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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Obviously I have lots of thoughts about how to improve the game, and all those thoughts are scattered everywhere. As such, to appear slightly more coherent than I really am, I decided to make another one of these threads. I know at least my topic for fixing 7th Edition got a decent amount of replies, but of course I abandoned it once 8th was announced, essentially.
For the record, I think GW has created a pretty good starting point for a LOT of the core rules, codices, and subfactions, and I admire the fact the stuff is pretty easy to pick up. However, there are some places where there are duds, places that could use slightly more detail for just a little more flavor, and places where they need significant improvement. Some places that were listened to for the Community (like harder to cast Smite) I agree with overall.

The goal of this thread is really to help other people create a framework if they don't like a lot of what 8th has to offer, or want to improve upon it like I want to. I won't be able to use any of these rules; in fact, outside maybe ITC I don't live in areas with any homebrew rules or anywhere that does the whole "narrative" thing (which is blech anyway because Power Level is garbage system). These are strictly a labor of love (and hate, but mostly love), and seeing how people feel about my ideas, gauging just how much on track I am for what people might want. I also want help with the language GW uses to be consistent, as well as making sure I'm as clear as GW or more clear.

SO, let's begin, shall we? Don't expect a BUNCH of stuff posted at once. I'm starting with the core rules and once that is done (and mostly approved, as I have a feeling the four generic Psyker tables will get a LOT of criticisms), I'll post my workings for my first three codices I've been working on: Codex Chaos Space Marines, their Loyalist Scum Codex equivalents, and Necrons. I'll also take suggestions for Fluff text as I'm not a total fluffbunny but reading the stuff is sometimes fun.

I also really have reiterate that you should evaluate everything based on the fact I'm going after a lot of stuff, basically. If you think something is stupid because Codex X can't compete, MAYBE wait until I touch said codex. That's why I'm planning on getting 3 codex fixes at once. Try seeing if you feel they can fight each other and be at least kinda equal. I'll admit I'm not perfect but I will strive for it and will take any criticisms and ideas that will go towards that goal.

GENERAL RULES IDEAS/CHANGES
Spoiler:

CORE RULES
1. General incorporation of new Terrain rules in Chapter Approved 2019 for Narrative Play into the core rules themselves. I will copy-pasta the things I like once I get my Chapter Approved (which should've arrived yesterday but oh well), but you can just message me the relevant bits if you want that you fell in love with.
2. If you elect for a unit to Fall Back, your Opponent's units will attempt to attack your fleeing unit. These attacks are conducted by all models in range with all their close combat attacks hitting on a 6+, regardless of any modifiers.
3. Units that you elect to Fall Back from cannot be shot at, unless the unit that attempts to shoot is within 9" of the opponent's unit.
4. Units with the Keyword FLY take a -1 to Hit when shooting the turn they Fall Back, in addition to any other modifiers the unit might normally have.

GENERIC PSYKER TABLES
1. TELEPATHY/TELEKINESIS (I dunno but I'm combining the two old tables and want a name for it)
. Strikedown has a warp charge value of 8. If manifested, select a visible enemy unit within 18". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit cannot move, advance, or charge. This does not work on units with the TITANIC Keyword.
. Levitation has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION unit within 12". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit gains an additional an additional 1" to their movement and charge distance, and in addition gains the Fly keyword.
. Crush has a warp charge value of 5. If manifested, select a visible enemy model within 12". That model immediately suffers D3 S6 attacks at AP-2 D1. This attack ignores any Invulnerable Saves.
. Psychic Shriek has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a visible enemy unit within 12". Roll 3D6 and compare to the Leadership value of the targeted unit. If rolled value is lower, nothing happens. If it's equal, the unit suffers 1 Mortal Wound. If higher, the unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds.
. Invisibility has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly unit within 12". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, any attacks targeting that unit must be rerolled if successful. This does not work on units with the VEHICLE or MONSTER Keywords.
. Terrify/Dominate has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a visible enemy unit within 12". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit suffers a D3 penalty to their Leadership and may not conduct Overwatch. In addition, your opponent must reroll any successful Morale tests for that unit.
2. PYROMANCY
. Flame Breath has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a visible enemy unit with 8". Roll 3D6 and pick the highest value. That unit suffers that many hits at S6
. Fiery Form has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION model within 12". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, the model adds 1 to its Invulnerable Save, or if it didn't have one gains a 5+ Invulnerable Save (to a maximum of 3+). In addition, that model can reroll any failed To Wound rolls.
. Fire Shield has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION unit within 12". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, the unit is treated as being in TERRAIN TYPE (and therefore gains +1 to their Armor Saves). If the unit is already in cover, it gains an additional +1 to their Armor Saves. In addition, any enemy unit attempting to charge at this subtracts 1" off their Charge.
. Infernus Ammo has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION unit within 12". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit's shooting attacks ignore the benefits of Cover. In addition, for each model slain by a shooting attack by this unit, that unit suffers an additional hit at S3.
. Sunburst has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, each unit within 6" of the Psyker suffers 2D3 S2 hits, rerolling all failed rolls To Wound.
. Molten Beam has a warp charge of 8. If manifested, select a visible enemy unit within 12". That unit suffers D3 hits at S8 AP-4, and each hit inflicting 4 Damage.
3. DIVINATION
. Foreboding has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION unit within 18". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that units adds +1 to any Overwatch rolls, and can be combined with other modifiers.
. Perfect Timing has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION unit within 18". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit's shooting attacks ignore the benefits of Cover. In addition, any attacks conducted by that unit gain an additional AP-1 on their attacks on a To Wound roll of 6+, and can be combined with other modifiers.
. Precognition has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION model within 12". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, any attack that targets that model suffers a -1 to all hit rolls. In addition, the model can reroll any failed Save rolls.
. Misfortune has a warp charge value of 8. If manifested, select a visible enemy unit within 12". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit suffers -1 to all To Hit rolls and -1" to any Charges.
. Divine Focus has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION unit within 18". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit automatically passes all Morale tests, and in addition ignores any penalties to its To Hit rolls.
. Scrier's Gaze has a warp charge value of 8. If manifested, select a friendly FACTION unit within 18". Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit may fire at any enemy unit coming from Reserves with 12". This cannot be combined with similar abilities.
4. BIOMANCY
. COMING SOON

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in es
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker




Barcelona, Spain

I've recently been testing this sort of "major" rule changes in games. First, I convinced my group of 40k friends that usually play (5 in total), that since we only play against each other, why shouldn't we try changing the rules to our liking? Firstly, we have decided we will play more narrative games from now on; that is, regular matched play rules and points, but fielding fluffy and cool armies; rather than OP or abusive lists. That in itself, imo, fixes a big chunck of 8th edition's issues. The main argument for this is: since the core rules are a joke with 8 pages, why should we take it so seriously? It takes very little to realise how ridiculous these are for a big game like 40k, so we will avoid the RAW syndrome and your typical stupid game situations. All of us are experienced gamers, and can learn complex rules; so the argument of "difficulty" is not considered (it doesn't mean rules have to be complex; the simpler the rule, the better).

This said, we began talking about what to change from the rules. We all agreed there are mainly 3 issues for us: cover, los and falling back. The first was easily fixed: we just count cover the "narrative way". Would those shots have any chance of hitting that terrain piece when shooting that specific unit from its point of view? If yes, the unit has +1. Simple, quick and makes a lot of sense. Also, we usually fill our tables with cover, from buildings to any little barrier. This makes cover very common, but from what we have tested, it's not bad at all! It just makes sense and prevents absurd "you are 1.1" from this wall, therefore completely exposed. The second point is very much related to the first. For vehicles, we quickly agreed to bring back arcs of fire. Some might argue it makes them way worse, but since they will mostly get cover if they stay behind some terrain, it makes up for it. Also, this incites vehicles to become more than just a track link firing 2d6 shots and what more from the inside of a ruin. That situation really puts me out of the game when I've had it done to me. Infantry and los is the difficult point to fix. We argued about the better old system of killing only the visible miniatures when fired at; just like you only shoot with the visible firing miniatures. Again, it is really frustrating when a 10-man unit dies because you couldn't hide the left arm of a single marine. Solutions? We discussed many, but for now we are testing a mix of rules: when firing, you can only kill visible miniatures (so wounds can only be allocated to them); but you can declare you would like to have the chance of killing all but then must have a -1 to hit. Keeping both options, limiting the obvious better, makes much more sense to us; it is as stupid to kill 10 guys when only 1 was visible as killing the single one because the rest happen to be behind something (this could go from 4 rows of large buildings, to a tiny column that just happens to hide it). It's much more balanced for us. We are also considering giving the old template and area weapons the hability to ignore the -1, as explosions/flamers would have an area effect.

Finally, there's the falling back situation. We haven't implemented any changes so far, except for a new strategem for all LR variants (Imperium and Chaos): for 1CP you might fall back and shoot with a -1 (POTMS is still active though). The rules you suggested for this are actually very interesting. At first, the one I would love to implement would be to strike again but hitting on 6s. It rewards costly charges, without breaking the melee. There would be some specific exceptions made for re-rolls for example and bersekers only fighting once (twice, even on 6s wouldn't make much sense). The point that I'm having mixed feelings about is the no shooting beyond 9" bit. I kinda like it, but 9" feels like too short range. For now, I would always grant cover to said unit. I will think about what you proposed. Also, I hadn't proposed the FLY -1, but I might consider it now.
We have another rule that makes all 6s automatically hit too, but if you were hitting on 7+, you might not re-roll any dice (unless you use the strategem, because good luck with that 6).

For psiker tables, honestly, I think most of what you wrote is quite overpowered. I haven't gone deeply into them, but imo psikers are ok for now. I would rather focus in other aspects of the game (core rules, sub-faction balancing).

I know many of this rules might not be to the liking of a lot of players, but again, these are not intended for everyone. These are our rules, developed from a whole year of not as exciting as I would have liked battles. I know orks, IF and Iron Warriors would have notable bonuses/nerfs because of some of this changes, but again; 7-page rule-set, unbalanced sub-faction rules, tank rivets dropping 4d6 shots, and GROTS STOPPING FREAKING LAND RAIDERS.

PS: I also forgot we have rules to prevent total destruction of embarked units when transport is destroyed in melee, and a special roll to have vehicles and monsters fall-back through infantry and swarms (it represents the tank attempting to drive through a horde of infantry, which, depending on how strong those are, might suceed or fail and take some damage). Also, sorry if some things are not very well written, it's late and I don't feel like typing everything perfectly. Looking forward to hearing your opinion on our changes!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/07 23:17:59


"Eventually, everything falls to a bolter" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Like I said, I expect a lot of feedback on the Psyker tables and any help with effects or warp charge cost would be wonderful.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




I don´t really care about generic psy-tables (because I play T´au and Necrons). It seems to me as if your trying to fix the paintjob on your car, while it has a flat tire.
But aside from balance-issues, some of your ideas are decent. As general feedback I can say that my main issue with the current psy-powers is that most can be described as "some mortal wounds" and "generic buff/debuff". There are very few tactically relevant powers (da jump, warptime). Try to aim for that and try to avoid making 10 different powers which in the end all do the same but in a different color.

I got my own ideas on falling back, but they kinda come together with a whole bunch of other changes, so I´ll make a seperate post for that (though propably not today).
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




OKorVesah wrote:
I don´t really care about generic psy-tables (because I play T´au and Necrons). It seems to me as if your trying to fix the paintjob on your car, while it has a flat tire.
But aside from balance-issues, some of your ideas are decent. As general feedback I can say that my main issue with the current psy-powers is that most can be described as "some mortal wounds" and "generic buff/debuff". There are very few tactically relevant powers (da jump, warptime). Try to aim for that and try to avoid making 10 different powers which in the end all do the same but in a different color.

I got my own ideas on falling back, but they kinda come together with a whole bunch of other changes, so I´ll make a seperate post for that (though propably not today).

I'm sick of all the current offensive powers to be simply Mortal Wounds generated in some way. Plus the three of four (Biomancy is still being worked on. Oof...) helps with Psyker based armies not being held back by the basic "1 of each power a turn". That's of course assuming the Powers aren't super overpowered in the first place which I hoped to avoid.

Also I understand as I play Necrons. Once I post the basic revisions I definitely want to hear your feedback.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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