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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






How do?

This has been rattling around in my brain forever. Well, since I first encountered GSC waaaay back when Genestealer was released.

See, we know the basics.

Patriarch, Gen 1, Gen 2 (Acolye), Gen 3, Gen 4 (Neophyte and Magus), then back to Purestrains. Barring another Patriarch (rare, but not unheard of), the cycle repeats until the Day of Ascension, when one way or another everyone gets ded.

But what about the nitty gritty? See, Acolyte generations are pretty Spikey when full grown. And we know that without modern medicine, childbirth isn’t exactly safe at the best of times. Well, not for the mother. Imagine someone trying to pop out a three limbed child, covered in Chitin and with Claws and that. That’s got to be terminal, right?

Well, I say thee nay. See, in the natural world, chitin isn’t hard at first. It needs to be exposed to the air to do that. So I postulate the same is true of Hybrids. Indeed, it’s not entirely impossible that the chitin itself doesn’t develop until much later. The actual child may be quite fleshy and floppy at first. It’s even partially feasible it’s endoskeleton is the same - soft and semi-rubbery at first, to ease birth.

I mean, think about it. From an infiltration point of view, losing the mothers in most cases is simply inefficient, and may even risk discovery. If you need to constantly replace your breeding stock, would that not be a higher risk of being noticed.

So it makes sense for the genetic tweaks to make the birth as safe as possible.

The natural counter point to that of course is that is assumes the birth doesn’t occur in a hospital or other medical facility. Mutations. They tend to be noticed in the 41st Millenium, no?

Which may be an argument that the Genestealer taint isn’t immediately apparent at all. And it’s not until the developmental months that they present themselves. With such inhuman and often accelerated biology, who knows what is and isn’t possible? But it would help escape detection, with the only notable aspect being particularly devoted parents.

   
Made in no
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





How are genestealers created in general, are they all from cults?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




We don't know exactly how being infected affects a women reproductive system or even appearence. There is no official description or artwork of a female genetealer cultist as far as I know. We only see the men.
   
Made in no
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





epronovost wrote:
We don't know exactly how being infected affects a women reproductive system or even appearence. There is no official description or artwork of a female genetealer cultist as far as I know. We only see the men.


Are both parents infected, or just one, and which if so?
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Only takes the one, regardless of Gender.

The implant tweaks the DNA etc.

But Genestealers, so far as we know, are the same across the Hive Fleets. So their point of origin is either pure bio-construct, or possibly a useful species assimilated in with relatively minor tweaking?

That is of course assuming that what we now recognise as Genestealers came with the Hive Fleets, and aren’t a particularly useless lifeform from our Galaxy that proved genetically useful.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




torblind wrote:
epronovost wrote:
We don't know exactly how being infected affects a women reproductive system or even appearence. There is no official description or artwork of a female genetealer cultist as far as I know. We only see the men.


Are both parents infected, or just one, and which if so?


From what I read, it's both.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






That’s not my own understanding. Which of course, doesn’t mean that I’m correct.

However. Both are feasible when you consider what it is to be a Brood Brother.

Once implanted, the host becomes utterly loyal to the nascent Patriarch. So it may be that if both are needed, it’s easily achieved, as they’ll bring their paramour to the Purestrain for a very special snog. From there, the baby making commences.

It’s hard to say whether a Patriarch strikes jackpot by infecting a male or female. At least by modem soceital standards,

Women? To find a further victim, can walk into a bar and ask ‘who wants it’, and almost certainly find a victim (I am not slut shaming here. That is a flaw of men in society, not women). Of course, she can only have so many kids in a given time period. Provided there’s no enhanced gestation period, that’s a bit of a slow start. Male? Well, the whole ‘who wants it’ thing? Not so effective. But, money can procure Ladies Of Negotiable Affection, and he can can the brood off to a quicker start there and then.

Again, this is not some incel nonsense. We’re talking about societal norms as they stand, not pointing fingers.

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Vigilus Defiant offers a lot of insight into this.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

Probate be both eventually anyway.

Consider the 'classic' setup: Sole Survivor of Mysterious Incident on local small trading vessel is found. Says their spacer days are over now, they want to settle dirtside and start a family. Like you, doc, without meaning to be too derogatory, I doubt that their standards (for either sex) will be particularly high in this case.

Soon after there's a disturbance in a warehouse and a cargo crate is found broken 'into'. Nothing missing is ever identified.

In any case, the other parent will soon be on board, either infected or psychically oppressed, and iirc it was often hinted that the family would often be somewhat isolationist anyway, either outbackers or claiming a weird religious tenet.

Then a few friends join in. Rinse and repeat.

Must confess I never really thought about the biology but your ideas sound ateast plausible.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Vigilus Defiant offers a lot of insight into this.


Please elaborate.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Yeah, I’ve got Vigilus Defiant. But I’m not sure what clarity it offers?

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah, I’ve got Vigilus Defiant. But I’m not sure what clarity it offers?

Discusses how there are entire 'nations' of Cultists and yet that doesn't tell you about any clarity?
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Oh that’s merely the extent of a healthy Cult. It doesn’t tell us owt about the birth process etc!

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




The big problem of reproduction for genestealer is that they probably need to capture women and infect them to use them to reproduce safely. If an infected male was to reproduce, he could quickly do it simply by getting in a brothel for example, but the children and maybe even the women in question would most likely be killed as the children would be recognised as mutants at the moment of their birth. Most women in Imperial world probably give birth in hospitals, clinics or at the very least with the help of a wise women and/or a priest. These people will probably kill the mutant as soon as they see it as its the law in most Imperial planets. It's probably wiser and much more efficient to get both gender as quickly as possible. Then when you have a good number of infected of both genders, they can start breeding. Thus begin the cycle of reproduction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 18:32:54


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Well, there at least a suggestion that the mother of the child becomes a Brood Sister simply as a result of the pregnancy. And when you consider the nature of pregnancy actually stands to reason.

Perhaps a dude is indeed the jackpot?

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, there at least a suggestion that the mother of the child becomes a Brood Sister simply as a result of the pregnancy. And when you consider the nature of pregnancy actually stands to reason.

Perhaps a dude is indeed the jackpot?


If that's the case and it indeed would make sense and be very practical you want a dude who just got his paycheck and knows where to find hookers and you will have an army in no time.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






At the ‘that’s bloody awful’ end of the spectrum, a dude doesn’t actually need money or consent?

I make no excuse for such heinous acts. Nor do I make light of them. Indeed, it only adds to the horror of the situation.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
At the ‘that’s bloody awful’ end of the spectrum, a dude doesn’t actually need money or consent?

I make no excuse for such heinous acts. Nor do I make light of them. Indeed, it only adds to the horror of the situation.


Well, strictly speaking neither does a woman. Rape is an atrocious strategy though. It's not very effective and it will attract the attention of law enforcement. You don't want them investigating a string of rape that leads to the victim disapeering shortly after the event in strange circomstances. That's the sort of thing that attracts the attention of Arbites and Inquisition alike. A cult in its infancy is very vulnerable. You are way better going for cheap, desperate prostitutes or hitting the dance floor.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Typically I'll side with people considering propriety, but there isn't really a way to do that and discuss how the genestealer cult functions.

Read over the recent cult novels and just started the death watch omnibus the other day. There's a lot of hints there, mostly leaning towards mind control and biological freakishness. That said, not a lot to do about spoliers, so rest is in the tag and you open it at your own risk.

Spoiler:
Fun bit from deathwatch that's scary, inquisition agent observes women giving birth to hybrid children and tracking the time of the pregnancy puts it around three months, to produce oddly inhuman, silent and unemotive children.

Cult of the spiral dawn has some freaky gak, opens with the sisters convent under assault, patriarch mentally reaches out and touches a sister who de-activates the key defenses for him and his boys. Her eyes are noted, while she's never seen again there's two or three instances of those kinds of eyes being noted on GSC characters or being oddly common through the freakish end of the population. Further you have a load of general we want to embrace this totally legitimate cult of the emperor pilgrims most of whom are quickly reduced to breeding stock or combat fodder, with one in particular being noted as being given to an iconward as a wife if I remember correctly.

Over in older fiction, there's at least one cain reference to a female hybrid who'd be classified as an acolyte these days being rather attractive if not for the third arm she'd kept hidden while working in the brothel, after he was investigating a bunch of implanted soldiers and kicks off a GSC uprising. Plenty of details of genestealers taking advantage of drunk, isolated or just stupid people and dragging them off an implanting them in those situations too. Particularly guard who could then return to their unit and go spread the cult across the stars by hitting brothels from time to time if someone doesn't know what to look for and shoot them.

All the classic lone genestealer infiltrators too, one guy on a ship can wreak havoc since all he really needs to do is get someone alone for a couple minutes, catch and release.

And frankly the codex puts it as nicely as humanly possible in pointing out that the genestealer implant drives parents to embrace their freakish children and care for them in the same way it disrupts their immediate memories. From there it's a matter of one generation after the other sorting themselves out as the codex details.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 20:52:58


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

Also, I don't know if it is or will remain the case, but older fluff had it that Cults were extremely model citizens (perhaps suspiciously so!). They emphasised worship of the ... well, AN Emperor, of family ties and just keeping your head down, fitting in and getting on with your day.

Family, in fact, was the word that kept recurring in those older segments (obviously a bit of a riff on mafia/hillbilly and ... well, weird religious cult clichés!), so anything overtly rapey is probably out - apart from the connotations of the actual infection process of course.

Edit - in fact, I'm not even sure if using prostitutes would be such a 'mother lode' as it might seem. It would actually increase the risk of detection, which is obviously a bad thing for the Cult - at least in the early stages. Later on, perhaps, when large numbers of prostitutes 'getting religion' and leaving the profession as the the Cult's influence becomes more overt and 'official' is less suspicious.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 22:53:57


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Has anything been said in the modern background about how many hybrids a brood couple can produce? IIRC in the old RT era fluff only the first born was a hybrid with any younger siblings being regular humans. But there was no mention if this applied to both parents or only the mother.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
At the ‘that’s bloody awful’ end of the spectrum, a dude doesn’t actually need money or consent?

I make no excuse for such heinous acts. Nor do I make light of them. Indeed, it only adds to the horror of the situation.


Yup, GW would never go there in any of there background, but the start of a GSC could get super dark. Even without a purestrain Stealer, a place away from prying eyes and a soundproof basement are really all a male cultist would need to get started. Assuming he can infect multiple women, once the victim becomes pregnant and the hybrid child starts working its mind mojo on the mother he can look for more "converts"*shudder*

Although If a purestrain Stealer is in play I think a brothel run by the GSC would be a good way to get a crop of hybrids quickly and get access to useful male recruits.


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




A GSC tends to first spread in the poorer socioeconomic strata of Imperial society because Imperial government control often does not extend that far down. In a hive, the lower classes are beyond the control of the planetary governor and the governor probably does not care beyond that the required tithes keep flowing. Despite propaganda about being a universal police state, other sources like Necromunda explicitly portray a ruling class that simply does not care about the unwashed masses, not even enough to really police them.

The neglected poor probably don't get much in the way of healthcare and probably don't all universally give birth in hospitals so deaths or mutations are likely to be missed. GSC tend to keep a low profile at first and appear to be docile productive sheeple, as well as also often taking the front of charitable organizations so they get a cloak of respectability even from uninfected people. If the charity is doing apparent good for the community and reducing unrest without any overt heresy, there is less incentive for authorities to crack down.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/29 23:58:08


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I’m not sure insertion at the bottom of society is entirely desirable either. Whilst you can certainly expand the brood quickly, and in privacy, it make it far harder to get up the social ladder, and thus into positions of power and influence.

Plus, those invading Space Hulks etc are likely from mid-Hive. Those with sufficient resources to maintain a space ship and crew. I’m also guessing the entire crew would be compromised on the journey back. That’s a fairly decent start, as they can potentially go their separate ways. Though again, I think it’s open to debate whether that’s more desirable than keeping the brood together?

   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

It doesn't have to be both. When the hybrid bambino pops out it enraptures both parents if they aren't already until the thrall of the patriarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you read the prelude to the jaq draco inquisitor novel it sort of explains that once there are a few brood siblings, they start creches and baby breeding centres where I assume they just pop out freakish babies left and right

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/30 15:24:34


Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not sure insertion at the bottom of society is entirely desirable either. Whilst you can certainly expand the brood quickly, and in privacy, it make it far harder to get up the social ladder, and thus into positions of power and influence.

Plus, those invading Space Hulks etc are likely from mid-Hive. Those with sufficient resources to maintain a space ship and crew. I’m also guessing the entire crew would be compromised on the journey back. That’s a fairly decent start, as they can potentially go their separate ways. Though again, I think it’s open to debate whether that’s more desirable than keeping the brood together?


Starting in the lower quarter gives you access to the higher ones through servants. All rich nobles will have an extensive staff composed of poor people. Idealy, if you get a pretty man or woman of low extraction and manage to get them into service of a noble (a rather easy task), you just managed to stick your claws into that noble household and can infect the entire family and the rest of hte servants which themselves will quickly come into contact of other nobles.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

What exactly is the question?

   
Made in gb
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





epronovost wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not sure insertion at the bottom of society is entirely desirable either. Whilst you can certainly expand the brood quickly, and in privacy, it make it far harder to get up the social ladder, and thus into positions of power and influence.

Plus, those invading Space Hulks etc are likely from mid-Hive. Those with sufficient resources to maintain a space ship and crew. I’m also guessing the entire crew would be compromised on the journey back. That’s a fairly decent start, as they can potentially go their separate ways. Though again, I think it’s open to debate whether that’s more desirable than keeping the brood together?


Starting in the lower quarter gives you access to the higher ones through servants. All rich nobles will have an extensive staff composed of poor people. Idealy, if you get a pretty man or woman of low extraction and manage to get them into service of a noble (a rather easy task), you just managed to stick your claws into that noble household and can infect the entire family and the rest of hte servants which themselves will quickly come into contact of other nobles.


Yup and all you need is a second or first generation's blood to do it. Don't even need the genestealers.
   
Made in ca
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Hamilton, ON

You don't have to be a female to be slut-shamed.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with promiscuity.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,765pts painted (updated 06/05/20)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 29/12/19, ep10 - And All That Could Have Been)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 02/02/2020)

All 'crimes' should be treasured if they bring you pleasure somehow. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Has mostly been covered now, but yeah only one parent needs to be in cult for the child to be ‘infected’
If it is the male, once his ‘DNA’ is with the woman, it would not only affect the child, but the mother too.

On the birth itself, I don’t see why it would kill the mother, as the body adapts to pregnancy, so presumably this kind of pregnancy it would affect it slightly differently to accommodate the shape of the child etc
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

For some further reading, Elucidium (from the 'What Price Victory' anthology) and The Greater Evil are both good (although Elucidium is a bit dated now).
   
 
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