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2019/01/07 00:09:09
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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But there are still some concerns that I have. First, the knights are a 100% psychic army, but only have 6 spells to choose from, hurting their scaleability.
My solution would be to edit the "Brotherhood of Psykers" rule to say that if your army is Battle-forged, you can cast all powers twice during the psychic phase (do you like this idea?).
Second, the Grey Knights are an elite army, meaning they are starved for command points.
What I would do is reduce their buff stratagems like Heed the Prognosticars, Psychic Onslaught, and Psybolt Ammunition to 1 CP (do you like this idea?).
I'm sure there are other ideas out there. Let me know what you think!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 03:52:33
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2019/01/07 00:14:45
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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What we need is for everyone to lose Baby Smite, and have squad specific Powers they can all cast like last edition, and then rework the Santic table entirely. Yeah it's cool a Dread can cast Astral Aim on itself, but it seems like something all Purgator squads should do in the first place.
This also alleviates the issue of the units being samey, and starts giving defined roles to everyone. Automatically Appended Next Post: Then the Generic HQ dudes outside the Lirbarian can just have a somewhat limited Smite but have more access to chances to cast powers. Librarians get regular Smite. The world is happy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/07 00:15:50
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2019/01/07 09:09:01
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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In my opinion there is 4 things that needs to be tackled:
1) CP and / or stratagem points. You proposal seems reasonable in this sense. Another option worth considering it could be access to CP generation.
2) Psychic power limitations in matched games. Either your proposal or Slayer-Fan123 ones seems reasonable in this sense. Personally I think that Slayer-Fan123 is more fun to play as it gives more personality to each unit, but in the other hand it implies to have bigger changes. Which could be dangerous in terms of balancing. If you'll excuse me, I will also add to the discussion that MW are not as powerful nowadays as almost every army have they own easy access to FNP, most of the time wide army, for pennies.
3) Broken units like purifiers and crowe smite need to be completely rework. If baby smite is almost useless then the 3" smite range is totally useless. When you play against a player that knows how to use screen half good you cannot do anything. Imao it would need or either to increase the range to 6", and / or to give them +1 attack, and / or make the D6 MW smite to happens at the beginning of the combat phase, and / or to leave them as they are but make their smite something capable to wipe out whole chaff squats or threaten big targets or provide a real thread to big target. D6 MW is not either of those. I exposed here ( https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/767942.page#10262974) the difficulties to pull a 3"smite and how pathetic is the D6 MW for the difficulties that it involve related to make it happen.
4) Overall fix terminators and power armour units. This is a known issue that goes beyond GK and other armies are suffering. There are recent whole threads related to that in dakka dakka. I'll refeer to them:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/759631.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/768293.page
As always I might be wrong. So feel free to correct me.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/07 09:21:12
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2019/01/07 15:50:10
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Stalwart Space Marine
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One option is to do like 1kSons do and give them three psychic disciplines to choose from. At least then you'd get some variety and, hopefully, something that would get them into combat reliably.
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2019/01/07 16:45:34
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I would change the brotherhood of psykers rule to do a flat number of wounds based on the numbers of models in the unit. It represents the combined psychic ability of the brotherhood. And killing most of a unt cripples it as it should.
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2019/01/07 19:53:42
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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fresus wrote:I would change the brotherhood of psykers rule to do a flat number of wounds based on the numbers of models in the unit. It represents the combined psychic ability of the brotherhood. And killing most of a unt cripples it as it should.
I really like this idea.
Take babysmite away from the characters, because....duh. A GK libby should not be half as good at smiting as an Ultramarines libby.
Rework all current babysmite characters with:
If the unit has 1-4 models, smite does 1 damage.
If the unit has 5-9 models, Smite does 2 damage.
If the unit has 10+ models, Smite does 3 damage.
Beyond that to make them not boring, I would either allow GK to cast any powers they have as many times as they want (ignore Psychic Focus entirely) or do as suggested and add a second discipline that only the small squads get. Plus, give librarians Librarius, to make them unique from the other HQs, just like Tsons DP's get the Tzeentch Daemon discipline. 18 powers works pretty good for a 2k points army of tsons.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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2019/01/14 12:54:09
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
Somerdale, NJ, USA
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the_scotsman wrote:fresus wrote:I would change the brotherhood of psykers rule to do a flat number of wounds based on the numbers of models in the unit. It represents the combined psychic ability of the brotherhood. And killing most of a unt cripples it as it should.
I really like this idea.
Take babysmite away from the characters, because....duh. A GK libby should not be half as good at smiting as an Ultramarines libby.
Rework all current babysmite characters with:
If the unit has 1-4 models, smite does 1 damage.
If the unit has 5-9 models, Smite does 2 damage.
If the unit has 10+ models, Smite does 3 damage.
Beyond that to make them not boring, I would either allow GK to cast any powers they have as many times as they want (ignore Psychic Focus entirely) or do as suggested and add a second discipline that only the small squads get. Plus, give librarians Librarius, to make them unique from the other HQs, just like Tsons DP's get the Tzeentch Daemon discipline. 18 powers works pretty good for a 2k points army of tsons.
I'm all in on this idea; fluffy and it actually makes sense...so GW will never implement it...
And in the fluff GK Librarians are supposed to be exemplars of psychic might in a fully psychic army, no reason they shouldn't have access to additional powers and/or regular smite.
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"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."
"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."
- 8k /// - 5k /// - 5k /// - 6k /// - 6k /// - 4k /// - 4k /// Cust - 3k |
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2019/01/21 02:54:24
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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The smites idea is nice, but the repeat casting should not be a thing.
To easy to break powers when you can cast them over and over. Purge soul is pretty bad (though TS pack a few even worse spells), but multi casting even hammerhand is nasty, and GoI would outright break stuff.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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2019/01/27 22:35:37
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Fresh-Faced New User
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grey knights had a whopping 30~% WINRATE on tournaments as a primary army
if thats not a sign they need WAY BETTER PSYCHIC abilities and better rules regarding deep strike (since every model is priced point wise for being able to do so)
visit
40kstats.com to see where i get my stats from
if an army/tactic has low playrate it means it should have a higher then normal (50~%) winrate to make sense. balance wise its the "attrition of the bad players" what that means is said army/tactic only works in the hands of specialists players
who know what they are doing and manage to win. most players that have a simple strategy will gravitate towards armies such as astra militarum which gives that army a high playrate and decent winrate of 53% (balance wise this is actually a
good sign that this army is reasonably balanced in the big scheme of things)
the fact that GK are super low play rate and have ONLY a 30% winrate should make it perfectly clear
they need massive buffs
start of with getting rid of baby smite
give all the units with range 3 smite a flat 6 mortal wounds (they should have a tactical purpose that makes the enemy player think twice about letting them get close just like genestealers or mortarion for example)
they don't suffer from multiple casts with ANY ability this should be obvious whats the point of a full psyker army if you cant actually use 80% of the psycker capacity your army has?
IF ANY ABILITY IS PROBLEMATIC that ability should be looked at and dealt with. don't smash the legs of an army just because you gave them the wrong toy.
give them a bigger list of things to choose from this needs to be at least 18-21 different abilities with various purposes.
allow for better deep strike rules regarding Grey knights. last time i checked each grey knight has the deep strike rule and with the beta changes half of that power got stripped away.
just so you know I NEVER played grey knights but the pathetic state that they are in is ludicrous
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/27 22:39:56
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2019/03/29 23:08:31
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772179.page
Now that we have confirmation that GK are the worst faction, there must be something GW can do to make them competitive.
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2019/03/30 02:42:54
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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I agree with the +1 MW to smite for more models in the unit.
GK characters should keep the baby smite but gain access to better powers. This is because smite will always be cast on a 5 for them. I'd mabey make it so that they only perils on double 1's though since they cant super smite.
GK's need a total of 12 powers to pick from, but they should get a Buff/Debuff option like warlocks get.
They should be priced like Vets with an additional 8 points per squad for the Brootherhood of psychers rule.
Weapons will need to be repointed, but can be discounted SM prices since the models don't get as many attacks and fluffwise have the best gear.
They should also get a 6+ FNP againgst mortal wounds in the psychic phase like custodes get.
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2019/03/30 03:46:42
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Fixture of Dakka
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Eihnlazer wrote:I agree with the +1 MW to smite for more models in the unit.
GK characters should keep the baby smite but gain access to better powers. This is because smite will always be cast on a 5 for them. I'd mabey make it so that they only perils on double 1's though since they cant super smite.
GK's need a total of 12 powers to pick from, but they should get a Buff/Debuff option like warlocks get.
They should be priced like Vets with an additional 8 points per squad for the Brootherhood of psychers rule.
Weapons will need to be repointed, but can be discounted SM prices since the models don't get as many attacks and fluffwise have the best gear.
They should also get a 6+ FNP againgst mortal wounds in the psychic phase like custodes get.
I politely disagree with pretty much all of that. ^_^;
Giving the characters normal smite instead of baby smite would up the damage output of the army as a whole and make a certain amount of fluff sense. The characters are the proven BAMFs that have earned the right to drink a little deeper from the warp when throwing holy fire around. Making baby smite a thing for brotherhood of psykers but also making them immune/resistant to perils feels like the squad of newbies need to play it safe and work together while the vets can let loose.
Discounting the prices on gear for fluff reasons is a dangerous road. In fluff, my kabal is ancient and incredibly rich, so I should be able to give every kabalite in the army a blaster at a discounted rate, right? After all, they've had all the time and money they need to stockpile tons of powerful guns. Giving a monofaction army discounted gear theoretically makes a little sense because you're basically just offsetting the inherent disadvantages to board presence and action economy created by playing with a small number of units. But 8th edition, especially where imperial armies are concerned, cannot bank on you playing monofaction. It's the army point equivalent of the loyal 32 CP battery for knights problem. So while I probably sound like a jerk right now, I stand by the idea that weapons and models should cost what they're worth rather than being discounted below their calculated value. All that said, you could probably just make everything a little cheaper than it is in general under the premise that it's all generally overpriced anyway.
6+ FNP versus mortal wounds in the psychic phase is fluffy, but probably doesn't address the army's main issues. Plus, they already have a way to avoid harm in the psychic phase: being able to deny with every unit (except maybe some of the vehicles?) in the army.
Possibly derailing side tangent: What would GK as a whole look like if you gave all of the infantry primaris statlines?
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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2019/03/30 09:32:37
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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Primaris are all just +1 wound and attack.
The other stats are from their armor (such as Gravis Armor and Phobos Armor).
If your talking about giving grey knights all +1 wound and attack with no other changes, Strikes become almost too good. With their speed, people would take 3 units of 10 and have 60 power armor wounds in their face for half of a game, meaning whatever long range firepower grey knights could ally in would be able to fire for free basically.
Not particularly interested in seeing Grey knights if they are just gonna be a wall in front of a Castellan.
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2019/03/30 11:02:39
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Stratagems like psybolt ammunition and psychic onslaught should have drop to 1CP a long time ago.
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2019/03/30 14:41:45
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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There are a number of changes that I've had in mind for Grey knights.
Tbh, I'd just make psybolt ammo standard instead of a stratagem. +1 Strength and AP-1 is very comparable to DW SIA. DW can pick their ammo to be potentially better than psybolt, which would just be a strong all around shot.
I also support the idea of giving all marines an additional attack. Couple that with the fact that all grey knights should be veterans anyway, you would be looking at at least 3 attacks base per model.
I've also seen someone suggest that their Aegis armor give them -1 to hit. If GW cleans up the interaction between rerolls and negative hit modifiers (also make 6's autohit). I wouldn't mind seeing this rule either.
There are also some overall game changes that I think would be a net benefit for Grey knights.
I want most of the Cites of Death rules to become standard. Close Combat armies seem to come out ahead with these rules because they make it easier to get into combat before being blasted off the field.
I also want a couple of minor changes to CP. I think Vanguard, Spearhead, and outrider detachments should get 3 CP each. I would also drop the battle forge bonus and instead give 3 CP for and army with keywords more specific than Imperium, chaos, etc.
All of these changes along with a tweak to their psychic powers, would make them quite powerful.
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2019/03/30 18:07:32
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Chris521 wrote:
Tbh, I'd just make psybolt ammo standard instead of a stratagem. +1 Strength and AP-1 is very comparable to DW SIA. DW can pick their ammo to be potentially better than psybolt, which would just be a strong all around shot.
SIA is pretty much free which is total bs. Wounding on 2+ for all infantry is utterly broken, and they only pay like, what, 1 point for it?
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2019/03/30 21:23:14
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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_SeeD_ wrote: Chris521 wrote:
Tbh, I'd just make psybolt ammo standard instead of a stratagem. +1 Strength and AP-1 is very comparable to DW SIA. DW can pick their ammo to be potentially better than psybolt, which would just be a strong all around shot.
SIA is pretty much free which is total bs. Wounding on 2+ for all infantry is utterly broken, and they only pay like, what, 1 point for it?
Special Ammo is to make up for the crap Chapter Tactic equivalent and you know that.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2019/03/30 22:28:14
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: _SeeD_ wrote: Chris521 wrote:
Tbh, I'd just make psybolt ammo standard instead of a stratagem. +1 Strength and AP-1 is very comparable to DW SIA. DW can pick their ammo to be potentially better than psybolt, which would just be a strong all around shot.
SIA is pretty much free which is total bs. Wounding on 2+ for all infantry is utterly broken, and they only pay like, what, 1 point for it?
Special Ammo is to make up for the crap Chapter Tactic equivalent and you know that.
I don't think I can agree here. They get to reroll 1s to wound to a specific battlefield role. Yes it's not as shiny as other faction's, but SIA is a bit much. 2s to wound, and Ap -1/-2 whenever you want it. Most of the time, things like that are made as stratagems. Just look at the GK. Theirs costs TWO CP. Good God.
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2019/03/30 23:44:05
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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_SeeD_ wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: _SeeD_ wrote: Chris521 wrote:
Tbh, I'd just make psybolt ammo standard instead of a stratagem. +1 Strength and AP-1 is very comparable to DW SIA. DW can pick their ammo to be potentially better than psybolt, which would just be a strong all around shot.
SIA is pretty much free which is total bs. Wounding on 2+ for all infantry is utterly broken, and they only pay like, what, 1 point for it?
Special Ammo is to make up for the crap Chapter Tactic equivalent and you know that.
I don't think I can agree here. They get to reroll 1s to wound to a specific battlefield role. Yes it's not as shiny as other faction's, but SIA is a bit much. 2s to wound, and Ap -1/-2 whenever you want it. Most of the time, things like that are made as stratagems. Just look at the GK. Theirs costs TWO CP. Good God.
If Reroll 1 to Wound vs Particular FOS was a Chapter Tactic in the main codex, it would be taken less than even White Scars and Salamanders. I guarantee it.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2019/03/31 00:03:31
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Most people acknowledge that 2 CP was way too much, and I personally just made a suggestion to make it free. So I'm not sure why you need to complain about Deathwatch after reading a list of suggestions that would give massive buffs to Grey knights.
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2019/03/31 00:23:29
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Chris521 wrote:Most people acknowledge that 2 CP was way too much, and I personally just made a suggestion to make it free.
I'd be pretty happy with 1 CP costs. Unfortunately, changes like that only happen a few times a year.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/03/31 20:20:42
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2019/03/31 21:35:27
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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They should make Psybolt ammo affect 3 different units if they are gonna keep it costing 2CP.
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2019/04/01 02:19:39
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Focused Fire Warrior
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Eihnlazer wrote:They should make Psybolt ammo affect 3 different units if they are gonna keep it costing 2CP.
I like this. 1CP for 1 unit, 2CP for up to 3 units. Works around the one use per phase nature of stratagems and lets the army use it's ability fairly widely but with some choice (which units to use and if it's worth the CP).
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2019/04/01 14:03:06
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I think, like most marines, GK really need melee weapon prices to be split cost. Current cost for characters, squads get them cheaper.
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2019/04/01 17:00:35
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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That's kind of what I was talking about earlier when I said discounted melee weapons.
Yeah they are all force weapons, but on 2 attack models they aren't gonna be doing that much.
Grey knights should be paying a bit less than Custodes do for their spears at the very least.
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2019/04/01 17:40:02
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Why strike squads didn't get a discount in CA 2018 is beyond me. Intercessors got a discount and they have 2 wounds and 2 attacks!
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2019/04/01 18:47:33
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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_SeeD_ wrote:Why strike squads didn't get a discount in CA 2018 is beyond me. Intercessors got a discount and they have 2 wounds and 2 attacks!
FWIW, Strikes could have two attacks and you'd still likely take Falchions.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2019/04/02 16:25:05
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: _SeeD_ wrote:Why strike squads didn't get a discount in CA 2018 is beyond me. Intercessors got a discount and they have 2 wounds and 2 attacks!
FWIW, Strikes could have two attacks and you'd still likely take Falchions.
I think that because strikes can take falchions, their statline won't be changed to 2 attacks. Statline changes would probably go against the "in a good place" stance. Hopefully we can get CP costs lowered within a year or so.
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2019/04/02 16:38:40
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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_SeeD_ wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: _SeeD_ wrote:Why strike squads didn't get a discount in CA 2018 is beyond me. Intercessors got a discount and they have 2 wounds and 2 attacks!
FWIW, Strikes could have two attacks and you'd still likely take Falchions.
I think that because strikes can take falchions, their statline won't be changed to 2 attacks. Statline changes would probably go against the "in a good place" stance. Hopefully we can get CP costs lowered within a year or so.
I think a second attack and AP-1 nerf to Falchions would go a long way to make people look at the other options.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2019/04/03 06:06:16
Subject: Grey Knights Got Some Love
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:What we need is for everyone to lose Baby Smite, and have squad specific Powers they can all cast like last edition, and then rework the Santic table entirely. Yeah it's cool a Dread can cast Astral Aim on itself, but it seems like something all Purgator squads should do in the first place.
This also alleviates the issue of the units being samey, and starts giving defined roles to everyone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then the Generic HQ dudes outside the Lirbarian can just have a somewhat limited Smite but have more access to chances to cast powers. Librarians get regular Smite. The world is happy.
I agree, go with bespoke squad powers instead of actual psyker abilities. then let sanatic exist for actual psykers (so librarians can suddenly employ all the powers on differant units thus allowing some flex) and a second disipline, maybe even just the Librarius disipline
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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