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Hello folks,

I have jumped on board the Primaris = Astartes train (though where are my heavy / special weapons within a standard squad?!?).

Despite this, I still want to make use of my old marine models in Kill Team. Given that these models are the same size as humans, I decided to make them Brotherhood Warriors of The Auretian Technocracy. My issue is that the Space Marine list has certain rules that do not work for standard humans, namely Transhuman Physiology and They Shall Know No Fear. How much cheaper should Tactical & Scout marines be if one removes these abilities? 1 or 2 points?

I am ok with leaving them at S4/T4, partly because I don't care with altering the list so heavily that it becomes a major reworking of this list.

Thanks for the responses!

That‘s a nice idea.

How about leaving the rules as they are just renaming them.

The Transhuman Physiology could be something like „Faith will sustain me“ or „He who is of the faith knoweth no pain.“

They shall know no Fear could be „Faith overcomes all“ or „He who is of the faith knoweth no fear.“

This would solve the problems of points cost and acceptance by players nicely.

I suppose. An original STC might have provided improvements that would replicqte those abilities. They did hold out against Horus for 10 months afterall.

I agree with simply using the rules as they are with your different models. That's a much less slippery proposition than trying to make up your own faction out of one that already exists.

Well, though I appreciate the responses, I would like some opinions on the specific question I posed to the group.

Certainly, I will not be surprising anyone by pulling out my home-brewed rules in a game of matched play. I would get my opponent’s consent.

So, I think making rules that reflect the fluff are worth doing. For example, perhaps 1 pt reduction is too much for these 2 abilities. If so, a minor(?) negative ability in conjunction with the reduction is in order; something like - Cumbersome: humans wearing power armor are not as mobile as an Astartes because humans lack the Black Carapace, thus -1 to all advance and charge rolls (to a min. of 1).

Keeping all the other stats the same, transhuman physiology and atsknf is worth at least a point, maybe two. Fielding MEQ for 10 points base is pretty criminally cheap though. Their statblock alone is just good.

Try digging up the good home brewed sisters of battle kt rules, might be a better balance for the humans in power armor stat line and reflected cost.

Will do, thanks. But it would be 11pts, not 10 for an MEQ statline. Scouts would drop to 9.

callidusx3 wrote:
For example, perhaps 1 pt reduction is too much for these 2 abilities.

How much kill team have you played? Transhuman physiology combined with death denied is completely brilliant.

ATKNF isn't as powerful given the fairly high leadership combined with low model count but it still makes a broken team something that just doesn't happen to Marines.

They are absolutely worth more than a point.

You should get a bunch of games under your belt using the standard rules. Then you have a much better perspective on any changes.

I played through a full campaign (which I won with my Tallarn, for what that's worth). The 2 marine and 1 deathwatch players did quite poorly in our ork & guard-heavy meta (only one guard player brought more than 4 plasmas; most brought 2-4), so I have not rated these marine abilities that highly.

Nonetheless, I understand my experience is but a drop in the bucket, which is why I posted this question to a wider audience; and appreciate your insight Scott.

I lean toward Serling's assessment that an MEQ stat line at 10pts is something to be very cautious about.

I don't think too highly of either Transhuman Physiology and They Shall Know No Fear. I figure if Kill Team used a point-buy system where players had the choice to spend or not spend even 1 point, they wouldn't unless they had points they couldn't spend anywhere else.

So I would say that 1 point is what both of them combined are worth tops. Probably less that even, like 0.5 points for both, but there isn't such a thing as 0.5 points. So, again 1 point.

Thanks Saturmorn! Since you think those 2 abilities are less than 1 pt, do you think that the negative option I offered (to slow down these non-Astartes power armored humans) is appropriate to make up the difference?

I suppose that a slower move might make up the difference. Although, since Kill Team standard board area isn't that big and often has plenty of LOS blocking terrain, I haven't seen the slower movement of Necrons really hurt them too much. I haven't played Necrons enough to know just yet.

I am coming from the CSM direction where most of their special abilities are pretty situational and they don't get a discount themselves. Couple that with just how valuable kill team list points are, I am cautious to make any kind of MEQ a little cheaper. Maybe in a Commanders game with 200 points where it can actually be tough for some kill teams to spend all their points, I wouldn't see it as much of an issue.

However, I think dropping Trans Phsy and They Shall Know No Rules along with a slower movement is a good place to start as a base line for a point cheaper. I would say play a few games that way along with a few as standard Astartes rules. Get your opponent's input and see if it feels about right or the point savings does favor your custom units over standard space marines.

I would also suggest always leaning conservative with bonuses for custom units. Because they always have the unwritten special ability of being rare so your opponents might not consider said units when strategizing their kill team. Which I think is worth a 1 point itself.

callidusx3 wrote:
I played through a full campaign (which I won with my Tallarn, for what that's worth). The 2 marine and 1 deathwatch players did quite poorly in our ork & guard-heavy meta (only one guard player brought more than 4 plasmas; most brought 2-4), so I have not rated these marine abilities that highly.

Nonetheless, I understand my experience is but a drop in the bucket, which is why I posted this question to a wider audience; and appreciate your insight Scott.

I lean toward Serling's assessment that an MEQ stat line at 10pts is something to be very cautious about.

Were your marine players using the tactics from the SM team starter? It is the combination of TH with DD that is especially good. DW do not get this.

Marines aren't a great team though - this is the usual marine problem of paying for stats that they don't have the equipment to use properly and generally mediocre equipment in KT.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Were your marine players using the tactics from the SM team starter? It is the combination of TH with DD that is especially good. DW do not get this.

Marines aren't a great team though - this is the usual marine problem of paying for stats that they don't have the equipment to use properly and generally mediocre equipment in KT.

In the campaign, only the rulebook faction tactics were permitted (to maintain a level playing field for the teams without expanded tactics). All killzone tactics were used.

Thanks for your input.