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Alright dakka peeps. I'm thinking of changing things up and playing my Alpha Legion in tournements next year. I've been playing chaos daemons for most of last year and want to try this list in tournements. It does well playing casually with friends.

I've tried playing with 2x 40 man blobs of cultists before and have not been impressed. They die too easily to morale and it's rarely worth the 4cp to auto pass morale and use tide of traitors. Especially now they're 5 points each now. But asside from that any changes are possible.

The usual plan is to form a gunline. Plasma CSM, cultists and contemptor dreadnought run interferance/capture objectives and oblits and terminator sorcerer come in turn two and generally wreck face. Any thoughts/comments will be appreciated. Chosen in rhino go hunting for big game. Lots of options for VotLW and Endless Cacophony combo.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [69 PL, 1197pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 98pts]: Blade of the Hydra, Chainsword, I am Alpharius, Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Warlord

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 112pts]: Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Force sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [6 PL, 70pts]: 13x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 87pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Chosen [7 PL, 154pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Chosen Champion: Combi-melta, Power fist
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Combi-melta
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Combi-melta
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Combi-melta
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Combi-melta

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 146pts]: Slaanesh
. Left Arm: Ectoplasma blaster, Hellforged deathclaw
. Right Arm: Twin heavy bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [10 PL, 204pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 3x Havoc w/ boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

Havocs [10 PL, 204pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 3x Havoc w/ boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [46 PL, 801pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

Sorcerer [6 PL, 100pts]: Bolt pistol, Delightful Agonies, Force axe, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 87pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 75pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 75pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [115 PL, 1998pts] ++

Speaking as someone who plays against Alpha Legion regularly but doesn't play them myself:
Autocannons are blatantly better than Heavy Bolters. Take them.
I'd go so far as to suggest taking four Autocannons in place of four of your Lascannons.

Also, a single Rhino is going to get popped in about three seconds, and the five Chosen inside will only last a couple moments longer.

Even moreso on the Contemptor: You should never be taking Heavy Bolters. A Butcher Cannon is only 8pts more and is massively better. Take the Butcher Cannon.

I take your point on the rhino. I generally try and hide it t1 but usually it's a long slog to get them in range from there.
On the autocannon I think generally you're right but I worry about dealing with 90 boyz or 100s of nids. I do think a bit of variety wouldn't hurt though.
Been thinking about running 3 contemptor dreads they just seem a bargain so with that in mind I've gone for this list:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [75 PL, 1195pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 98pts]: Blade of the Hydra, Chainsword, I am Alpharius, Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Warlord

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 112pts]: Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Force sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 87pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 154pts]: Slaanesh
. Left Arm: Ectoplasma blaster, Hellforged deathclaw
. Right Arm: Butcher cannon

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 138pts]: Slaanesh
. Left Arm: Butcher cannon
. Right Arm: Butcher cannon

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 154pts]: Slaanesh
. Left Arm: Ectoplasma blaster, Hellforged deathclaw
. Right Arm: Butcher cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [10 PL, 176pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 2x Havoc w/ boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

Havocs [10 PL, 176pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 2x Havoc w/ boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [46 PL, 801pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

Sorcerer [6 PL, 100pts]: Bolt pistol, Delightful Agonies, Force axe, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 87pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 75pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 75pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [121 PL, 1996pts] ++

Any thoughts?

That's better, but I'm still looking at your Heavy Bolter squads wondering what exactly the point of them is.
It's unfortunate, but CSM squads bring very little to the table and if you want to make them useful they need to have a distinct role away from Cultists.
Your Plasma squads do this well - Providing 4 S8 AP-3 D2 shots means you can kill Terminators, Bikes, Meganobz, etc...
A single Heavy Bolter does not offer significant enough utility compared to bringing 15 Cultists.
15 Cultists are just blatantly more durable, offer more firepower, and can screen better than five CSM with one heavy bolter. All you get is 12" further threat range for three shots. Even with the price bump it's no contest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, I did the math on your firepower, and your butcher cannons are the MVP against almost any target except T8+ or T3 with an invuln, like Daemons.

That's interesting. The only reason for the heavy bolters is that 3 shot vs 2 shot and the extra stength and damage makes no difference to hoardes. I prefer CSM to cultists for holding distant objectives, especially if you can get cover. But I have been using othe more mobile stuff to sit on central objectives (oblits, contemptor etc).

On the butcher cannon I do have a leviathan with double butcher cannon array (16 shots) may try out putting him back into the mix. I had a hard time killing things with a 2+ armour save because of the -1 AP but maybe this is more to do with regualarly facing other leviathans, hellblasters in cover, knights with 2+ armour etc. I do now have the havocs and oblits for bigger, better armpured targets.

I'll also run all autocannons to test them in practice, tbf they were modelled when heavy bolters were cheaper.

CSM are more durable than Cultists against Lasgun and Bolter equivalents when in cover, and either equal or worse against everything else.

Since you mentioned Hellblasters in cover: 8 Butcher Cannon shots with a lord nearby will kill 1.7 Primaris in cover per turn, which is a 1:3 damage/cost ratio, which is already pretty good... But you also debuff their leadership, so if you can get a couple more kills by focus firing, we get a rare opportunity to actually make Space Marines fail leadership. (And if you catch them with their pants down out of cover, you're killing almost three Hellblasters base.) (Damage from 4 Autocannons on Havocs is about 20% lower, but you can double-shoot and put out some serious hurt.)

I like the leadership debuff idea just seems situational unless your nightlords packed with raptors. I have tried running raptora and Be'lakor with butcher leviathan before but didn't really get any value out of it. But perhaps with practice could get more out of it.

Do you think 2 contemptors or 1 leviathan is the better option for the butcher cannons?

Just been running some numbers of 5 bolter csm vs 13 cultists (same points). Both firing rapid fire in open. 26 auto rifle shots equals 1.44 dead CSM. 10 bolter shots 3.7 dead cultists. They're then likeley to loose another 1 to leadership. So they seem fairly comparable.

Either way I think they're at least close in points efficiency after CA. And I prefer to look of a CSM heavy list.

 small_gods wrote:
I like the leadership debuff idea just seems situational unless your nightlords packed with raptors. I have tried running raptora and Be'lakor with butcher leviathan before but didn't really get any value out of it. But perhaps with practice could get more out of it.

Do you think 2 contemptors or 1 leviathan is the better option for the butcher cannons?

Just been running some numbers of 5 bolter csm vs 13 cultists (same points). Both firing rapid fire in open. 26 auto rifle shots equals 1.44 dead CSM. 10 bolter shots 3.7 dead cultists. They're then likeley to loose another 1 to leadership. So they seem fairly comparable.

Either way I think they're at least close in points efficiency after CA. And I prefer to look of a CSM heavy list.

That's a tough call on Contemptors vs Leviathans, and it depends on what kind of fire you expect to see. The Leviathan has much better overwatch and short range fire, better Toughness and Armor, and is a single model so benefits more from buffs like Prescience. The Contemptors have the benefit of 6 more wounds, and not being attached to each other, so you'll last a bit longer and retain some damage output if your opponent hits you with really heavy firepower. I would personally lean towards the Leviathan, but it's up to you.

The Leadership debuff isn't going to do a huge amount on its own, but for units who you are targeting heavily it's basically two extra kills unless your opponent spends Command Points. Once you get to the point where you're shooting at 10+ man squads, you can pretty much guarantee a failed leadership check unless you're playing against Orks or Nids. (Marines are guaranteed to lose a model to leadership against Butcher cannons if you kill at least 6 of them, as opposed to 8 with any other weapon.)

As for durability, you're right assuming that you don't have any leadership buffing units nearby (which you don't,) but that's in line with what I said earlier. With no AP and low strength, the CSM win in cover, tie outside of cover. With pretty much any other weapons, the CSM start to lose. The problem is that it's very easy to direct more efficient firepower against CSM, but it's hard to get more efficient against Cultists - Once you hit S6 AP-1, you've capped out your maximum possible damage against cultists and need to start bringing other firepower. Meanwhile, CSM are vulnerable to a lot more weapons because anything packing AP-2 or better and S8+ is going to be extra efficient against them. (Though if that's what you prefer fluff-wise, go for it. The difference probably won't matter except at the top levels of play.)

Thanks for the input mate. I think I'll roll out that leviathan and try using mark of nurgle to make it -2 to hit. I think that should be more useful than delightful agonies. My main concern was that it's a lascannon magnet, but that should at least make him stick around till t2 or 3 with a bit of luck. And if opponent heavily focus fire they're at least ignoring double firing havocs/oblits.

I intend to get to four or 5 locals this year and the warhammer GT so I'll see how this runs. Now just to finish my endless list of painting!

 small_gods wrote:
Thanks for the input mate. I think I'll roll out that leviathan and try using mark of nurgle to make it -2 to hit. I think that should be more useful than delightful agonies. My main concern was that it's a lascannon magnet, but that should at least make him stick around till t2 or 3 with a bit of luck. And if opponent heavily focus fire they're at least ignoring double firing havocs/oblits.

I intend to get to four or 5 locals this year and the warhammer GT so I'll see how this runs. Now just to finish my endless list of painting!

5+ FNP vs -1 to hit is very situational. Against Orks, the extra -1 to hit won't do anything because of Dakka Dakka Dakka (and, for that matter, if they use More Dakka even Alpha Legion won't matter.) Against Space Marine equivalents, the extra -1 to hit will reduce damage by an additional 33%. Against Guard equivalents, you'll cut the damage you take in half. Against hyper elite armies, though, it'll only be a 25% difference.
Most notably, though, you make it effectively impossible to use most Plasma against you if it's overcharged. Castellans would take more wounds than they deal by shooting at you, and almost as many wounds if they use Cawl's Wrath. A Hellblaster squad would literally kill itself in the attempt.

In summary: I think going for the -1 is going to be your best bet.

Yeah I think I can put delightful agonies on havocs or contemptor then at least I'm spreading psychic powers around a little. Often find myself smiting a screening unit because there's no useful powers left to use. This way I can drop death hex and cast 4 seperate powers.