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Hey guys,

I'm currently looking for a "secret weapon" for an upcoming ITC 2000 point tournament (ironic to post it online I know...), and have been scouring through some of the more obscure units for a hidden gem. One unit which has caught my attention is the Land Raider Achilles. It recently got reduced by 70 points! Now like most people, I have issues with Land Raiders in general. It's a lot of points to put into a unit that can die pretty easy. The LRAch has a huge advantage of the 4+ invuln, plus 19 wounds instead of the usual 16. The other thing about the standard LR is that they don't have amazing firepower for their points. While the LRAch still doesn't necessarily have as much as something like a knight, it ends up having almost twice the firepower of a regular LR (maybe 1.5ish). Four multi-meltas are pretty comparable in firepower to four lascannons, swapping a point in strength for an extra AP and the lovely melta rule. And in the meantime, that quad-launcher is a hell of a secondary weapon at Heavy 4, Str 8, AP-2, 3D. In itself it is almost two twin-lass'. Plus you have the 60" mortar version for when you need it. Point for point it seems to have decent output, but it's really in defense that this baby shines.

But I'm looking to pump the gas a little. Rather than run one, I'm thinking of running two or three, for the classic reasons of redundancy.

The two things I'm looking for are:
A) ways to get the most out of them

and

B) units that will compliment them.

If I were to run three that would bring me to 1065 points. I'm trying to think of which faction would work best for them. Deathwatch has some good strats for helping them wound. BA and Raven Guard have chapter masters in jump packs that could keep up and hang in the middle of a Flying V or something to that effect. Maybe even a DA darkshroud just to make all 3 -1 to hit, adding an extra level of survivability to things. Can you guys think of anything else to add? FNP?

And what kind of stuff would you run with the remaining points? The list would be pretty lacking in anti-infantry/horde options. I would be tempted to run a couple of fire raptors, who have a tonne of dakka. Even the storm eagle has decent firepower, and is 100 points cheaper than the fire raptor. And if I were running a darkshroud they could buff the planes to -2. It also means that the either target the planes, and have three close-range Achilles' bearing down on them, or they try to focus down the tanks and board me, but 3 Achilles' won't be easy, particularly if I can find an extra bit of support for them. The other thought was to run an outrider of custodes bikes, but a minimum outrider plus 3 LRAch is like 2050 points, so I'd have to drop to two LRAchs.

Anyway, I would love to hear any other ideas you've got for me!

The best way to run it is going to be CSM, Tzeentch. You can cast Weaver of Fates on it for 2+/3++ and make it a bit more durable. CSM unlike regular marines actually have units who want to get into combat, so they can jump in and hitch a ride.

Putting Kharn in it with like, 5 Berzerkers or something might be the best way to make use of the transport aspect, and you do want to make use of all its rules at that cost.



Then on the flipside of the coin:

CSM have much better melee units in the form of flying DP's than almost anything that wants to be in a transport.

Everyone is packing to kill a Knight who is also at T8 2+/3++ against shooting, except with more wounds. And in some cases, not even more expensive either.




If you are planning on running it loyalist... I think options are even more bare. I have no idea what I'd use it for. Some blood angels units or something?

Thanks so much Shuppet for getting back to me. Great suggestion.

Funnily enough I had actually considered doing the CSM version, and what little info and experience of the Achilles I could find online did suggest that. But unless my BattleScribe is wrong, it looks like the Hellforged version costs 45 points more, and I can’t for the life of me figure out why. Personally I much prefer the imperial quad launcher over the soulburner bombard, and other than that I can’t spot the difference.

Weaver of fates was also recommended on the couple of tidbits I read, but really that will only help one of the Achilles, plus it implies that I get first turn, cast it successfully without being denied and even then, the opponent can just target something else. I’m not saying it isn’t useful, just that it is less reliable than something like a Darkshroud, which can give -1 to all 3 Achilles’, doesn’t depend on going first to get it off, and can hide behind the LRs for LOS.

I’m hesitant to pack too much into the transport. I prefer to have as many threats on the table as possible. If I have a 350 point tank with another 250 points inside, that just makes my opponents decision easy. If I have 5-6 ~350 point units on the table it becomes a little harder. Most I would probably put inside is a small scout squad for securing objectives cheaply. Like you, I don’t like paying points for abilities I’m not using, but seeing as this LR has a lower transport capacity I feel like I’m not wasting it as much, and really filling it with a big combat unit is one of the big reasons why LR don’t work in the first place - too many eggs in one basket.

I’ve only had experience against 5 or so types of knights, and never seen one which is T8 2+/3++. What kind of knight is that? I think I’ve seen them manage a 3++ before. Many of them also cost a hundred points over the Achilles, or more. The only knight I’ve seen which is similar in points value to an Achilles is the Gallant. And they’re pretty comparable. LRAch has 5 less wounds, but the 3+/5++ becomes 2+/4++. The Gallant is a monster in combat, but the Achilles probably matches it in damage output when you add up the 8 shots, and is useful at up to 24” where the gallant is only useful in melee.

But I’ve never versed renegade knights so is there something there I’ve missed? Thanks again for the food for thought ☺️ I’m hoping there are other boosts, similar to Weaver of Fates or the Darkshroud, or useful stratagems / auras, that people will be able to think of.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Everyone is packing to kill a Knight who is also at T8 2+/3++ against shooting, except with more wounds. And in some cases, not even more expensive either.




If you are planning on running it loyalist... I think options are even more bare. I have no idea what I'd use it for. Some blood angels units or something?

Minor nitpick. No knight in practice has 2/3. Apart from most 3++ being castellan that def wants cawl's wrath rather than 2+ but why waste relic for 2+ that only helps vs ap0 weapons?

For a basic template, you could try something like this. I think Deathwatch would be a strong choice if you want to stay loyalist.



In practice it might be better with just 2 LRs and 2 Frag squads, using the points to get more boots on the ground to help with winning missions, but that setup could be nasty.
Good amount of CPs.
Frag cannons for anti-horde. 4 frag cannons can average ~16 dead Orks per shooting phase or overwatch, or fire high strength for vehicles/knights.
You get a smash cap, not quite as good as a BA one but still does good work.

Issues are once you're out of the LRs you have durability concerns. No psychic defense.

Another option would be to fill the LRs with Storm Bolter Deathwatch, they are cheaper but can still throw out 20 SIA shots when they get out. They could even be part of combat squadded full units, half normal vets with SBs, the other half either 1) 3 bikes and 2 VVs for quick strike teams or 2) 5 Stalker pattern guys for long range SIA shots.
Something along the lines of this

Looking at this one, you're really only putting 90ish points inside the LRs, the rest is fast stuff, cheap guardsmen, and characters.

I don't use forgeworld yet so some of the organizational stuff might be off, just throwing this out there as a basic idea. The Achilles are just there as a placeholder, I haven't made any lists with them before.

 superwill wrote:
...I'm thinking of running two or three, for the classic reasons of redundancy.

The two things I'm looking for are:
A) ways to get the most out of them

and

B) units that will compliment them....

Chaos give out the best buffs to individual units, but if you want to run 2-3 loyalists you will need to abuse overlapping auras from characters/relics/warlord traits. Some that spring to mind:

Space wolves - chaplain ven dread with saga of beastslayer (+1 wound vs monsters/vehicles aura), wolves also have a -1 to hit psychic power to slap on main AT units
Dark angels - ravenwing darkshroud (-1 to hit aura), also has a stackable longer range version of space wolves -1 to hit power
Deathwatch - watch master is one of the cheapest "reroll all hits" characters, SIA compliments the achilles good AT
Blood angels - not much except Gabriel Seth is similar to a watch master in price and use
Codex astartes - pretty much just Guilliman. A thunderfire canon would compliment

The other best complimentary choice is going to be a cheap IG battalion as you will be short on CP/actual points after taking 3 achilles.

I'm thinking that you double down on the giant bricks and take some repulsors to back up the Achilles.

The main weakness of the Achilles is lack of anti horde and getting locked down in combat, the repulsor can pack a mass of anti infantry and can't be locked in combat.

Make them Raven guard for a built in -1 to hit and a jumppack chaptermaster for an extra bonus. Splash in some troop units to ride around and score late game and your presenting your opponent with just T8 models with -1 to hit early game.

Raven Guard doesn't apply to vehicles except Dreads. So no -1.

Dark angels master, dark shroud, 2 Achilles

3 Gallants

I wouldnt run an LRAch. Its meltas need to be within 12" to get the melta bonus, way to close to the enemy, and its "only" S8. It might get trapped in melee, unable to move, and fire.

tneva82 wrote:

Minor nitpick. No knight in practice has 2/3. Apart from most 3++ being castellan that def wants cawl's wrath rather than 2+ but why waste relic for 2+ that only helps vs ap0 weapons?

I always run my gallant with 2+/4++. 3++ with RIS. Lots of AP0 hits (melee or ranged attacks) really help against 3+, you do roll those 2s and 1s.

 p5freak wrote:
I wouldnt run an LRAch. Its meltas need to be within 12" to get the melta bonus, way to close to the enemy, and its "only" S8. It might get trapped in melee, unable to move, and fire.

tneva82 wrote:

Minor nitpick. No knight in practice has 2/3. Apart from most 3++ being castellan that def wants cawl's wrath rather than 2+ but why waste relic for 2+ that only helps vs ap0 weapons?

I always run my gallant with 2+/4++. 3++ with RIS. Lots of AP0 hits (melee or ranged attacks) really help against 3+, you do roll those 2s and 1s.

Thanks freak, appreciate the honesty. Yeah it does seem like a big issue. Even at 24” the LRAch still seems useful, if I need to try and keep it on the edge of combat. But the threat of combat does make me think that, if it’s going to work, I need to have one of these two going for me:
- Be Dark Angels, so I can use the fall back and shoot strat. Still try and avoid combat, but if one does get touched I can still shoot with it.
Or
- Fill the transport with something so that it’s dual purpose. For example, if I did have 5 deathwatch with 4 frag cannons in it, if anyone does get close enough to touch it I can jump out and toast a lot of buns.

I’m not sure... On one hand, when you weigh up their offense and defence, point for point they seem to compete with some of the better units in the game. But there are certainly some big question marks too. I guess I was hoping that people would be able to think of things I’d missed as to how to really break the unit, but perhaps it just won’t be able to happen.

And watch it get charged turn 2 and do nothing for the rest of the game.

As others have pointed out, you'll need to screen them heavily and you'll also need plenty of anti-infantry dakka to go alongside them.

Cultists/Guardsmen depending on your loyalties. Not as experienced with Chaos, but marines have plenty of anti-infantry dakka options. Aggressors, Redemptors, Repulsors etc.

Cool idea though, let us know how you get on.