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Looked through a little bit last night and this morning. My first impression is that to run all of what we want, most people will need at least 60 Clanrats or 30 Stormvermin to fill out the require Battleline units. I was a little disappointed that, for example, Gutter Runners couldn't be Battleline if the general was Eshin, but ALL of the other models besides a Masterclan or Eshin model is the general. Really limiting Clan specific armies, especially those who aren't Pestilens and Skryre.

While I wasn't surprised, I was also a little disappointed Skaven can't ally with anything but Nurgle, and then only if they're Pestilens.

It was reassuring that there are a good amount of Bravery mitigating devices in the book. Screaming Bell is on my general to try list for my Eshin army. The Warpseer Verminlord's command ability is another. The +2 for units of 10 or more is also very useful.

Nice to see the big heroes (I think) all have the 5++ save vs wounds and mortal wounds!

Seems like plenty of movement trickery available with the Gnawholes, Warp Grinder (hooray! no more rolling a 3+ for it, but just rolling D6 mortal wounds after they pop up!), and Skitterleap spells from the Grey Seers and Deceivers. In my last 8 games being able to zip zap all over the table has been a big factor in winning, or rather, when I cannot do that and the enemy can, I lose almost every time (been playing Legion of Azgorh lately).

Also seems like tons of magic and mortal wounds to dish out, good shooty ranged attack potential, besides the vast amounts of mass melee action. I'm excited to try these rats out in full force, first up will be the ninjas of Clan Eshin. I think their Clan specialty coupled with a Slinktalon battalion will be pretty darn nasty. I'll be maxing out on Gutter Runners, just need 20 more......besides like 80 Night Runners more Didn't think I'd end up with a horde army but looks like Skaven is hard to avoid being a horder army. Guess with 30 Stormvermin, 4 Verminlords or Thanquol and 3 Verminlords that could be a reasonably low model count army. Just not sure if it could capitalize on all the Skaven tricks, but maybe?

I'm verklempt, discuss, DISCUSS!

I have a strong impression that the best builds will start with 3 units of 40 clanrats (potentially replacing one with a max stormvermin unit instead), or 3 units of 40 plague monks if running pestilens. 20 clanrats just lacks any real hitting power, especially after they lose one model and thus their hit bonus. 40 is way more than double the effectiveness AND costs less than double the points. They are +1 to hit and wound, and from experience I can say there is little issue getting 30 models in range of 2" weapons. It goes from a chaff objective holding unit to something that will both tar pit and beat the snot out of anything else that costs 200 points, before buffs even get involved. 360 points gets some chaff, 600 gets three units that can actually do something on top of being a massive tar pit and holding objectives or even snagging enemy ones just by charging. Retreat & charge just makes things better since they can seriously encircle or just gum up your enemy's battleline.

Plague monks were already OP and are potentially the best infantry in the game now that they benefit from +1 to hit at 20+ and +1 to wound at 30+. Same advantages as above (minus retreat & charge) but with massive offense.

Either way the main weakness of swarms, battleshock, is easily negated via a screaming bell, plague furnace, or the endless bell, with inspiring presence and extra bravery from numbers being backups.

Pestilens has further benefit in synergy; the Congregation of Filth battalion needs 2+ monk units and a plague furnace; so 3 monk units you need for battleline and the furnace you were taking to support them anyways are already there. It will give those units 6+ fnp while they are wholly within 18" (so realistically, two of them) on top of the standard command point, artifact, and deployment benefits. All together it is 1180 points, which is a lot, but punches so far above its weight it doesn't matter.

Thanquol is also crazy, crazy good. No particular reason, he just does a lot of things well and does not cost many points for how well he does them.

I could go on for a while... I'll come back later.

Hmmm yes, excellent points on the 40 rat sized units. Ugh, sooooo much assembly and painting though. SOOOO much.

I don't forsee anyone's Skaven army getting best painted because of that, except maybe all Stormfiends. I think that's a viable build too despite the mandatory mixed weapons.

I'm not sure how much it will actually be seen because of that. Pestilens has had viable tourney builds for years but no one wanted to to deal with the 160+ plague monks it needed. Certainly my planned build avoids the swarms simply out of practicality even though I know it will be worse for it. It is very Stormfiend heavy though so it might get away with it.

Speaking of, Stormfiends keep getting cost reductions they do not need. Warpfire changed role from anti-elite to anti-swarm but actually got better. There are a bunch of ways to buff them. Weapon teams, to be frank, are a poor choice at best now because Stormfiends do what they do but with way more durability and melee effectiveness.

Consider what a ratling gun does at 80 points, but at 120 points a ratling stormfiend does that plus twice the wounds, 4+ instead of 6+, and with a good set of melee attacks to boot. A ratling team, warpfire team, and doomflayer put together are just a vastly poorer version of a fiend unit. Unless you don't have the full amount to take fiends there is little reason to go with weapon teams. Not that weapon teams are actually bad for the cost, just that when stormfiends are so much better why bother.

Our local stores are out of stock of stormfiends right now.

This is my surprised face.

 Malathrim wrote:
Hmmm yes, excellent points on the 40 rat sized units. Ugh, sooooo much assembly and painting though. SOOOO much.

I don't forsee anyone's Skaven army getting best painted because of that, except maybe all Stormfiends. I think that's a viable build too despite the mandatory mixed weapons.

Meh an army of fully painted clan rats straight deserves best painted for the sheer effort . still need to work on my 2-300 ish clanrats

pretty stoked for the new book. Found it fortunate that i didnt build doubles on my stormfiends now that there are build limits. Really stoked for the DOOMWHEEL buffs on speed and more more abilities on a lot of stuff that didnt have it like the warp lighting cannon.

I might do a Doomwheel army just because they are so fun! And I had an old short-tailed opossum who LOOOOVED his doomwheel, which ultimately was his doom, but that's another story.

Another thing I was expecting was more summoning potential, but there's not much at all actually. Guess they come with what hordes they have. Maybe we'll see one person with 400-500 rat swarms and giant rats in a Moulder army )

Looking at the battalions this morning, I'm definitely doing a Slinktalon. Maybe two, not sure if the extra relic is worth it (the Eshin relics are almost all one-use, but possibly worth taking, plenty in the Realms though).

Eshin will be my first focus (mostly have them right now), but using a Screaming Bell as my general because I can do that and still have my Gutter Runners/Night Runners as battleline. Then a Deceiver, and a big mass of Slinktalon, hopefully can fit another Deathmaster (assassain) and 2nd Deceiver in there too, or at least some Endless Spells, probably at least a Doombell for more anti-battleshock use.

The vortex seems seriously powerful. I've yet to test it but there is game-winning potential there.

All the early test reports I've read agree that the Vortex is powerful! Very powerful! Thanquol is also now a very powerful wizard and combat unit which goes well with his high 400 point cost.


Gnawholes are getting less raving about (which as they are free is a good thing probably); but I think part of it is that people forget about them or they are not quite yet used to using them to their full potential.

Little experience with the book yet since the guys playing it are still assembling.

However, the commonality is going to be the 40 clan rats x 2 and the stormvermin 40 model unit as the core of most things.

But the narrative piece of me likes that since that is a proper skaven army IMO.

Stormvermin are good but at 500 points for 40 they are a big chunk of an army; esp if a player then brings something like Thanquol or a Verminlord. So whilst they are solid I can see people varying the Stormvermin angle from time to time.

Also don't forget "pure" clan armies only work IF they are all with the same key word. So any Clan Pestilens or Skyre clans are going to have to use something other than Clan Rats.

To quote myself on plague monks from the other thread:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
A 40-man plague monk unit (double blades) charges. With 25mm bases they can fight in two ranks, so it is reasonable to say they get 20 models in melee range. Going with just the benefits the unit has for showing up:

+1 to hit for being 20 or more models
+1 to wound for being 30 or more models
+1 attack for charging (3 attacks per)
Re-roll hits for dual blades
6s to hit* have rend -1 from music
6s to wound* do an extra damage from banner

*Imagine how much fun it will be to keep track of those two abilities.

It works out to 44.44 damage mostly at no rend (a quarter of it is rend -1), so about 31 wounds against a 5+ save or about 24 against a 4+ save. Off a 240-point unit that has 40 wounds to chew through and is probably outnumbering you enough to capture objectives even if you're standing on them. With no buffs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Thanquol is also now a very powerful wizard and combat unit which goes well with his high 400 point cost.

Thanquol basically auto-casts a spell every turn. 3d6 drop the lowest and +2 (or +3 next to a gnawhole) on top of that. That bonus also applies to his other spell. He is also really durable with 14 wounds, 4+ armor, 5+ fnp, healing 1 a turn. His warpfire deletes 1w or 2w infantry, and does heavy damage to any unit with multiple models regardless (even just a 3 model unit will suffer an average of 6 mortals). He fights in melee. And he has a solid command ability.

 Desubot wrote:

Meh an army of fully painted clan rats straight deserves best painted for the sheer effort . still need to work on my 2-300 ish clanrats

Dipping is your friend. I made some 400 skavens easily back in 8th ed with good old dipping method. Sure no tournament winner but funnily enough might very well have been my best looking FB army.

Stormfiends aren't looking as quite the same eclispers as they were, though.

Not sure how I'm feeling about Skryre getting loads of ways to make their stuff efficient, as it's taking away from supercharging being a risk that you'd want to take for the jamminess to being "kill-kill much quick!".

Stormfiends got better. While the units can't specialize as much, they are cheaper and all the ranged weapons were buffed. On top of sparks benefiting them more now.

How do you make us of the clanrat ability to retreat and charge in the same turn?

The basic tactic would be putting clanrats in front of a hammer unit, then when the retreat do so sideways to allow the hammer unit to go in while the clanrat unit charges around the flank.

So I really like battalions and how they work in AoS. I am very happy the newer battletomes have gone back to having a wealth of battalion options even if many of them are sub par. The option is there and I see battalions as more of support for narrative/thematic armies anyways.

But wow is the new Skryre battalion (Warpcog Convocation) terrible. It is so terrible I am going to break down how terrible it is. To be clear I am more amused by this than anything.

To start we have the initial requirements; 60 points and an arch warlo k which buys you absolutely no benefit aside from the ability to take the enginecovens. Though TBF if you are running a skryre army you almost certainly had an arch warlock anyways, and he does trigger the within 13" abilities from enginecovens.

First up the Arkhspark Voltik enginecoven. 110 points and an engineer in exchange for increasing the damage of a WLC by 33% while that engineer is alive and within 13". Like the arch warlock you probably had the engineer anyways, so the cost is really 110 points to increase the damage of the WLC... But for 70 more points you could just take another WLC. And this is one of the better ones.

Gascloud chokelung. Engineer, stormfiends, two acolyte units, and 120 points to give re-roll hits of 1 while the engineer is alive and they are wholly within 13". But it's only stormfiend windlaunchers that are effective, and that weapon option is already poor since it replaces the far more powerful warpfire. So really it's just re-roll 1s on the acolytes, but for the cost you could get 10 more acolytes so unless there are over 60 of them in the enginecoven it is strictly better to do that.

Gautfyre skorch. For 140 points it lets you bring two units from the enginecoven in with a warp grinder. But just getting another warp grinder is 80 points and offers more flexibility on deploying from reserve. Enough said.

Rattlegauge Warplock. 120 pts, engineer, stormfiends, jezzails, and a ratling gun to get the same buff as gascloud only the stormfiends don't benefit at all. And jezzails are already re-rolling hits from their own ability (unless they moved, but with 30" range that's not going to happen much). So basically a bunch of requirements to gain a benefit to ratling guns that is much worse than just buying another ratling gun even if the maximum amount is taken.

Whirlblade Threshik. 130 points, engineer, stormfiends, doomwheel, and a doom flayer. The doom flayer is basically a tax here since it is barely worth half the points you pay for it. but this is still the only enginecoven that is actually good since it gives 3" extra move for the units within as long as they start wholly in 13" of the engineer. That's a nice buff even on the average 14" move of a doomwheel and helps it from being totally movement-screwed on a bad roll. But on stormfiends that is 50% movement increase on a unit that wants to get close for shooting/charging and cannot do either if it ran.

So the end result is that of five enginecovens four are worthless at best and one is decent if expensive. But I want to emphasize that those four are really REALLY bad. You are paying points for something strictly and mathematically worse than just taking more units in all plausible contexts. Not just kind of worse either, a LOT worse.

I think it's the sheer magnitude of bad that pushes them past dissapointing firmly into hilarious for me.

The sad thing is those battalion options just show that the points cost for battalions in general is silly. They really need another cost mechanism to run alongside points - esp once they get to the point where they want players to spend more points on "nothing" on the tabletop when they could spend less points; get more models on the table and get the same effect if not better.

Endless Spells were a step in the right direction - big fancy spells you pay points for but which appear right there on the tabletop as a physical model.

Free battalions and free abilities is also something I really don't want to see return and I haven't seen any currency or system that would let you freely take batallions that doesn't just continue to reinforce the false-choice parade that is AOS.

Eh, I don't think it's a flawed concept just that battalions are difficult to cost right even when you are really trying to balance things. Back when I was costing them out it really took a full year of doing it before I got the hang of things. And GW does not put in the effort balance their units correctly so it should be no surprise battalions are the same. When it comes to the latter they lean on the side of too high a cost, which I think is appropriate (given their lack of interest in balance).

auticus wrote:
Free battalions and free abilities is also something I really don't want to see return and I haven't seen any currency or system that would let you freely take batallions that doesn't just continue to reinforce the false-choice parade that is AOS.

I never said free, I simply said a different method of paying besides points.
That said I feel that AoS is a few years behind fantasy and 40K in terms of the model count on table. I figure its partly because the game is new (yes I know its got the old world behind it, but AoS is new and there was a big enough gap that many AoS armies in collections are new) and GW didn't want to totally swamp people with army building requirements.

But I still feel that things like command points and battalions should be separately pointed from army points. I just dislike the notion of taking hundreds of points worth of "nothing" in an army. Then again I've never had an issue with weapon changes and upgrades in 40K so perhaps I'm just balking because its a single big cost instead of " 1 point per unit" costs.

Battalions are essentially bundles of unit upgrades. It's only nothing in the sense that there is no model associated with it, but there is a long history in WHFB and 40k of units having upgrades like that. Look at 'Ardboyz and Scarboyz from 40k, or Big Uns from back in WHFB. It is saying "these units have an additional ability but instead of making you pay the cost whether you take it or not (like equipment) we will let you choose".

Hmm last i recall the Gautfyre skorch was super busted not because it could bring extra dudes but because it can get deployed just outside of 3" for basically free charges and shooting fire (which last i remember in the previous iteration of this tome, most people ran this with a bunch of warpfire stormfiends whom im going assume is cheesed with the weapons limit now).

Essentially yes the battallion is the equivalent of saying:

Take unit X for 80 points
Now for each model in Unit X, you can have this awesome ability for +5 points / model

Only instead of that they say "take a battalion of all this stuff for these points and you get this awesome ability"

And thats perfectly fine. So long as you aren't getting awesome ability for nothing or point costed so low that it might as well be nothing and is a false choice because you'll take it every time.

Yup that's what it did. Now you just spend 140 points to put two units with a warp grinder instead of one. Now you COULD spend 80 points on a second warp grinder to do the se thing but better; both units in reserve but without the restriction of deploying them in the same spot (and getting a second grinder to fight with) while still having 60 points left over.

So just bought the Skaven codex. Coming from 40k, what would I want for a pure Skyre list?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
How do you make us of the clanrat ability to retreat and charge in the same turn?

the clanrats are there to screen your hammers and valuable more fragile units from retaliation. So if they screen and get charged, they can retreat, while the hammer moves in, then they can charge so, that the enemy retaliation unit is again screened by the clanrats so that your hammer can go on for turns to come.

It can also be used to cover ridiculous distances with ground troops to capture objectives by outnumbering a low model objective grabber, retreat (+2") then charge is 8+2d6 movement instead of when running just 8+d6.

Arch Warlock or two, an engineer/bombadier or two, and most importantly however many stormfiends you are willing to run. At least 3 units of 3 to fill battleline.

So I got around to running the numbers on Stormfiend weapons. Short version; don't take windlaunchers, everything else is viable.

To start with windlaunchers, the average damage is somewhat poor. 1.5 average wounds, or 2 if targeting a unit of ten or more (bumping up to 2.25/3 if a spark is used). Having it hit better against large units does not do much because when looking for an anti-horde weapon the warpfire is better by far. Speaking of warpfire, it is now anti-horde instead of anti-elite but IMO it got better. Certainly it is incredibly strong. The only reason I would see to take windlaunchers is deliberately weakening a list (which to be clear, is a good reason).

Ratling cannons do not have high numbers either; 3.5 wounds average but only at rend -1, so 2.33 against a 4+ or 2.91 against 5+. However with a spark to add to the damage characteristic those numbers double (4.66/5.82) and perhaps more importantly the other weapon for that 'slot' is a melee one.

Speaking of, warp grinders. Obviously if you want to use their reserve capability you'll need them, though personally I wouldn't due to its unreliability coupled with gnawholes being available. However they are worth taking just for melee potential since the damage output is good.

As for the melee-only slot both are good; the doom flayers have a higher average on the charge, the shock gauntlets have higher damage overall (but are very inconsistent).