports) to use that 3 CP strat that let you hit with a +1 if you succeed a devotion test.
- A unit of ret with HB shooting twice kills a bit more than 10 orks. The same unit shooting once but with +1 to hit kills a bit more than 6. With a +1 to hit, you would need 3 units to kill 20 orks. 2 double shooting squads of rets kills a bit more than 21.
So you achieve more or less the same result but in one case you used 2 40 points model, in the other you used a character + 3CP + one more squad.

Just want to point out, once per battle, and only for one unit. And that unit has to be a BSS, Celestians, Retributors, or dominions. Nothing else.

You also have to bail out of the tanks if you want to have the act of faith effect them. No AoF while mounted up.

Not contradicting you, just adding on.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

Ummm he just noted 180 pts of sisterns wiped 24 orks which is 168 pts. Getting almost itself paid back in 1 turn is excelent kill ratio. That's btw waaaaaaay better than say leman russ punisher has. Or crusader knight.

What? You expect to kill 180 orks(1260 pts) with 180 pts unit in one turn? Sheesh what entitlement. Yeah let's kill over 50% of enemy army in one turn with less than 9% of own army. That's fair and balanced!

tneva82 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

Ummm he just noted 180 pts of sisterns wiped 24 orks which is 168 pts. Getting almost itself paid back in 1 turn is excelent kill ratio. That's btw waaaaaaay better than say leman russ punisher has. Or crusader knight.

What? You expect to kill 180 orks(1260 pts) with 180 pts unit in one turn? Sheesh what entitlement. Yeah let's kill over 50% of enemy army in one turn with less than 9% of own army. That's fair and balanced!

Pretty sure this is a bad trolling attempt but his math is wildly off. 3 min sized units of SB Dominions kills 16 orks with the +1 to hit which cost 3CP. They kill 13 without any CP usage (so much for that strat to be OP, you kill one ork per CP).
Also knights and punishers aren't 15 wound toughness 3 models having to be at 12".

Well I went with numbers posted. But 16 orks? That's 112 pts so 2/3 of their points. And it's not like they are one use and STILL better ratio than punisher and not even factoring in morale casualties.

Expecting 168 to kill 1260 pts just like that is more than "bit" unreasonable. Shows that the person isn't even interested in tactics or playing good but just wants "I win" button.

Getting 1/3 of own points killed in one turn is good. 2/3 would be bloody good and indeed ork infantry swarm won't be able to survive trying to just headbang against anything that kills 2/3 of orks just like that.

tneva82 wrote:
Well I went with numbers posted. But 16 orks? That's 112 pts so 2/3 of their points. And it's not like they are one use and STILL better ratio than punisher and not even factoring in morale casualties.

A LR Punisher kill 11 (just with the main turret) for 30 less points from 24" and with 0 support.
Now move on.

 Dovis wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

3 x Retributors with heavy bolters - 255 points another 23 dead orcs

3 x BSS - 10 more dead orcs (they're not in rapid fire range by turn 1)

TURN 1

So you thin the herd by roughly 60 orcs

Orcs kill your forward stationed Dominion Squads

TURN2

BSS and Retributors kill another 30 orcs

3 Penitent Engines join now - 10 more dead orcs in Shooting and 18 more dead in fight


Celestine, Geminae Superia and Canonnes join the fray and kill another 10 in shooting + melee


That's another 70 orcs dead TURN 2


Plus on average 2 run away due to morale, for another 12 (6 squads 2 lose 2 each)

Only 40 Orcs left, they only scratch Celestine/Superia/Canonness/Penitent Engines


TURN 3

All orcs dead



You DON'T TAKE SOB as an anti armor detachment


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dhallnet wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

I think you're over estimating the potential there :
3++ bubble : Unless you have an army full of seraphims, to get 3++ you need a stratagem (usable once per game), a canoness with a specific relic and celestine. This isn't "easy" imho and you're kinda defeating the purpose of your "cp battery" (you're paying over 200 pts just for the characters already).
+1 to hit "bubble" : So, as it occurred to you, it has a heavy cost of 3CP (you forgot that it also cost faith points AND you have to pass a devotion test for the AoF to succeed) and you're not going to have any use of it at all during the first turn. SoBs are dangerous at 12" and under and they lost double move AoF, so there is little chances you have anything to do with it in your first shooting phase (maybe if you play second though). And if you pick up the +1 to succeed AoFs trait, you're probably wasting your trait choice.
Good at clearing chaff : they are nothing special at it and they are arguably worse at it now (remember you could shoot twice with multiple units with the index).

Anyway, you'll see by yourself if you ever try these but I think you have a bit too high expectations.

1) Celestine + Canoness with Warord trait - auto 3++, no CP needed

2) While sitting inside a transport, Dominions get to move 12 before the game starts, they will be in range for rapid fire

3) Shooting twice with 2 units isn't that much better than hitting on 2+ with multiple more units

1) Celestine(+1 to shield of Faith) +canoness with warlord trait(Sets shield of Faith to a 5++) only gets to a 4++. There is a 1CP stratagem you can use once per game that will allow one unit with a 10pt upgrade +1 to invul once. Seraphim have a special ability that allow THEM to get to a 3++ BUT seraphim can only shoot 12" maximum, ever. If you want to do a 6" move 3++ bubble on T3 1W models that can't shoot and are terrible in combat and cost 11pts each...that's a troll. They're T3 and 1 wound. Even at 3++ two units of bolter scouts will kill that entire bubble before it even gets in range to shoot. CRUSADERS from the guard book get 3++ natively, are easier to use, have solid melee stats, can spread out so they're not all clumped up and easy to target and are cheaper because you don't need 205pts of characters to babysit them.

Crusaders have been better at the thing you're trying to do since the Index, just use those.

2) Yeah, for one turn until they die, if you go first, and then you don't get any of the other bonuses you were talking about. Even getting +1 to hit requires rolling a 4+, only buffs one unit, and means you can't buff ANYTHING else with it for the rest of the turn.

3) Yes it is. Even outside of the damage output which is usually going to favor double shooting(you have to hit 3 units of heavy bolter retributors with the +1 to still be WORSE than 2 units double shooting. Just imagine how bad the swing is on Heavy Flamer retributors ) , the utility of both being able to shoot before the movement phase and being able to spread the units further than 6" apart are massive benefits that give tactical options the Vessels bubble has a hard time matching.

Finally, all of your math makes your points seem suspect. You're presenting it under ideal conditions and the numbers you're coming out to are still woefully unimpressive. The scenario you suggested means that the if the Ork player does nothing but killing a few units of dominions for the entire game, it still takes you 3 turns to kill them. It's also basically mandatory that you go first and that your opponent have no idea what your army does. Even then, the exact same strategy could have been done in the index list, but better.

Ork shooting is enough for that many Boyz to be killing 15-20 SoB per turn through their 3+ armor, not even hitting a 4++ bubble, that's not even counting their longer range units. The fact that if Sisters are in range to shoot Orkz means that the Orkz are 2 turns at most away from charging them. Once the Boyz charge, the fight is over, the 4++ means nothing underneath the weight of that many attacks. If the Orkz have any vehicles they can use those to tie up the sisters long enough for the Boyz to come in.

Finally, Sisters of Battle are supposed to be an army, not a list padder for people who don't like how Guardsman look. The fact that we have decent anti-horde tools is nice, but giving up most of tools for dealing with the big scary stuff other armies can give to the table for the sake of being slightly better at culling Ork hordes isn't exactly a great trade-off.

dhallnet wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

Ummm he just noted 180 pts of sisterns wiped 24 orks which is 168 pts. Getting almost itself paid back in 1 turn is excelent kill ratio. That's btw waaaaaaay better than say leman russ punisher has. Or crusader knight.

What? You expect to kill 180 orks(1260 pts) with 180 pts unit in one turn? Sheesh what entitlement. Yeah let's kill over 50% of enemy army in one turn with less than 9% of own army. That's fair and balanced!

Pretty sure this is a bad trolling attempt but his math is wildly off. 3 min sized units of SB Dominions kills 16 orks with the +1 to hit which cost 3CP. They kill 13 without any CP usage (so much for that strat to be OP, you kill one ork per CP).
Also knights and punishers aren't 15 wound toughness 3 models having to be at 12".

tneva82 wrote:Well I went with numbers posted. But 16 orks? That's 112 pts so 2/3 of their points. And it's not like they are one use and STILL better ratio than punisher and not even factoring in morale casualties.

Expecting 168 to kill 1260 pts just like that is more than "bit" unreasonable. Shows that the person isn't even interested in tactics or playing good but just wants "I win" button.

Getting 1/3 of own points killed in one turn is good. 2/3 would be bloody good and indeed ork infantry swarm won't be able to survive trying to just headbang against anything that kills 2/3 of orks just like that.

It assumes quite a few things, such as 1st turn, actually getting 15 dominons in range (not hard), dismounted (harder) and still in the buff bubble of a character (who can't ride with them) (Even harder). As noted, the average is 13 orks, so under half a unit, which is just at half, not counting the cost of the repressors (over 110 each), or cannoness. So It's not 180 points hanging in the wind, it's 588, assuming a naked cannoness. Oh, yeah, and those almost 600 points are dead on the Ork's turn.

Congrats on killing 150 points of orks (you didn't include repressor shooting).

Also, if you're blowing 3CP turn one to kill 16 orks, you're not making much use of your battery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to make a sister's battery here's how you do it.

Take
Cannoness w/ 5++ WL trait and brazier of holy fire.
Missionary because it's a cheap HQ that helps mitigate leadership and gives a few attacks.
3 squads of 5 sisters with stormbolters.
Take the overwatch on a 5+ Conviction, and sit them on objectives.
So that way you have 3 objectives covered, with a 2+ save troops, and four DtW attempts.

Costs 288 pts before wargear for the characters.

tneva82 wrote:
Well I went with numbers posted. But 16 orks? That's 112 pts so 2/3 of their points. And it's not like they are one use and STILL better ratio than punisher and not even factoring in morale casualties.

Expecting 168 to kill 1260 pts just like that is more than "bit" unreasonable. Shows that the person isn't even interested in tactics or playing good but just wants "I win" button.

Getting 1/3 of own points killed in one turn is good. 2/3 would be bloody good and indeed ork infantry swarm won't be able to survive trying to just headbang against anything that kills 2/3 of orks just like that.

They absolutely are one use. Storm bolter Dominions will die the moment they get to shoot. Sometimes before. That's 5 T3 wounds. The Ork player wouldn't even need to try. And that's if the dummy let you get that squad to his boyz in the first place. All of this also requires that you go first. If you go second, they pop your transport and you do nothing. 150pts down the drain.

Look, you may play with the type of people who will just leave their boyz arse out in the wind, or just give you freebie kills out of pity, but some of us deal with people who know what they're doing.

Finally, we've been able to do that EXACT THING since at least 5th edition. Why is it suddenly something an 'infantry swarm won't be able to survive'? We used to be able to bring 10-12 units of Stormbolter dominions and nobody cared then either. Not even during conscript spam when it would have been actually broken.

Oh, you NEVER get to buff them with Vessels or reroll 1s to hit too by the way. Characters can't go in their transports. If you take dominions, they're entirely on their own.

 Mmmpi wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

Ummm he just noted 180 pts of sisterns wiped 24 orks which is 168 pts. Getting almost itself paid back in 1 turn is excelent kill ratio. That's btw waaaaaaay better than say leman russ punisher has. Or crusader knight.

What? You expect to kill 180 orks(1260 pts) with 180 pts unit in one turn? Sheesh what entitlement. Yeah let's kill over 50% of enemy army in one turn with less than 9% of own army. That's fair and balanced!

Pretty sure this is a bad trolling attempt but his math is wildly off. 3 min sized units of SB Dominions kills 16 orks with the +1 to hit which cost 3CP. They kill 13 without any CP usage (so much for that strat to be OP, you kill one ork per CP).
Also knights and punishers aren't 15 wound toughness 3 models having to be at 12".

tneva82 wrote:Well I went with numbers posted. But 16 orks? That's 112 pts so 2/3 of their points. And it's not like they are one use and STILL better ratio than punisher and not even factoring in morale casualties.

Expecting 168 to kill 1260 pts just like that is more than "bit" unreasonable. Shows that the person isn't even interested in tactics or playing good but just wants "I win" button.

Getting 1/3 of own points killed in one turn is good. 2/3 would be bloody good and indeed ork infantry swarm won't be able to survive trying to just headbang against anything that kills 2/3 of orks just like that.

It assumes quite a few things, such as 1st turn, actually getting 15 dominons in range (not hard), dismounted (harder) and still in the buff bubble of a character (who can't ride with them) (Even harder). As noted, the average is 13 orks, so under half a unit, which is just at half, not counting the cost of the repressors (over 110 each), or cannoness. So It's not 180 points hanging in the wind, it's 588, assuming a naked cannoness. Oh, yeah, and those almost 600 points are dead on the Ork's turn.

Congrats on killing 150 points of orks (you didn't include repressor shooting).

Also, if you're blowing 3CP turn one to kill 16 orks, you're not making much use of your battery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to make a sister's battery here's how you do it.

Take
Cannoness w/ 5++ WL trait and brazier of holy fire.
Missionary because it's a cheap HQ that helps mitigate leadership and gives a few attacks.
3 squads of 5 sisters with stormbolters.
Take the overwatch on a 5+ Conviction, and sit them on objectives.
So that way you have 3 objectives covered, with a 2+ save troops, and four DtW attempts.

Costs 288 pts before wargear for the characters.

60*0.78*0.5*0.84=19.6 dead orc with them not getting +1 and using no CP

Even if you have orcs in cover - it's 15 killed, Idk how you're counting, but your math is wrong


Dominions can move 9" before combat, then 6" in movement phase, that's easily enough to get them in rapid fire range, one Canoness advancing to give them reroll 1


If you're not getting to go 1st in turn one, you can safely stay back and pepper the orc from afar, at best he can charge one unit which is suicide for the orc. Obviously you guys have a hard time grasping the use of cover or staying back if you're not in a favorable position, so that you can do your thing on turn 2


However you look at it, orcs have no chance in a horde setup vs SOB

 Dovis wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
Easy to come by 3++ bubble, they're like what marines should be in terms of durability, ALSO 4++ TRANSPORTS

Easy to come by 2+ BS bubble (sure it costs 3 CP, but you can afford that 1st turn when it's most important)


A lot of people are focusing on the negative, like AOF being nerfed, which they did, but with all that SOB got in return, it's a really, really good army at what it's supposed to do - clearing chaff like heretics, orcs and such.


It's a perfect anti-horde force

Stop spreading this crap before people actually believe you. Only 1 unit in the entire force can be 3++, only for one phase, only when within 6" of TWO different characters, one of which MUST be your warlord so no 3++ castellan for you, only if you use a stratagem, AND they're still T3 so you can just kill them with normal bolters and guardsman melee just fine. 4++ transports only work if you keep them within the 6" of two seperate characters. The 4++ also DOESN'T MATTER because the tanks suck and have a hard time maintaining the bonus and the infantry are T3 so you can just kill them with auto-bolt rifles and tesla and whatever and not even worry about the invul at all. The setup you described here runs as much as 1000pts and will chew up 5+CP per turn just to maintain.

This setup is also basically immobile. Trying to maintain the perfect orientation necessary to keep the bubble AND move up the field means you get 7" of movement per turn AT BEST. Also, sidebar, we could do 5++ before far easier in a far better army and no one really bothered. +1 to invul isn't GOOD it's just the best option we have right now.

They don't clear chaff because chaff clear them faster and more efficiently. Their weapons are crap and even with one of the best on paper melee bonuses in the entire game, they can't fight in CQC for more than a turn and have no ability to handle being charged themselves. If something gets into combat with them they can't kill in one round, the entire blob is donezo. You could beat a 1200pt Sisters blob with 2 rhinos.

+1 to hit doesn't matter for the weapons they fire and spending 3CP on it is a pathetically sad use of that CP, even when hitting multiple units. Using the bubble on the first turn isn't important. Sisters of battle only have FOUR special weapons in the ENTIRE ARMY that have a 24" range or higher and those are: Stormbolters, Heavy Bolters, Multimeltas(lol), and the exorcist missle launcher. Heavy bolters don't do that much, even at +1 to hit and Exorcist are so unreliable that it's very difficult to justify taking them at all. You also will FAIL to get +1 to hit 1 out of every 4 trys, which is frankly pathetic for such a mediocre bonus.It's a terrible anti-horde force.

Sisters of battle in these types of setups are slow, shockingly fragile even with a 4++, have essentially zero offense, and are immediately out of the game once charged. Space marines can do far better setups both with Guillimen gunlines and Azrael bubbles. If you want to clear hordes just use aggressors or SM HB devs. You'll have a lot more luck than trying to make sisters of battle work as they are in the beta codex.

The beta codex traded everything that was good about the army for a doggak version of the Azrael bubble.

WRONG

1) Canonnes can have a Warlord trait that gives 5++, Celestine with Geminae add +2 for a total of 3++

2) 5++ invuln is of no consequence, because they have a 3+ and in cover that's a 2+ against most weapons you will never have to roll more than 5+ already, 3++ is a HUGE difference

3) Azrael 4++ bubble is rater useless, since it doesn't come into effect most of the time, a 3++ does

4) Aggressors lack range/movement/cheap transport or they come into play on turn 2 via deepstrike, they're good, but a Dominion squad is by far better at the job


People are quick to whine, without seeing the full picture. Also you don't take SOB alone, take imperial soup, they now can supplement others real well

Wrong,

1) Celestine gives +2 to the GEMINAE and +1 to everything else.. The GEMINAE can get up to 3++(not that you would ever take them) not every unit within 6", that would be stupid.

2) The same EXACT thing is true of a 4++ invul unless you're wasting RFBC shots at killing sisters, which is what an idiot would do.

3) The SoB bubble is even more useless because it ISN'T a 3++.

4) Aggressors have even better movement than dominions do with Ravenguard and people seem super onboard the Dominions train at the moment as well.

5) That's not the way armies SHOULD be though. Space Marine players spent 17 pages in another thread on this VERY forum complaining about that exact thing. Sisters COULD function as their own army before but lost most of their non-chaff clearing power to the index list. That's why Sisters players aren't happy with the new book.

You read the book too fast and thought you figured something out that everyone else missed and I get that, but you were wrong.

He charges one unit into your army and ties them up for a turn while he advances. Worth it.

As ERJAK and other have pointed out, this is nothing new for sisters, and they still don't get used for anti-horde. And they shoot less now. And congrats, you used 588 points to kill 17 orks (not 15).

What now?

Ok wait. If a sisters army which are specialists in different flavours of flamers (which got a price decrease), can't handle horde, then there is something fundamentally wrong with flamers in the first place.

And for killing non-horde. Exorcists look pretty decent to me. Range 48 inches, d6 shots of str 8 at -4 AP, dmg d6 at BS 3+, all for just 125 points. Bring three for a total of just 375 points.

 Dovis wrote:

60*0.78*0.5*0.84=19.6 dead orc with them not getting +1 and using no CP

I'm not willing to check the rest of your math but one thing is certain : you don't get 60 shots with 3 min sized stormbolters dominion squads. Neither do you with rets.
So I don't know what unit you're talking about, but you aren't doing anything during the first turn.

 Dovis wrote:
However you look at it, orcs have no chance in a horde setup vs SOB

However you look at it, SoBs could already do before whatever you think they can do now (outside of stacking invuls) and more. Weird that you're thinking about them just now.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Why? They're not worth it.

Yup, so pray tell, how are sisters supposed to kill armor if their armor killing unit is being given stormbolters?

Also, just 24 orks? So...only 156 to go...

With a castellan? at least when GK players ask how they suppose to deal with one, everyone gives that anwser.

Lol this thread is funny. The title is almost correct, Sisters are a good CP battery so armies that actually have good units and abilities can be better.

As a gunline on their own? They don't have the range, firepower, or abilities to stand up to any other gunline out there.
They don't have any mobility to actually take objectives to win games.
They are a less valid mono-dex army than any other real Codex, even ones that only have 1 entry per Force Org slot (Harlequins, for example).

At best from a competitive standpoint, sisters from the Beta Codex can be a good min sized battalion for CPs and provide some psychic defense, though Guard still generate more CPs if that's what you're after.

Ask anyone that actually plays Sisters, the Index was far better than the Beta Codex, and more fun and flavorful. They kind of work if they are a minor contributor to an army for CPs for Deathwatch or Custodes, a Castellan, an Assassin detatchment, etc., but they are not a viable main army right now. Too many deficiencies in too many categories, at least based on my games so far (1-5 record with beta Codex, with the only win against TS due to psychic defenses). The mathhammer doesn't hold up in actual game play.

*Edit: and who cares about killing Orks anyway. Everyone can kill Orks, that's why they exist. If you kill 90 Orks by shooting, but 30 get to your line and roll you up then the Orks still win.

They do actually get 60 shots. 5 stormbolters x 4 shots x three units.

Not wrong about the rest though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

You're not wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Bingo!

 Mmmpi wrote:
He charges one unit into your army and ties them up for a turn while he advances. Worth it.

As ERJAK and other have pointed out, this is nothing new for sisters, and they still don't get used for anti-horde. And they shoot less now. And congrats, you used 588 points to kill 17 orks (not 15).

What now?

60+60+60+45=225 points not 588


He doesn't tie anything if he charges, because you know how to position, use cover and ruins with multiple floors, you lose the forward positioned Dominions and that's it, but point per point you're still leading

Also Penitent Engines are absolute monsters now, with 100 points you get 8 attacs of rerolable 3 + 2 heavy flamers. A Penitent Engine + BSS (3 SB) costs 151 point and can beat a Boy squad.

You forgot the three repressors.

and good luck on getting that perfect terrain set up buddy.

And no, P.Engines are fragile as all get out.