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Enemy pred fires twin lascannon at devi squad with ancient and kills my lascannon I have an ancient near by and manage to shoot the lascannon at the same pred killing it. Say it had side heavy bolters they can't now fire right?

What if it had side lascannon could he fire all 4 shots at once with fast dice... I'm assuming it has to be one at a time.

 Latro_ wrote:
Enemy pred fires twin lascannon at devi squad with ancient and kills my lascannon I have an ancient near by and manage to shoot the lascannon at the same pred killing it. Say it had side heavy bolters they can't now fire right?

What if it had side lascannon could he fire all 4 shots at once with fast dice... I'm assuming it has to be one at a time.

It's one of those situations where because GW don't bother writing rules correctly it's unclear. The rules simply don't cover this situation properly so you must use TMIR to work it out.

 Latro_ wrote:
Enemy pred fires twin lascannon at devi squad with ancient and kills my lascannon I have an ancient near by and manage to shoot the lascannon at the same pred killing it. Say it had side heavy bolters they can't now fire right?

What if it had side lascannon could he fire all 4 shots at once with fast dice... I'm assuming it has to be one at a time.

You still fire all of its weapons. This is not written out explicitly, but it's part of the way order of operations works in 40k - If something interrupts a model or unit's ability to fire after they've already started shooting, they still get to make all of their shots. This is explained in a few different FAQ responses (For example, if an enemy target is loses models and becomes out of range mid-shooting, you can still shoot the rest of your weapons.)

That’s a specific condition of the shooting rules. It in now way can be extrapolated to mean a dead model can shoot.

It’s impossible to shoot more guns after removing a slain model from the battlefield. The shots are lost.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That’s a specific condition of the shooting rules. It in now way can be extrapolated to mean a dead model can shoot.

It’s impossible to shoot more guns after removing a slain model from the battlefield. The shots are lost.

The shots are not lost, because once a gun is nominated to fire it can't be un-nominated. The predator in this example wouldn't be removed until after we are already in the "Resolve attacks" section of the shooting phase, and once we're in the "Resolve attacks" section of the shooting phase there is no mechanism in the rules for those attacks to be discarded or ignored.

There is no rules basis for the shots not to be fired, because by the time the model is removed as slain, the attacks are already nominated to have started. (This does raise questions with how aura-based modifiers should be applied, because there are no rules written to explain this situation explicitly, but that's neither here nor there.)

yeah the predator should have declared all its shooting prior to killing anything and thus would still get to fire everything.

How does a removed model resolve anything? I don’t see how it can.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
How does a removed model resolve anything? I don’t see how it can.

Agreed. This is why Plasma needs a specific clause to allow you to continue to resolve shots if you die from Gets Hot.

Also means that technically you can't fast roll against anyone in range of an ancient

 JohnnyHell wrote:
How does a removed model resolve anything? I don’t see how it can.

Why are you removing the tank before all its shots have been resolved?

Yeah its dead, but it already declared all its shooting. You don't pick it up till that's done.

What BS does a Predator with 0 wounds have? The Tyranid FAQ only applies to Tyranids.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
How does a removed model resolve anything? I don’t see how it can.

Why are you removing the tank before all its shots have been resolved?

Yeah its dead, but it already declared all its shooting. You don't pick it up till that's done.

Can you cite where any rule tells you to suspend the slain model rules to allow this?

you don't have to suspend anything.


Before the model died, you declared all its shooting and determined its BS.

The BS doesn't change just because an out of sequence event killed it.

You continue making all your shots, at the same BS till your done, then pick up the (now dead) model.



It works exactly the same as when models die out of sequence in the fight phase. The models that were in range to attack still get to fight (since it all happens at the same time) even if they aren't anymore as long as they were part of the same unit.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
you don't have to suspend anything.


Before the model died, you declared all its shooting and determined its BS.

The BS doesn't change just because an out of sequence event killed it.

You continue making all your shots, at the same BS till your done, then pick up the (now dead) model.

You're making stuff up now. You don't 'determine BS' when declaring shots. That's not a rule.

Also, nowhere does it say that once an attack has declared nothing can stop the attack happening. All you are doing by declaring is literally declaring your intentions. If the models dies it can't fulfill its intentions, that's all.

As i see it's just sequencing again.

The predator is resolving an Action (firing it's weapons to x/y/z targets)

Another action triggers (ancient ability)

Now we have several actions at once, Predator resolving further attacks (wich already are named and pending of resolve) and Ancient ability.

Sequencing triggers and the player whose turn is chooses the order.

Sequencing only happens if different effects/strats are taking place at the same time.

A units attacks are all simultaneous, no matter what happens in between.


In the fight phase, if I have a charging unit with different melee weapon profiles, they all get to swing at the same time, whether or not the enemy removes models near them or far away from them.

This is practically the exact same thing.

A unit (the predator) is firing all its weapons at the same time. They are resolving one at a time, because they must, but no matter what happens on the opponents end, they must all be resolved.

Again, you don’t have a citation for this. That’s your HIWPI but the rules have no way to process what you state. The model has been removed. It’s not possible to resolve further effects or shots unless a special rule says so.

 Lord Perversor wrote:
As i see it's just sequencing again.

The predator is resolving an Action (firing it's weapons to x/y/z targets)

Another action triggers (ancient ability)

Now we have several actions at once, Predator resolving further attacks (wich already are named and pending of resolve) and Ancient ability.

Sequencing triggers and the player whose turn is chooses the order.

This isn't sequencing. Sequencing is when multiple effects occur simultaneously. These effects aren't simultaneous, they're nested (one occuring within the resolution of another).

That may seem pedantic, but it's a very important difference because the game handles them very differently.

Why on earth would you think the attacks being resolved in the shooting phase would differ so significantly compared to the fight phase?

I haven't read anything in the BRB that suggests your interpretation is any more valid.

There is no indication whatsoever that anything can interrupt and cancel out a firing units attacks after they have already selected targets and started rolling dice.

But when exactly do you cut of the predators attacks, if ever? You're already firing the AC, already done all the hit and wound rolls - do you just disregard them just because the first round killed a missile launcher that then killed the predator? Or do you keep resolving those wounds? If yes, what's the argument to then disregard the heavy bolter sponsons?

Because you haven't started resolving the Heavy Bolter yet. It really is that simple.

 Stux wrote:
Because you haven't started resolving the Heavy Bolter yet. It really is that simple.

what about the remaining AC rounds then?
And what happens to them if you were not fast rolling them?

 Stux wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
How does a removed model resolve anything? I don’t see how it can.

Agreed. This is why Plasma needs a specific clause to allow you to continue to resolve shots if you die from Gets Hot.

Also means that technically you can't fast roll against anyone in range of an ancient

If a combi-plasma fires both the bolter & plasma, overcharges and kills the shooter the unit shooting still gets the bolter shots. Yes it's specifically included in the rules for that weapon but I'm willing to believe this is because this problem is far more apparent in this situation. If anything I'd use it as an example of what to do.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Again, you don’t have a citation for this. That’s your HIWPI but the rules have no way to process what you state. The model has been removed. It’s not possible to resolve further effects or shots unless a special rule says so.

Consider it this way.

If the pred was equipped with 4 lascannons the player firing it would most likely shoot all 4 at the same target and resolve them equally (as most people do).

If the pred had it's twin linked las and heavy bolters, same thing applies. The rules are clear in that all shots have to be nominated at the same time. Rulebook then states you 'resolve all the shots at one target before moving on to next' (p179), suggesting to me that all nominated shots have to be resolved before further effects can be applied.

The pred taking the las back occurs after the pred's shots have bee resolved.

nekooni wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Because you haven't started resolving the Heavy Bolter yet. It really is that simple.

what about the remaining AC rounds then?
And what happens to them if you were not fast rolling them?

Grey area. The wording of plasma guns suggests the intention is you lose the remaining shots. But I doubt anyone would play it that way.

So what if it fires the AC the ancient allows the lascannon to shoot and in doing so the pred takes damage and drops a BS level

are those sponson shots at the lower bs

The rules dont give instructions how to handle these situations. GW needs to clarify this in future errata. Until then talk to your opponent how to handle this situation.

 Latro_ wrote:
So what if it fires the AC the ancient allows the lascannon to shoot and in doing so the pred takes damage and drops a BS level

are those sponson shots at the lower bs

Needs clarification.

Basically the shooting rules don't take into account that something like the Ancient can happen, and the Ancient's rules don't explain how to deal with it either.

General rule is to shoot attacks one by one, and a change in BS is instantaneous so would immediately affect the rest of the shots with that weapon. That much is clear RAW.

What isn't clear RAW is what to do about fast rolling, as technically you are allowed to fast roll.

This is HIWPI- it shoota all its shots and is removed. Because it in universe wouldn’t fire all its guns one at a time. That’s why they have you declare all your targets for a model. Because you could in real life wait and see how your turret gunner got on. The turn is there to represent a specific amount of time. The predator doesn’t move up the battlefield, stop and pop off its guns one at a time and then wait a second while the enemy shoots back. It all happens at once. So I would resolve the predators shots and then the lascannon then finish off the predator. Easy.

Andykp wrote:
This is HIWPI- it shoota all its shots and is removed. Because it in universe wouldn’t fire all its guns one at a time. That’s why they have you declare all your targets for a model. Because you could in real life wait and see how your turret gunner got on. The turn is there to represent a specific amount of time. The predator doesn’t move up the battlefield, stop and pop off its guns one at a time and then wait a second while the enemy shoots back. It all happens at once. So I would resolve the predators shots and then the lascannon then finish off the predator. Easy.

What would make sense in the real world has no bearing on the 40k ruleset

Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k ruleset.

Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).

What BS would the Pred use for the rest of its shots if it wasn't killed but reduced to 1 wound?

if everything is fired simultaneous it would be at Full BS

if it's sequenced it would be lowered for the remainder of its shooting.

I'm aware that it is HIWPI but I'm of the opinion that it fires all at same time and is resolved in order ... then wounded after.

....

same applies to a CC unit with different weapons attacking a daemon prince with suppurating plate ... the unit takes wounds so one guy dies as he is swinging ... does he attack "as it's simultaneous" or is he dead as he swings

Nothing is simultaneous in 40k. Anything that would be is instead sequenced.