The term "glass cannon".

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**Techpriestsupport**

I know a lot of things in warhammer games are referrd to as glass cannons and I know damn good and well what it means.

I am curious about something else tho. Did we warhammer players invent the term glass cannon or is it from somewhere else?

**ingtaer**

Pretty sure that it is used widely across gaming be it computer, RPG or TT etc. Very much doubt it originated with Warhammer.

**stroller**

Urban dictionary has many gaming references in its entry.

**BaconCatBug**

It's almost certainly a modification of the phrase Loose Cannon

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/loose-cannon.html

It probably has it's origins in the early tabletop gaming circles of the 1970s, Chainmail, D&D and all that jazz, but I wouldn't have any proof of that.

**Llamahead**

I'm actually fairly sure it originates from battlecruisers in the late 19th early 20th century as they were literally glass cannons designed to slaughter anything smaller than them but not to take a sustained pounding from something the same size. So early naval doctrine is my guess.

**Grimtuff**

BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost certainly a modification of the phrase Loose Cannon

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/loose-cannon.html

It probably has it's origins in the early tabletop gaming circles of the 1970s, Chainmail, D&D and all that jazz, but I wouldn't have any proof of that.

Um, no.

A glass cannon is something that is high damage output that is somewhat easy to destroy, not something/someone that is unstable.

**BaconCatBug**

Grimtuff wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost certainly a modification of the phrase Loose Cannon

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/loose-cannon.html

It probably has it's origins in the early tabletop gaming circles of the 1970s, Chainmail, D&D and all that jazz, but I wouldn't have any proof of that.

Um, no.

A glass cannon is something that is high damage output that is somewhat easy to destroy, not something/someone that is unstable.

... Yes, I know what a Glass Cannon is. If you'll read the original post, it asked "Did we warhammer players invent the term glass cannon or is it from somewhere else?"

My post was to provide a possible answer for that. The term "Loose Cannon" has existed since the 19th century. It stands to reason that the existing idiom was then modified in a snowclone-esque fashion into Glass Cannon, rather than it springing out of nowhere. Memes and whatnot. The term Glass Cannon was (again, probably since I cannot find any sources that say otherwise) used well before Warhammer was a thing, and probably arose during the early formation of Tabletop Pen and Paper RPGs.

However, searching the Google USENET archives, the earliest mention I could find was from 2003 regarding a Diablo build, so perhaps it's a lot more recent than that! https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!search/%22Glass$20Cannon%22$20before$3A$202004$2F01$2F01|sort:relevance/alt.games.diablo/aR8EaCSSD2U/UGsrc9S41EUJ

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

I don't know where the phrase originates from, but I heard referred to D&D character power gaming builds as early as the mid to late 1980s mostly around the 1st edition Oriental Adventures book. Most ninjas were often called glass cannons if I remember correctly.

I always figured the term came up when a D&D player wanted a descriptive fragile but power character. Glass is fragile and cannons are powerful. I wouldn't be surprised if some historical gamer knew about actual ships that had such weapons and applied the term to mages in Chainmail or some such thing.

**Tannhauser42**

I always figured it was a derivative of the boxing term "glass jaw".

**amazingturtles**

Interestingly I remember the ultima games had "glass swords", which could kill pretty much anything in one hit, but broke afterwards. Don't know if that has any connection to the term glass cannon or not, though. It does seem hard to find early usages.

**edwardmyst**

I also remember hearing the term far back in the 1980's. My memory is the term glass jaw being converted over to this meaning.

**Vulcan**

"Big gun with a glass jaw" was my recollection from the late eighties.

No idea when I first heard the term 'glass cannon' but it was certainly floating around in the late nineties, often to describe my HERO System characters...

**Azreal13**

BaconCatBug wrote:

My post was to provide a possible answer for that. The term "Loose Cannon" has existed since the 19th century. It stands to reason that the existing idiom was then modified in a snowclone-esque fashion into Glass Cannon, rather than it springing out of nowhere.

Taking one idiom and trying to claim its relationship to another that doesn't mean something even remotely similar purely based in the fact that they use the same word doesn't really "stand to reason" though, does it?

I'd suggest it's much more likely that as there's a long history of people making cannon out of various materials, including ice and leather, that the eventual development of a phrase that married the catastrophic impact of a cannon shot with the apparent fragility of a material for its construction was pretty inevitable. We could just as easily have ended up with "paper cannon" or "porcelain cannon."

**Ghaz**

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/85206/is-glass-cannon-a-generally-recognized-phrase

**LunarSol**

amazingturtles wrote:
Interestingly I remember the ultima games had "glass swords", which could kill pretty much anything in one hit, but broke afterwards. Don't know if that has any connection to the term glass cannon or not, though. It does seem hard to find early usages.

I first heard it in terms similar to this. "Useful as a glass cannon" with the idea that it was a weapon that would destroy itself when fired.

**huntingdog**

i believe it was coined by a young Napoleon Bonaparte defending a French chateau from a ravaging band of miniature poodle trainers and there ankle assassins. The young general ran out of patt'e to distract them away from the croquet game. Thinking quickly, he was forced to line up a number of champagne bottles on the verandah, and with a tear in his eye, belted each one in the bell end with his smoking slipper or was it a cavalry boot? Anyway the flying corks and shower of sparkling and delicious wine saw the peasants off, the savage (but cute) hounds followed there after. Hence the term "glass cannon" used as a carry all term for a feeble weapon especially in regard to miniatures. Not sure though, this could be completely made up.

**Genoside07**

I am forty something and the first time I can remember hearing the term "Glass Cannon" was describing an Imperial Guard army list. That was pre internet days.
Funny thing is the other game terms that get picked up and next thing you know it's everywhere.. Like a "Leaf Blower" list or "Godzilla" list. So I always took
it was part of that, just an older used term.

**Stormonu**

I remember first hearing it in my D&D games back in the 80’s, along with “one-trick ponies”. Well before the common usage of the term “Gish”.

**AndrewGPaul**

"common usage"? Amongstr Smashing pumpkins fans perhaps, but outside that context, what might "gish" mean?

**Lum**

amazingturtles wrote:
Interestingly I remember the ultima games had "glass swords", which could kill pretty much anything in one hit, but broke afterwards. Don't know if that has any connection to the term glass cannon or not, though. It does seem hard to find early usages.

Funny, I always have to think of the Crystal Swords in Diablo 2! Rather damaging, but low durability.

**BaconCatBug**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
"common usage"? Amongstr Smashing pumpkins fans perhaps, but outside that context, what might "gish" mean?

To quote 1d4chan:

Gish is a /tg/ term relating to character classes, and specifically refers to a character who is capable of both melee combat and magic with relatively equal adeptness.

Gish originated from Dungeons & Dragons, where the githyanki had an elite caste known as the gish; githyanki using the multiclassing option to become fighter/wizards of considerable lethality. The archetype stuck fast in the D&D munchkin consciousness and it has remained a fixture of /tg/ ever since. The concept is referred to in homage to the githyanki, who started it all... at least, if you were playing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons; the actual idea of the gish has been around since Elf was a class in Dungeons & Dragons.

Traditionally, most gishes are the result of multiclassing, or dual-classing, or hybrid classing, depending on edition. However, certain classes have increasingly been designed to support this from the ground up, due to certain inefficiencies in the multiclassing approach - most notably, the XP Tax. However, most "made" gish-classes have traditionally been "warriors, with a little magic"; examine the Paladin (fighter with some low-level Cleric spells and tricks) or the Ranger (a fighter/low-level druid blending). More melee capable mage types have been a rarity; the Swordmage of 4th edition D&D, Pathfinder's Magus, or the Bladesinger Wizard and Stone Sorcerer of 5e, for example.

The earliest "level 1 gish class" appeared in Basic D&D, in the form of the Elf racial class. required a minimum Intelligence of 9 to qualify for the character, and needed high Strength and Intelligence to gain bonuses to XP gathering. They had a D6 hit dice, started play with the Set Spear vs Attack and Lance Attack fighter manuevers, were immune to the paralysis attack of ghouls, and had a 1 in 3 chance to detect secret or hidden doors. Technically maxing out at 10th level, they gained a fairly small selection of mostly low-level spells, maxing out at 3 spells for each level from 1st to 4th and 2 level 5 spells upon hitting 10th level, but could keep gaining experience after 10th level to increase their attack rank, maxing out at Attack Rank M. At Attack Rank D, they gained the Fighter Combat Options and could make 2 attacks per round. At Attack Rank G, they halved all damage taken from breath weapons (quartering it if they passed their saving throw). At Attack Rank K, they could make 3 attacks per round.

**Grot 6**

Techpriestsupport wrote:
I know a lot of things in warhammer games are referrd to as glass cannons and I know damn good and well what it means.

I am curious about something else tho. Did we warhammer players invent the term glass cannon or is it from somewhere else?

MMO's. I don't know when, but I've been using that term for years since MMO's became popular. REAL old, like 20 or 25 years old....

**Frazzled**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
I always figured it was a derivative of the boxing term "glass jaw".

Indeed. A synonym might be glass hammer.

**Stormonu**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
"common usage"? Amongstr Smashing pumpkins fans perhaps, but outside that context, what might "gish" mean?

Gish is a fighter/wizard. It’s a throwback to the Githyanki “class” of the same name. It’s pretty much a glass cannon as well, as such a combination tends to few hit points and poor AC, but can throw spells that hit like a Mack truck.

**JohnnyHell**

The term is synonymous with “paper tiger”, a phrase dating back centuries. It’s just an update of an ancient phrase.

**Azreal13**

I don't see that. A paper tiger is something that looks vicious but is ultimately harmless. It's bordering on an antonym rather than a synonym.

**Bookwrack**

t's not synonymous with 'paper tiger' though, because the meaning there is something that looks fierce/strong/whatever (tiger) but has no substance behind it If tiger's were better remembered in the Imperium, I'm sure that the uplifting Primer would love to use the phrase "Orks are paper tigers. They may look tough and menacing, but they're made of mushrooms and when has a mushroom ever hurt anyone?"

.Likewise, it has nothing to do with 'glass jaw' because the point there is excessive fragility. "He's got a glass jaw - one hook to the mouth and he's going down."

The meaning of glass cannon/hammer is obvious - something that can hit hard but is ultimately fragile. When it was first coined is ambiguous, but it definitely predates warhammer by a long time.

**JohnnyHell**

Oh most definitely.

Maybe I’d always seen that phrase from a diff angle somehow, thanks for the splainy.

**Breotan**

Vulcan wrote:
No idea when I first heard the term 'glass cannon' but it was certainly floating around in the late nineties, often to describe my HERO System characters...

I also remember this term in the 80s with HERO but mostly used it in online games where you built/customized units for high damage output at the cost of defensive capability.

**Jimsolo**

I heard the term 'glass hammer' long before 'glass cannon,' although one assumes the latter is just an outgrowth of the former. 'Glass hammer' was certainly in use as far back as the early 90s, from what I remember.