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So I had my squad of veterans back up by a watch master, who was about 3" behind the squad.

0-0-0-0-0

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My opponent chooses to charge BOTH, and he needs a 9" charge to get BOTH. He can make it to the first squad on a 6". He rolled a 7. He declared he won the charge, and moved his units. I said no, he failed the charge. Fail one, fail both. He showed me a video from Miniwargaming that made me think I was wrong, and I relented.

So then the pile in happens, and he moves his squad in such a way that he is now within 1" of my Watch master. I got heated at this point, because he failed the roll, but got the basic result of a successful roll out of it. Tying up both units, and denying my warlord a overwatch from the next unit behind that one charging in. Also forces him to fall back in the next turn but w/e.. Again, I didn't know the rules regarding multiple unit charges and how this works, so after stating I felt it was wrong, I gave in.

Then to top this all off, he declares my Watch master a melee target because two of his models are within 1 inch. I flipped out at this point, as he was getting every benefit of a successful charge, off of a failed charge. He ended up failing his attacks, but still. For the sake of the game I let it happen.

Can anyone explain how charge rolls against multiple units work? Because you should get the benefit of a charge if you fail the charge.

Thank you for any help. I can't find any videos by people I trust that say if you fail to make all your charge targets, you can still "succeed" on the charge. Further more piling in on targets you failed to charge and then getting a melee turn against.

I am by no means an expert on this, but my understanding is you cannot pile into a unit you didn't successfully charge.

As a result, he cannot get within 1" of your watchmaster off that roll.

HOWEVER - once the fight with the veterans is completed, he can then consolidate 3" and end up within 1" of your watchmaster. He does not get to fire overwatch, but since there is now a unit within 1" of him, HE can attack THEM (and since they already used their attacks this phase, they cannot hit back unless they have a special rule/strategem). So the person consolidating has to decide if it is worth allowing the watchmaster a free attack for the sake of tying him up in melee.


Hope this helps, and someone else let me know if I got this wrong.


---Wargboyz

So you are essentially saying he gets to pull off the charge, after failing it? Which range do you use to declare successful charge? One unit was 6", one was 9".

You can declare a charge against as many target in 12" as you like. All of them can Overwatch.
He than has to get within 1" of at least one of the target units for a successful charge. You were wrong here the first time.

Pile in happens in the next phase, so he had to charge all units before piling in. Sounds like he charged another unit after piling in?

The pile in has be finished closer to the closest enemy model, on a model by model basis.
He can use this to get into 1" of units that weren't charged. He then also can attack those models. You also can pile in attack back with these models.

Your opponent did nothing wrong (aside from the charge after a pile in if I didn't misunderstood you there)

Like Hans said above, the charge is sucessfull if one model ends within 1" of ANY of the declared charge targets. In this case, your veterans. Since he rolled a 7, each model can move exactly 7" anywhere they like (as long as one model is within 1" and they maintain unit coherency).

The Pile In happens after that movement, and allows every model to move 3", but they MUST move closer to the nearest model to them. In this case, your veterans are within 1-2", and the watchmaster is 2-3" away, so I don't think they can pile in to him. (Without actually seeing the board, I can't definitely say that some models might have been able to move 7" and end closer to the watch master).

After that they Fight, then Consolidate. Consolidate works the same as Pile In - 3" of movement towards the closest model. If all your veterans are dead, then the closest model should be the watch master. Otherwise, they have to move closer to veterans (again, an experienced player can position themselves to make the watch master the closest model, I would need to see the board to be definitive).

If they Consolidate onto the watchmaster, he can Fight (there is now a unit within 1" of him), but the enemy models cannot fight again (unless they have a rule/strategem).

So if there are two units, one is at 6", and the other is at 9", and my opponent declares he wants to charge BOTH, what does he need to roll to make a successful charge?

I would posit a 9, but apparently a 7 works?

Then, saying a 7 works, he "piled in" in such a way as he pivoted his unit on the axis of my unit, thus putting his squad of bezerkers BEHIND the first unit, and in direct base contact with my 2nd unit.

Now, this seems like a bs rule to me. If you FAIL to make the 9" charge, you shouldn't get a 3" move to the back of my unit, even though it NEVER broke the "Closer than..." rule.


Step one:

Bezerkers
xxxxxxxx
|
|
|
|6 inches
|
|
|
000000 squad of VETS
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|
|
# Watch master

Step 2, the Charge

xxxxxxxxx
000000
|
|
|
#

Step 3 - Pile in

00000
xx
xx
xx
# xx

Does that make sense?

Ok, it's impossible to edit this so that formatting doesn't take over and dress everything to the left....sorry. Just imaging in step to the zerkers are lined up around the right most vet, and then pivot off him around to my watch master.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if there are two units, one is at 6", and the other is at 9", and my opponent declares he wants to charge BOTH, what does he need to roll to make a successful charge?

I would posit a 9, but apparently a 7 works?

Then, saying a 7 works, he "piled in" in such a way as he pivoted his unit on the axis of my unit, thus putting his squad of bezerkers BEHIND the first unit, and in direct base contact with my 2nd unit.

Now, this seems like a bs rule to me. If you FAIL to make the 9" charge, you shouldn't get a 3" move to the back of my unit, even though it NEVER broke the "Closer than..." rule.

All he needs to roll is a 5 for a successful charge. If he rolls more he can do what you described, perfectly legal.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if there are two units, one is at 6", and the other is at 9", and my opponent declares he wants to charge BOTH, what does he need to roll to make a successful charge?

I would posit a 9, but apparently a 7 works?

Then, saying a 7 works, he "piled in" in such a way as he pivoted his unit on the axis of my unit, thus putting his squad of bezerkers BEHIND the first unit, and in direct base contact with my 2nd unit.

Now, this seems like a bs rule to me. If you FAIL to make the 9" charge, you shouldn't get a 3" move to the back of my unit, even though it NEVER broke the "Closer than..." rule.


Step one:

Bezerkers
xxxxxxxx
|
|
|
|6 inches
|
|
|
000000 squad of VETS
|
|
|
# Watch master

Step 2, the Charge

xxxxxxxxx
000000
|
|
|
#

Step 3 - Pile in

00000
xx
xx
xx
# xx

Does that make sense?

Ok, it's impossible to edit this so that formatting doesn't take over and dress everything to the left....sorry. Just imaging in step to the zerkers are lined up around the right most vet, and then pivot off him around to my watch master.

Every single model must pile in to end up closer to their nearest enemy model.

Hard to tell if that's the case, but might be.

The rules aren't weird, they're clear and straightforward, you just need to forget what you know from last edition and forget what makes sense what makes sense.

Just follow the fight sequence in the rulebook to every single letter

 p5freak wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if there are two units, one is at 6", and the other is at 9", and my opponent declares he wants to charge BOTH, what does he need to roll to make a successful charge?

I would posit a 9, but apparently a 7 works?

Then, saying a 7 works, he "piled in" in such a way as he pivoted his unit on the axis of my unit, thus putting his squad of bezerkers BEHIND the first unit, and in direct base contact with my 2nd unit.

Now, this seems like a bs rule to me. If you FAIL to make the 9" charge, you shouldn't get a 3" move to the back of my unit, even though it NEVER broke the "Closer than..." rule.

All he needs to roll is a 5 for a successful charge. If he rolls more he can do what you described, perfectly legal.

I still don't understand, how does a 5 succeed on a unit 9 iches away? Sorry for being dense, but this literally makes me angry how this works.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if there are two units, one is at 6", and the other is at 9", and my opponent declares he wants to charge BOTH, what does he need to roll to make a successful charge?

I would posit a 9, but apparently a 7 works?

Then, saying a 7 works, he "piled in" in such a way as he pivoted his unit on the axis of my unit, thus putting his squad of bezerkers BEHIND the first unit, and in direct base contact with my 2nd unit.

Now, this seems like a bs rule to me. If you FAIL to make the 9" charge, you shouldn't get a 3" move to the back of my unit, even though it NEVER broke the "Closer than..." rule.

All he needs to roll is a 5 for a successful charge. If he rolls more he can do what you described, perfectly legal.

I still don't understand, how does a 5 succeed on a unit 9 iches away? Sorry for being dense, but this literally makes me angry how this works.

You only have to succeed in reaching one of the units you declared a charge against in order for the charge to be successful. Since he successfully rolled high enough to reach the uinit 6" away, the unit had a successful charge. Since the charge is successful, the unit gets to pile in. Models must be closer to the nearest enemy model when they pile in, but that does not mean that model will be the nearest enemy model after the pile in; as long as he is marginally closer to that model which was closest at the start of the pile in, if he can move so that he's closer to another model after the pile in then for consolidation and the next turn pile in, the new model would be the closest model at that point. (This is assuming the veterans are the closest models at that point.) So, as long as he moves even slightly closer to the veteran he was closest to, , if he can get within 1" of the watch captain while also being closer to that veteran then it's a legal move, and he'd be able to attack the watch captain.

You'll unfortunatly have to stay angry, as the rules for charging and fighting are very VERY clear. As other have pointed out :

You first declare charge target. You can declare as many target as you want, as long as they are within 12'' of the charging unit.

(Then they fire overwatch)

Now you roll your charge distance. If that distance if enough for at least 1 model to reach 1'' of any of his charge target, then the whole unit can move the charge distance. This can be done in any direction, as long as : A. The first model actually reach 1'' of one of the unit declared as a charge target. and B. they stay in cohesion.

Now on to fighting. Pick a unit that either Charged or is within 1'' of an enemy unit, in order. That unit can fight.

(Yes, that mean that unit that succesfully charged can fight even if they are not within 1'' of an enemy unit. This can happen for a number of reason and is usefull to remember.)

Now one caveat is that unit that charged, can only target unit that they declared as charge target. Note that the rule does not distinct that they must have successfully charged. Just need to target and then reach.

Hope this helps make this clearer!

Problem is everybody, or at least of 99.9% of people skim through rules and grasp some basic understanding they think makes sense, based on what they think is reasonable and what they know from 7th edition, and play it like that.

You just can't do that with the charge phase and fight sequence. You have to, really have to, make yourself forget all about 40k CC and have to make yourself not think, and follow every word of the rule to the letter. All you explaine and ask about is cleanly accounted on the rules, and it all fits in a couple of paragraphs on one page on the book

VoidSempai wrote:
You'll unfortunatly have to stay angry, as the rules for charging and fighting are very VERY clear. As other have pointed out :

You first declare charge target. You can declare as many target as you want, as long as they are within 12'' of the charging unit.

(Then they fire overwatch)

Now you roll your charge distance. If that distance if enough for at least 1 model to reach 1'' of any of his charge target, then the whole unit can move the charge distance. This can be done in any direction, as long as : A. The first model actually reach 1'' of one of the unit declared as a charge target. and B. they stay in cohesion.

Now on to fighting. Pick a unit that either Charged or is within 1'' of an enemy unit, in order. That unit can fight.

(Yes, that mean that unit that succesfully charged can fight even if they are not within 1'' of an enemy unit. This can happen for a number of reason and is usefull to remember.)

Now one caveat is that unit that charged, can only target unit that they declared as charge target. Note that the rule does not distinct that they must have successfully charged. Just need to target and then reach.

Hope this helps make this clearer!

Thank you for taking the time to explain this.

The only part that would be questionable is if he could pile in closer to the watch master without being closer to the squad in front. The rest sounds exactly as the goofy melee rules are written.

 deviantduck wrote:
The only part that would be questionable is if he could pile in closer to the watch master without being closer to the squad in front. The rest sounds exactly as the goofy melee rules are written.

It would depend on the layout of the individual models, but I've done similar things. Remember, only one model needs to be within 1" of one of the charged units at the end of the charge for it to be legal, and succesful. Dash past the screening squad with a few models, make it past the halfway point and you can legally pile into the WM since it's the closest with a few models in the squad, even if you cant make it all the way.

You'd need to not pile in with some in the gap to maintain coherency, but its possible.

Sterling191 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
The only part that would be questionable is if he could pile in closer to the watch master without being closer to the squad in front. The rest sounds exactly as the goofy melee rules are written.

It would depend on the layout of the individual models, but I've done similar things. Remember, only one model needs to be within 1" of one of the charged units at the end of the charge for it to be legal, and succesful. Dash past the screening squad with a few models, make it past the halfway point and you can legally pile into the WM since it's the closest with a few models in the squad, even if you cant make it all the way.

You'd need to not pile in with some in the gap to maintain coherency, but its possible.

Edit: got my metric system all messed up

Should be doable if you plan it, especially with model nr two