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Made in ca
Sister Vastly Superior





There have been talks out there how The Passion can be used to break the fight phase for sisters of battle.

I have been wrapping my hear around this to and understand the theories people have come up with, but I would love an open debate on this topic.

Some background:

The Passion (an act of faith cast on a 5+ on 1d6) :

Use this act of faith at the beginning of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.


Now the BRB Fight Phase

1. Chose a unit to fight with.

Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase... (rest of the text does not contribute to the debate)


Now the argument is that normally you cannot chose a unit to fight with unless it has met the restrictions in the BRB. The beta codex however seems to overrule this changing the restriction to passing the act of fight and then indicating the unit can be chosen to fight with twice. It basically seems to overwrite the standard restrictions. You don't have to check if the units can be chosen, the act is telling you to chose the unit.



This by itself would not be a big deal if it was not for vessel of the emperor. A 3CP stratagem that alllows you to cascade this AoF from a character unto every units within 6 inches of it. With proper placement it could allow to move an extra 12 inches with large portion of your army into the fight phase.


What does the community make of this?



18 / 3 / 6 since 6th ed. 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think it works.

There are other units that function in a similar manner, such as Berzerkers.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






The rule is worded word for word "Use this act of faith at the start of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase"

So the rule is stated, you may be selected twice in that phase.

It never said you may fight, but when it is chosen to fight, it may be chosen twice.


Then in the BRB it is stated how you are chosen to fight, you must have charged, or are within 1" of an enemy unit.

Some rules will state that you may be chosen to fight out of order, and they are worded to do so.

Example: Ynnari "this unit my fight as if it were the fight phase" it is stating you may fight, not to be chosen again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 02:50:25


   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Amishprn86 wrote:
The rule is worded word for word "Use this act of faith at the start of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase"

So the rule is stated, you may be selected twice in that phase.

It never said you may fight, but when it is chosen to fight, it may be chosen twice.


Then in the BRB it is stated how you are chosen to fight, you must have charged, or are within 1" of an enemy unit.

Some rules will state that you may be chosen to fight out of order, and they are worded to do so.

Example: Ynnari "this unit my fight as if it were the fight phase" it is stating you may fight, not to be chosen again.
Yeah, I agree here. It lets you pick the unit twice, and that's it. It doesn't ignore any of the other rules for fighting.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

"can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.

Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Utah

 DeathReaper wrote:
"can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.

Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.


The BRB uses the phrase "Can be chosen" to qualify units for being able to fight. They start in "not eligible" by default.

The Passion explicitly says that the effected unit "Can be chosen to fight with twice". If you follow the description on the tin, that unit can be chosen to fight, and then be chosen to fight a second time with the normal rules regarding alternating activations still applying.

Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the targeting restriction of "must be within an inch of enemy model", but that was removed for the Chapter Approved rework.

Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the wording of "an additional time", thus requiring you to satisfy the rules to fight for the first fight.

The thought process seems clearly designed to make The Passion splash onto units which are not in range to fight via Vessel of the Emperor, and thus allow them to enter the fight.

The fact that you can use it when none of the effected units are in combat is likely an unintended edge-case of that coupled with Big FAQ2 mandating that you don't skip phases even if you have no units eligible for them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 05:05:17


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






"The thought process seems clearly designed to make The Passion splash onto units which are not in range to fight via Vessel of the Emperor, and thus allow them to enter the fight. "
No, it seems clear when you fight, you are allowed to fight a second time.

Anyways there is a FAQ that already says if you are not within 1" you can not melee unless the rules says otherwise, just like all Aeldari, Nids, etc.. rules state that you get to pile in, or immediately fight. The Passion say neither.




   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





It was already pointed out to you that that FAQ doesn't apply to this situation.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




PuppetSoul wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
"can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.

Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.


The BRB uses the phrase "Can be chosen" to qualify units for being able to fight. They start in "not eligible" by default.

The Passion explicitly says that the effected unit "Can be chosen to fight with twice". If you follow the description on the tin, that unit can be chosen to fight, and then be chosen to fight a second time with the normal rules regarding alternating activations still applying.

Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the targeting restriction of "must be within an inch of enemy model", but that was removed for the Chapter Approved rework.

Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the wording of "an additional time", thus requiring you to satisfy the rules to fight for the first fight.

The thought process seems clearly designed to make The Passion splash onto units which are not in range to fight via Vessel of the Emperor, and thus allow them to enter the fight.

The fact that you can use it when none of the effected units are in combat is likely an unintended edge-case of that coupled with Big FAQ2 mandating that you don't skip phases even if you have no units eligible for them.

Why do you consider alternating activation to still be a thing but not basic selection rules ?
The older AoF was worded that way because it was triggered before your movement phase and not during the fight phase which already has a set of rules to handle close combat, contrary to the movement phase.
You're in the fight phase so you must follow the fight phase rules until your codex say otherwise. So you're able to fight twice (in a row if you charged, alternated if you didn't) but you can't do it if previous requirements "to fight" aren't met.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 10:01:18


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

PuppetSoul wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
"can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.

Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.


The BRB uses the phrase "Can be chosen" to qualify units for being able to fight. They start in "not eligible" by default.

The Passion explicitly says that the effected unit "Can be chosen to fight with twice".

Yes, but they need to be able to be chosen once to be able to be chosen twice. and only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the fight phase. This is how units are chosen for the first time in the fight phase.

If you follow the description on the tin, that unit can be chosen to fight, and then be chosen to fight a second time with the normal rules regarding alternating activations still applying.
and the normal rules about being chosen to fight still applying.

Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the targeting restriction of "must be within an inch of enemy model", but that was removed for the Chapter Approved rework.
This only meant that you could not choose a unit that is not within an inch of enemy model and give them a free pile in move without actually having to fight. Its removal is meaningless though.

Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the wording of "an additional time", thus requiring you to satisfy the rules to fight for the first fight.
again meaningless. it has no bearing on the current rules.

The thought process seems clearly designed to make The Passion splash onto units which are not in range to fight via Vessel of the Emperor, and thus allow them to enter the fight.
Incorrect. because you still need to follow the basic rules as nothing in the new rules says anything about ifnoring the fight phase rules for choosing units to fight with.

The fact that you can use it when none of the effected units are in combat is likely an unintended edge-case of that coupled with Big FAQ2 mandating that you don't skip phases even if you have no units eligible for them.
But you can not use it when none of the effected units are in combat. If you were to try, you would be breaking the fight phase rules. and we should strive to break no rule.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Its basically 2 players saying you can ignore all fight phase rule b.c they said so. They are not showing any rules as to why it ignore the main phases rules. So im done talking about it.

At this point just send the question to the FAQ team, next week the CA faq comes out, make sure its in there.

   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





No, it's two people saying there's a loophole, and two people who say there isn't.

GW might FAQ it. They could also raise the cost of space marines.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Mmmpi wrote:
No, it's two people saying there's a loophole, and two people who say there isn't..


And those saying there is a loophole have no proof of said loophole.

Nothing in the rules posted allow you to ignore the basic Fight phase rules.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Except the proof provided.

Sorry.
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior





Breaking down my understanding




Your condition: Use this act of faith at the beginning of the fight phase. If successful,
Your result: the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.


Your condition: Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit
Your result: can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase


The wording on The Passion seems to imply that you simply do not refer to the Step 1 of the fight phase as your unit has already been chosen after passing the Act of Faith.


Making a call on four or five people discussing does not seem very constructive, I would definitely like to hear more opinions.

18 / 3 / 6 since 6th ed. 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

If they didnt charge, or arent within 1", they cant be chosen to fight. The passion wouldnt work on them. But, i would suggest emailing 40kfaq@gwpl.com.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit that can fight twice in the Fight phase charges one enemy unit and destroys it during their first ‘fight’ in the subsequent Fight phase, and then consolidates into a second enemy unit, can they then attack that unit during their second ‘fight’?

A: The charging unit can only make attacks against the second unit if it also declared a charge against it in its charge phase.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Except the sisters unit never charges. The act just skips the charge and goes to the next step.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

 DeathReaper wrote:
PuppetSoul wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
"can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.

Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.


The BRB uses the phrase "Can be chosen" to qualify units for being able to fight. They start in "not eligible" by default.

The Passion explicitly says that the effected unit "Can be chosen to fight with twice".

Yes, but they need to be able to be chosen once to be able to be chosen twice. and only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the fight phase. This is how units are chosen for the first time in the fight phase.
I think you're off here. "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.

Choose an apple. (1 apple picked)
Choose an apple twice. (1 apple picked twice)
Choose an apple a second time. (1 apple picked assuming it was already picked at some earlier pre-determined time)

All three of those have different meanings.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Utah

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They are not showing any rules as to why it ignore the main phases rules.


It's literally written on the card: You can choose this unit to fight with twice.

The argument against that is "no you can't choose the unit becuase..."

And then I point at the stratagem card and put a sharpie line under YOU CAN CHOOSE THIS UNIT.

And the argument against continues to be "no you can't".

Fifty sharpie lines under YOU CAN later...
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.

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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.

"This is YMDC. This thread was made specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion."

edited for intent.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 19:45:34


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Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior





RAW it is giving you permission to chose the unit after passing the act of faith.

Its not asking you to refer to the fight phase and look at other details, its simply telling you that the unit can be chosen twice. Once a unit has been chosen, you move to phase 2.


Trying to assess the intention behind the rule does not help the conversation. In the end we might all be wrong and they intended something else completely or a ruling could be made either way.






18 / 3 / 6 since 6th ed. 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Other rules dont disappear just because one rule says you can do something. You cant play a stratagem which gives +1 to hit rolls on an embarked unit, because a unit inside a transport cannot be affected in any way (unless the stratagem says it can be played on embarked units). I cant play only in death does duty end when my character which already fought in the fight phase was killed by my opponent. No unit may be chosen to fight more than once in each fight phase.
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

 p5freak wrote:
I cant play only in death does duty end when my character which already fought in the fight phase was killed by my opponent. No unit may be chosen to fight more than once in each fight phase.

I'm pretty sure you can do exactly that.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
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Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 pretre wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.

This is YMDC, it's specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion.


Not true. Yet again, HYWPI is a valid topic of conversation. The only thing you shouldn’t do is argue RAW against HYWPI as it doesn’t achieve anything.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

 JohnnyHell wrote:
 pretre wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.

This is YMDC, it's specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion.


Not true. Yet again, HYWPI is a valid topic of conversation. The only thing you shouldn’t do is argue RAW against HYWPI as it doesn’t achieve anything.

Which is, what I was getting at. I should have said the following instead.
"This is YMDC. This thread was made specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion."

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Mmmpi wrote:
Except the proof provided.

Sorry.


There has been no such proof though.

Sorry.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




We shouldn't need GW to spell out everything for us just because they didn't copy/paste the whole fighting rules into a special rule paragraph.
We're in the fight phase, the phase where you can chose a unit ONCE to fight (if it meets certain conditions).
And we have an AoF that says you can chose it TWICE.
That's it. Note, they didn't even write "can fight twice", they specifically used "chose", which refers exactly to the fight phase and the unit order of fighting selection process.

Since the argument for it is "hey ! it's not written that it has to be a valid choice ! wink wink" then you could argue it isn't written either that you actually can bypass the selection process.
If it's not written that you override the standard rules, assume they are in effect. And the only part referring to the standard rules is the amount of time you can chose the unit. Thus, nothing else should change.

 deviantduck wrote:
I think you're off here. "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.

It's exactly the other way around because they elected to use the word "chose". It's obvious it refers to the selection process of the fight phase where they also state you can CHOSE a unit once.
If they had said "if the aof is successful, you can immediately FIGHT twice", there wouldn't be any discussion. You would pick your unit and fight twice. That's not what they said though.

For once that their wording is consistent, we still manage to try to rip it apart

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 22:19:28


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Surrey, BC - Canada

 DeathReaper wrote:
"can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.

Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.


I am finding myself in this camp. Keeps things straightforward.

My two cents,

CB

   
 
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