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I'm curious if anyone has any fun combinations they're tried with the Custom Hero rules from Chapter Approved.
I'm not looking for the most breakable ones, because those generally aren't very fun and mostly just exploit the fact that there's no limits on what characters can take the upgrades.
(For the cheesiest build: Imperial Knight Castellan with Ion Bulwark as the warlord trait, +1 to Invuln and Toughness, +1 Ballistic Skill, and allow it to target characters that aren't the closest model. You've got a permanent T9 3++ that hits on 2s and can snipe warlords. If you're going for a mighty hero, add 1 damage to all its ranged attacks and give re-rolls on hits of 1. For a legendary hero, toss on Stealthy and halve the damage it takes.
Other optional cheese involves doubling the shots from Valiant's harpoon.)
I'd personally realign those.
Reducing damage by half is (probably) more useful than +1T
But my group just rolled. We combined all tables into a d12d6. With the exceptions:
- psychic tree became a d6 over d3
- both 2d6 (11 options) trees gained 1 more option (pick whatever you want from this table)
- and any 12 rolled could be changed to a value between 1-11
Because as you pointed out. It's very easy to cheese.
Without a value to add, it's a neat but somewhat pointless table. The abilities are nowhere near balanced with eachother. As always, they can be abused like crazy.
So you need a couple of things:
1) Some kind of points cost, be it actual points or percentages (possibly breaking that table up into various "levels")
2) You need a mechanic to randomize what you get, particularly if you're using them in campaigns. You should be able to pick the concentration (i.e. "I want shooting skills") but then it should be randomized to avoid the ever-present meta-cheesing bs.
I don't think anyone would ever want to play against a Knight Castellan character which is -1 to hit, suffers only 50% damage, and has a 5+ feel-no-pain, etc. We made up a custom set of tables 4-5 months ago which generally have some of the similar abilities listed, but they're far more balanced and we add X cost per trait, etc. So, it's a neat table, but borderline useless without some rules or agreed practices.
Elbows wrote: Without a value to add, it's a neat but somewhat pointless table. The abilities are nowhere near balanced with eachother. As always, they can be abused like crazy.
So you need a couple of things:
1) Some kind of points cost, be it actual points or percentages (possibly breaking that table up into various "levels")
2) You need a mechanic to randomize what you get, particularly if you're using them in campaigns. You should be able to pick the concentration (i.e. "I want shooting skills") but then it should be randomized to avoid the ever-present meta-cheesing bs.
I don't think anyone would ever want to play against a Knight Castellan character which is -1 to hit, suffers only 50% damage, and has a 5+ feel-no-pain, etc. We made up a custom set of tables 4-5 months ago which generally have some of the similar abilities listed, but they're far more balanced and we add X cost per trait, etc. So, it's a neat table, but borderline useless without some rules or agreed practices.
I think the issue with randomizing is that you end up with one of two problems:
Either the randomization creates the possibility of rolling useless abilities, (Getting +1 To BS on a Space Marine captain, for example,) or you end up with a situation where there are no bad rolls. (For example, if we pooled all of the "Durability" buffs together, then a hypothetical Knight player could just roll on the durability options over and over until he's left with the same stacked buffs I mentioned above.)
If I'm going to be using a character for more than one game, (say, for an entire campaign) I don't want the possibility of being shafted by bad dice.
Which is why I'm more interested in coming up with fun and interesting combinations than I am with the most powerful ones.
i like to use 10% of the model's cost per ability if random rolled, but if picked its 10% per ability/per ability so if you pick 1 its 10% but if you pick two abilities its 40%, 3 abilties is 90%, etc.
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Oberron wrote: i like to use 10% of the model's cost per ability if random rolled, but if picked its 10% per ability/per ability so if you pick 1 its 10% but if you pick two abilities its 40%, 3 abilties is 90%, etc.
That seems... Very poorly balanced. Some abilities are worth more than 10% of a model's cost, but no combination of three abilities is worth doubling any model's cost. (Why take a Castellan with half damage, 5+ FNP, and a permanent 3++ when you could just take two Castellans and get the same durability with double the firepower?)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Oh, and it's a bad deal for random rolls too. Ask any Chaos player from 7th edition if they would be willing to pay 10% of a model's cost for a Boon of Mutation.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/07 03:30:33
Elbows wrote: Without a value to add, it's a neat but somewhat pointless table. The abilities are nowhere near balanced with eachother. As always, they can be abused like crazy.
So you need a couple of things:
1) Some kind of points cost, be it actual points or percentages (possibly breaking that table up into various "levels")
2) You need a mechanic to randomize what you get, particularly if you're using them in campaigns. You should be able to pick the concentration (i.e. "I want shooting skills") but then it should be randomized to avoid the ever-present meta-cheesing bs.
I don't think anyone would ever want to play against a Knight Castellan character which is -1 to hit, suffers only 50% damage, and has a 5+ feel-no-pain, etc. We made up a custom set of tables 4-5 months ago which generally have some of the similar abilities listed, but they're far more balanced and we add X cost per trait, etc. So, it's a neat table, but borderline useless without some rules or agreed practices.
I think the issue with randomizing is that you end up with one of two problems:
Either the randomization creates the possibility of rolling useless abilities, (Getting +1 To BS on a Space Marine captain, for example,) or you end up with a situation where there are no bad rolls. (For example, if we pooled all of the "Durability" buffs together, then a hypothetical Knight player could just roll on the durability options over and over until he's left with the same stacked buffs I mentioned above.)
If I'm going to be using a character for more than one game, (say, for an entire campaign) I don't want the possibility of being shafted by bad dice.
Which is why I'm more interested in coming up with fun and interesting combinations than I am with the most powerful ones.
Sure, and ideally that's what normal people would do...but if you're going to introduce it to a gaming group you need safeguards built in. You inevitably end up with "that guy" who thinks the worlds most powerful combination is just fluffy.
Oberron wrote: i like to use 10% of the model's cost per ability if random rolled, but if picked its 10% per ability/per ability so if you pick 1 its 10% but if you pick two abilities its 40%, 3 abilties is 90%, etc.
That seems... Very poorly balanced. Some abilities are worth more than 10% of a model's cost, but no combination of three abilities is worth doubling any model's cost. (Why take a Castellan with half damage, 5+ FNP, and a permanent 3++ when you could just take two Castellans and get the same durability with double the firepower?)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Oh, and it's a bad deal for random rolls too. Ask any Chaos player from 7th edition if they would be willing to pay 10% of a model's cost for a Boon of Mutation.)
its not perfect i admit, but its more for preventing explotiables on already super strong characters that are normally priced at a decent amount and makes cheaper normally weaker characters get an extra boon or so for next to nothing.
(my group also limits it to a single character with the custom hero builds)
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Elbows wrote: Without a value to add, it's a neat but somewhat pointless table. The abilities are nowhere near balanced with eachother. As always, they can be abused like crazy.
So you need a couple of things:
1) Some kind of points cost, be it actual points or percentages (possibly breaking that table up into various "levels")
2) You need a mechanic to randomize what you get, particularly if you're using them in campaigns. You should be able to pick the concentration (i.e. "I want shooting skills") but then it should be randomized to avoid the ever-present meta-cheesing bs.
I don't think anyone would ever want to play against a Knight Castellan character which is -1 to hit, suffers only 50% damage, and has a 5+ feel-no-pain, etc. We made up a custom set of tables 4-5 months ago which generally have some of the similar abilities listed, but they're far more balanced and we add X cost per trait, etc. So, it's a neat table, but borderline useless without some rules or agreed practices.
I think the issue with randomizing is that you end up with one of two problems:
Either the randomization creates the possibility of rolling useless abilities, (Getting +1 To BS on a Space Marine captain, for example,) or you end up with a situation where there are no bad rolls. (For example, if we pooled all of the "Durability" buffs together, then a hypothetical Knight player could just roll on the durability options over and over until he's left with the same stacked buffs I mentioned above.)
If I'm going to be using a character for more than one game, (say, for an entire campaign) I don't want the possibility of being shafted by bad dice.
Which is why I'm more interested in coming up with fun and interesting combinations than I am with the most powerful ones.
Sure, and ideally that's what normal people would do...but if you're going to introduce it to a gaming group you need safeguards built in. You inevitably end up with "that guy" who thinks the worlds most powerful combination is just fluffy.
I think a better way to balance would just be to limit how many, and which, abilities can be taken.
If you get rid of the "Target characters" ability altogether and reduce how many upgrades can be taken, (Say, Titanic models get 1, 2, or 3 abilities depending on how much of a hero they are, and vehicles get 2, 4, or 6,) you'll prevent cheese.
You could also limit how many of each type can be taken - Say, a normal hero can only take one stat upgrade, one weapon upgrade per weapon, and only one special ability of the same type. (Divided into categories like "Auras", "Melee buffs", "Shooting buffs", "Durability buffs", etc.) Mighty heroes could get two from any single category, OR two for one weapon, OR two stat upgrades. Legendary heroes could get up to three of the same type, and two in any other type, since they're legendary and all.)
Oberron wrote: i like to use 10% of the model's cost per ability if random rolled, but if picked its 10% per ability/per ability so if you pick 1 its 10% but if you pick two abilities its 40%, 3 abilties is 90%, etc.
That seems... Very poorly balanced. Some abilities are worth more than 10% of a model's cost, but no combination of three abilities is worth doubling any model's cost. (Why take a Castellan with half damage, 5+ FNP, and a permanent 3++ when you could just take two Castellans and get the same durability with double the firepower?)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Oh, and it's a bad deal for random rolls too. Ask any Chaos player from 7th edition if they would be willing to pay 10% of a model's cost for a Boon of Mutation.)
its not perfect i admit, but its more for preventing explotiables on already super strong characters that are normally priced at a decent amount and makes cheaper normally weaker characters get an extra boon or so for next to nothing.
(my group also limits it to a single character with the custom hero builds)
I mean, I could give some upgrades to a Canoness who costs less than 50 points, but I'd still be doubling her cost when I could just buy a second one. "Next to nothing" isn't really next to nothing when I can just buy another model of the same type.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/07 03:53:19
All I know is that I can finally make an Archon that can kill stuff in combat, and a Death Guard Terminator Lord that actually has toughness 5 and disgustingly resilient.
You have no idea how much it drives me nuts that some death guard units don’t have added toughness and disgustingly resilient. Consistency GW, please exercise some consistency.
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi
Sterling191 wrote: A Tallarn Punisher Russ Commander doing 3 damage per shot with a mortal wound on a roll of a 6+ is always a fun time.
Mortal Wounds coming straight from the bullet hose! Ive never had to roll to wound with that trait, nothing survives if you roll both turret shots before resolving wounds
Ive thought about trading it for some AP instead, my collection of enemy tears is getting out of hand. Either the direct weapon modification, or the bubble that proc's on a 6+ to hit.
Trying out a Ogryn Bodyguard build too, still trying to balance the statline buffs and the weapon upgrades. Nothing crazy for him, just a freaking tank on 2 legs. Played him in a narrative match against Nids, and him and his 2 unheroic friends pulverized anything they could get their hands on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/13 06:35:52
Discipline a heretic, and he'll be loyal for a moment. Put him to the flame, and he'll be loyal for the rest of his life
Oberron wrote: i like to use 10% of the model's cost per ability if random rolled, but if picked its 10% per ability/per ability so if you pick 1 its 10% but if you pick two abilities its 40%, 3 abilties is 90%, etc.
That seems... Very poorly balanced. Some abilities are worth more than 10% of a model's cost, but no combination of three abilities is worth doubling any model's cost. (Why take a Castellan with half damage, 5+ FNP, and a permanent 3++ when you could just take two Castellans and get the same durability with double the firepower?)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Oh, and it's a bad deal for random rolls too. Ask any Chaos player from 7th edition if they would be willing to pay 10% of a model's cost for a Boon of Mutation.)
Yeah, the 10 points was already iffy as is. Anything above that it would've been another useless upgrade.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Also, can a Knight be a custom hero? Does it have the <Character> tag and is not named?
I'd personally argue no (the way you give it the tag is via a strategem that has to played after the game begins, whereas the timing of the custom character build is prior to the game beginning) but it's unclear.
Also, can a Knight be a custom hero? Does it have the <Character> tag and is not named?
I'd personally argue no (the way you give it the tag is via a strategem that has to played after the game begins, whereas the timing of the custom character build is prior to the game beginning) but it's unclear.
That's not the only way to gain a tag. One Knight in each Super Heavy Detachment can be a character too.
Succubus, Victoria Malver, Legendary Hero.
-Blast Pistol, Archite Glaive, Blood Glaive (Relic).
1: Heroic: Heroic Intervention, 6", Move 6".
2: Stealth Assault: No Overwatch for enemy unit.
3: Hard To Kill: RTW of 1,2,3 fail against this model.
4: Swift Strike: Always Go First in Fight Phase (turns off vs same effect)
5: Swift Advance: Advance 6" rather than D6.
6: Indomitable: Damage this model suffers is halved (Round up)
7: Ferocious Combatant: +1 to Attack (A) Characteristic.
8: Strike and Fade: After this model has fought in the fight phase, it can immediately pile in D3+3" in any direction, not just towards,
the closest enemy model.
Cult Of The Red Grief
Units with this obsession can charge in the same turn in which they Advanced.
In addition, you can re-roll failed charge rolls for units with this obsession.
Combat Drug
Grave Lotus: +1 to Strength Characteristic. Optional +2 with stratagem (S8!!!)
-Warlord Trait- Hyper Swift Reflexes (Red Grief)
+1 to INV Saving Throws for your Warlord.
Fun Times be had.
Side Note: Does number 8 allow you to leave combat before enemy attacks LUL. If so KAPPA/Darude Sandstorm
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 13:58:54
The choosing only a few is more interesting, rather than having your cake and eating it too.
Nah I wanna go all in and make Awesome personal characters for an extended campaign.
Also it is not as powerful as tin the book because I wrote rules to combine units gaining experience with Custom Characters.
So only characters gain xp. They will gain perk choices at specific ranks. You warlord if not a named character starts with 1 perk choice.
This is also applied to Vigilus Campaign Mod I made. You only have 8 perks in like round 5/6.
Elbows wrote: Sure, but genuine question - do you think that character is fun? Do you think any of your opponents would enjoy playing against that?
Exactly. This piling of rules goes hand in hand with Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters we've all grown to hate. People accuse the Ultramarines characters of being Mary Sues, but name one of them with as many rules piled onto a single model like that!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Elbows wrote: Sure, but genuine question - do you think that character is fun? Do you think any of your opponents would enjoy playing against that?
Well the concept is that, the rules I made allows everyone to make their non named characters go super saiyan if they want to. So all is fair in love and war etc!
I understand some people dislike like that element so I would talk with them about what they want/expect from these fun narrative games we play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/16 23:16:43
I'm just genuinely amazed you consider what you posted above to be "fun and narrative", but I suppose people have vastly different definitions or vocabulary.
Due to wargear limitations, my personal OC Character is actually impossible to create "accurately" without using the Chapter Approved rules (and even with them, there still things that simply can never work without homebrew) - however, this is my attempt at creating him in this way.
Chapter Master Hadris Aurelius (Hero), Commander of the Dawn Blades, Lightbearer Space Marine Captain, armed with relic blade and grav-pistol - Divine Protection (+1 invuln) - Heroic Constitution (+1 Wound) - Ferocious Combatant (+1 Attack) - Artificer Weapon: Grav-pistol (+1 Damage)
Explanations:
Spoiler:
So, in short Aurelius is a disgraced ex-Ultramarine Acting-Captain, who lost a massive amount of troops due to betrayal from a rival Imperial commander, and essentially went MIA after the battle. Following Guilliman's return, Aurelius is recovered in a ruined saviour pod, and after Guilliman sees potential in Aurelius, is one of the first marines to become one of the Rubicon Primaris. Armed with a storm shield; the mastercrafted grav-pistol Litura; and the famed sword "Dawn", carried by an ancient hero of the Horus Heresy and recovered by Aurelius himself; he is given a new Chapter to lead into the Indomitus Crusade and beyond.
Fluff out of the way, here's the crunch. Because it's impossible for a Primaris Captain to carry anything other than a bolt weapon of some kind alongside their power sword, I had to choose what I wanted to compromise on - getting that relic grav pistol and wasting points in manually adding the Primaris +1 Wound and Attack (and still not getting the <Primaris> keyword), or ignoring the pistol (which I do anyways to be fair) and just using a Primaris Captain, spending the extra points I save on making the power sword more relic-y. In the end, I chose accuracy, and went with the former.
- Representing storm shields isn't too hard, what with the +1 invuln from Divine Protection, so this would always be taken. - Ferocious Combatant and Heroic Constitution are the biggest point sink here, but they perfectly match the "Primaris" enhancement, so were taken. Of course, they still don't grant me the <Primaris> keyword, but I can either request to houserule it, or it hardly ever comes up anyways. - Artificer Weapon is probably the only real "choice" option. While the sword is Aurelius' symbol of office and the object that links my 30k army, my 40k Ultramarines, and my Dawn Blades armies together, I felt that it's "fancy" status was already represented by the relic blade entry. Thus, the grav-pistol should have it.
If I chose to elevate Aurelius to "Mighty Hero" status, then I'd probably take more flavour bonuses, probably something like Heirloom (on a 6 to hit, do two hits) on the Relic Blade (makes sense, considering that's exactly what it is), Indomitable (halve any damage taken - he used to be armed with the Shield Eternal, I feel that this may help reflect that!), or Final Strike (after losing last wound, do D3 Mortal Wounds on a unit within 3" on a 2+ - something he's demonstrated in my headcanon of him).
I don't think I'd ever go as far as Legendary Hero on him - that's for Calgar, Yarrick, and Guilliman equivalents, and Aurelius ain't that notable yet!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/17 11:03:58
Like the mounted commissar one hawky. Works very well.
Balance isn’t an issue for these rules because they are supposed to be fun and used to make themic characters. They are designed to be used by easing going gamers who want to tell a story.
In my group I’ve made one character with 8 upgrades but he is a super star in the narrative and doesn’t turn up often, only in big big battles. And I decided to pay a couple more power levels for him. Simple. Balanced.
If you are chilled about it and enjoy the story they work great. If I ever played smudge I would happily let him bring a primaris captain with grav pistol and storm shield. It’s a nice story he’s come up with and would make my game more enjoyable and immersive.
The choosing only a few is more interesting, rather than having your cake and eating it too.
I agree totally. I’m going to use them to make my guard junior officer a better fighter than the senior officer. He is more a an incompetent type with rank from privilege. More fun. To me you would need a good back story to justify that succubus character. Not just a name.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 13:08:27
I added +1 STR and and damage to the powersword on my troupe master, auto run 6 inches, and saved 2 command points to let him allow rerolls of one in the fight phase for allies. (I always run him as my warlord with the great harlequin boost, the starmist raiment and player of twilight carried over from last edition.)
Personally I've been asking for something like this since 5th ed. Glad to see some fun personilization possibilities thrown into the game. I'm gonna make me some interesting inquisitors. I do feel like certain characters kind of take on a life of their own once you've played a bit, nice to have some rules you can use to represent that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 13:17:16
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
Discipline a heretic, and he'll be loyal for a moment. Put him to the flame, and he'll be loyal for the rest of his life
), yet still powerful.
Neutran Panzergrenadiers, 
Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, 
Order of the Silver Hand
