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The new kit for CSM squads while beautifully sculpted is total trash in rules. The new CSM kit looks like it's pushing close combat equipped CSM, so let's compare the close combat capabilities of CSM to Intercessors.

CSM 5 man squad with bolter+chainsword - 78pts
puts out 11 attacks at str 4 ap -

Intercessor 5 man squad with bolt rifles - 85pts
puts out 11 attacks at str 4 ap -

Identical close combat ability.

Now for defense
CSM
5 wounds

Intercessors
10 wounds

Shooting
CSM
5 shots at 12 inches str4 ap-

Intercessors
10 shots at either 15 or 30 inches str4 ap-1


So for 7 points more vanilla marines get a unit that has exactly the same close combat ability while having literally double the wounds, and double the shots, at longer range with better ap.
Vastly superior in every possible way.


I wish GW would put someone who actually plays the game or at least reads the rules in charge of writing for them. Hell they even showed they're not against updating the rules with havocs, but they didn't touch anything else in the entire codex that needed fixing. You can tell whoever is currently running that show thinks CSM should do close combat, but doesn't even know the rules enough to realize that the army they designed isn't capable of doing what they intended it to do. They also seem too stubborn to listen to the massive player feedback on how bad chaos is over the past year.

CSM squads need something like every hit of a 5+ generates an additional hit in the first round of close combat. This wouldn't make them amazing by any stretch, and you'd still probably only see cultists, but at least they could do something and actually be better in close combat that tau.

The problem here is not the CSMs, it's that the primaris units have been made stronger to boost their sales/adoption.

If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Going by some of the user's posts in the run up to the GSC release, it is never too early to start complaining...

Is that CSM cost correct, btw? Given 78 is not divisible by 5, something looks off.

There's quite a bit in the new books to potentially make melee CSM work including +1A for outnumbering plus all what the Dark Apostle can do. We'll just have to wait and see.

 Dysartes wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Going by some of the user's posts in the run up to the GSC release, it is never too early to start complaining...

Is that CSM cost correct, btw? Given 78 is not divisible by 5, something looks off.

that's true I forgot I was on dakka for a moment..... clearly CSM are unplayable and people should start burning their models because just the sneak peaks haven't presented a game-breaking combo yet.

ccs wrote:
The problem here is not the CSMs, it's that the primaris units have been made stronger to boost their sales/adoption.

The problem absolutely is the CSMs and it's the same problem shared by the loyalist tacticals. They have a garbage stat line and garbage offensive output for their cost. You could remove intercessors entirely from the game and they would still be garbage options.

 Dysartes wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Going by some of the user's posts in the run up to the GSC release, it is never too early to start complaining...

Is that CSM cost correct, btw? Given 78 is not divisible by 5, something looks off.

It is not correct. 5 CSM are 65 points. He might have added a powerfist and told no one?

The OP's got the points wrong, but the premise is still reasonable.

If GW want people to run CSM rather than cultists they should have gone down a point, preferably two.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

ccs wrote:
The problem here is not the CSMs, it's that the primaris units have been made stronger to boost their sales/adoption.

The problem absolutely is the CSMs and it's the same problem shared by the loyalist tacticals. They have a garbage stat line and garbage offensive output for their cost. You could remove intercessors entirely from the game and they would still be garbage options.

This is unfortunately true. Intercessors not existing would have absolutely zero impact on the viability of CSM. They'd still be a poor unit in the current game.

The issue is essentially AP. It means that a 3+ save is not very valuable at all, and it means that units without AP on their weapons need to be damn cheap to be worth it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Going by some of the user's posts in the run up to the GSC release, it is never too early to start complaining...

Is that CSM cost correct, btw? Given 78 is not divisible by 5, something looks off.

It is not correct. 5 CSM are 65 points. He might have added a powerfist and told no one?

I don't think so - though I'd also query part of the ranged output, given this theoretical unit has boltgun & chainsword - surely the ranged output should be 10 shots at 12 inches or 5 at 24?

 Dysartes wrote:

I don't think so - though I'd also query part of the ranged output, given this theoretical unit has boltgun & chainsword - surely the ranged output should be 10 shots at 12 inches or 5 at 24?

No, they have pistols.(I think the OP mistyped, you can't have a bolter & chainsword.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

I don't think so - though I'd also query part of the ranged output, given this theoretical unit has boltgun & chainsword - surely the ranged output should be 10 shots at 12 inches or 5 at 24?

No, they have pistols.(I think the OP mistypes, you can't have bolter & chainsword.)

Ah, fair enough.

IMO all space marines across the bored should get an extra attack they are supposed to be generalist but them all suck in CC even their dedicated CC units other then smash captains.

I think the issue here is really that we're in the weird middle period before they stop selling regular Marines, just start to call Primaris Marines 'Space Marines' and do away with the idea of two types of Marine.

Then they can just make all Marines (Chaos or Imperial) 2W base and be done with it.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I think the issue here is really that we're in the weird middle period before they stop selling regular Marines, just start to call Primaris Marines 'Space Marines' and do away with the idea of two types of Marine.

Then they can just make all Marines (Chaos or Imperial) 2W base and be done with it.

Yeah but for the second wound what points increase should we also do? 4-8 points per model more sounds acceptable

Asmodios wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Going by some of the user's posts in the run up to the GSC release, it is never too early to start complaining...

Is that CSM cost correct, btw? Given 78 is not divisible by 5, something looks off.

that's true I forgot I was on dakka for a moment..... clearly CSM are unplayable and people should start burning their models because just the sneak peaks haven't presented a game-breaking combo yet.

I don't know if you know this, but the CSM codex has been fully leaked. So once again you guys are pretending that somehow a book that's already printed will magically change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Going by some of the user's posts in the run up to the GSC release, it is never too early to start complaining...

Is that CSM cost correct, btw? Given 78 is not divisible by 5, something looks off.

And I was right that ridgerunners suck wasn't I?

Although it took the rest of you about a week to finally admit they are suck. I realize you want to disagree on the internet, but maybe pick something you're not blatantly wrong about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
The OP's got the points wrong, but the premise is still reasonable.

If GW want people to run CSM rather than cultists they should have gone down a point, preferably two.

You're right, i had calculated 6 CSM not 5, so my points were off. But as you pointed out, CMS still have no use currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

You are mistaken, we have seen them.




- edited by insaniak -

Danny slag wrote:
CSM 5 man squad with bolter+chainsword - 78pts
Intercessor 5 man squad with bolt rifles - 85pts

Better comparison is probably 5 intercessors vs 5 marines with a power fist and plasma gun (or power sword, plasma gun, plasma pistol) - same cost, and CSMs are one of the 'ablative wounds for the wargear' kinds of squad.

 Stux wrote:


This is unfortunately true. Intercessors not existing would have absolutely zero impact on the viability of CSM. They'd still be a poor unit in the current game.

I wouldn't say that Primaris have zero impact on the viability of old marines. Clearly GW wants to give differing stats to Primaris to set them apart (probably for the better to sell the new hotness). The problem is cramming another class of unit into a very limited gaming system space.

I don't like the idea of it, but it does seem that the invention Primaris marines are forcing limitations on non-Primaris marine stats. Since CSM are for all intents and purposes spikey tactical marines they suffer the same fate but without a Primaris option that they should be taking (according to GW rules) instead of the marines many players bought years ago.

Off topic question if thats ok - Does kit mean a phsyical part you attach to your minis or what does it mean exactly? Thank you.

edit - Or does it mean new rules or some thing?

 Stormatious wrote:
Off topic question if thats ok - Does kit mean a phsyical part you attach to your minis or what does it mean exactly? Thank you.

edit - Or does it mean new rules or some thing?

It usually refers to the wargear options the unit may take on its datasheet which frequently aligns with what you can attach to it since a lot of people play "what you see is what you get" with regards to their models.

So if I'm understanding this right, there's a bunch of factions that have traits/strats that help CSM do better in melee. But will any of them be enough?

World Eaters: +1 Attack on charge (but better off just using berzerkers)
Flawless host: +1 hit on 6's, or +3 if you have the warlord trait. But that averages out to the same as just using emperor's children noise marines for only another couple pts each, and those also have music of the apocalypse and can use VotLW
Black Legion: +1 attack for 1CP if your unit outnumbers theirs, and lots of buffs from Abaddon.
Brazen Beasts: 6's to hit give ap-4
Red Corsairs: tons of CP, advance and charge, and tide of traitors for CSM
Iron Warriors: Access to fearless aura from a warlord trait.

Anything I'm missing? Of course there's other warlord traits/relics that will effect stuff, but this seems to be the main things. Would one of these + auras + the new prayers ever be enough to be useful in melee?
It seems the need for fearless is one of the biggest issues since you need to run units above 5 to benefit from a lot of buffs/strats efficiently. But marines are essentially the most vulnerable to morale. Abaddon and Iron Warriors are the main sources, and red corsairs have enough CP to afford to use the strat regularly. Any other options?

In a casual CSM vs Marines game, Brazen Beasts would help a lot.

The problem is movement. I mean if your untouched CSM unit magically finds itself within an easy charge range of a guardsman squad or a fire warrior squad, they should bully them in close combat. But how are they going to get there? And avoid being Greater Gooded to oblivion when they charge? You can buy Rhinos, but they are not free and you are still looking at an easily screened turn 2 charge unless they have conveniently walked what you want to charge towards you.

Pretty sure the only use Marines have is to take a boltgun, go to ground hopefully on an objective in or next to your deployment zone, in cover if possible, and just plink away all game.

Getting cool new models is not enough for some people. What can i say, CSW have like 5 named characters that have bad rules and are still metal.
`

Tyel wrote:
In a casual CSM vs Marines game, Brazen Beasts would help a lot.

The problem is movement. I mean if your untouched CSM unit magically finds itself within an easy charge range of a guardsman squad or a fire warrior squad, they should bully them in close combat. But how are they going to get there? And avoid being Greater Gooded to oblivion when they charge? You can buy Rhinos, but they are not free and you are still looking at an easily screened turn 2 charge unless they have conveniently walked what you want to charge towards you.

Pretty sure the only use Marines have is to take a boltgun, go to ground hopefully on an objective in or next to your deployment zone, in cover if possible, and just plink away all game.

And, for their points, cultists are still better at this role. Even with their points increase and how crap they are compared to Guardsmen.

CSM have always been a predominantly melee biased army, not just in this edition but throughout editions.

The problem stems from the fact they don't have the options necessary to make them effective at it outside of Berzerkers, and they are just the best of a bad thing.

From the halcyon days of 3.5ed CSM have suffered from badly written codices and more of late not keeping up with the competition. Point in case, it is better to put flamers / plasma on Raptors, a unit that was intially designed to be a shock and awe melee unit before Warp Talons were a thing.

Just my 2p

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Going by some of the user's posts in the run up to the GSC release, it is never too early to start complaining...

Is that CSM cost correct, btw? Given 78 is not divisible by 5, something looks off.

It is not correct. 5 CSM are 65 points. He might have added a powerfist and told no one?

No, he probably accidentally multiplied 6 instead of 5 by 13, because 6*13 actually is 78.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
So if I'm understanding this right, there's a bunch of factions that have traits/strats that help CSM do better in melee. But will any of them be enough?

World Eaters: +1 Attack on charge (but better off just using berzerkers)
Flawless host: +1 hit on 6's, or +3 if you have the warlord trait. But that averages out to the same as just using emperor's children noise marines for only another couple pts each, and those also have music of the apocalypse and can use VotLW
Black Legion: +1 attack for 1CP if your unit outnumbers theirs, and lots of buffs from Abaddon.
Brazen Beasts: 6's to hit give ap-4
Red Corsairs: tons of CP, advance and charge, and tide of traitors for CSM
Iron Warriors: Access to fearless aura from a warlord trait.

Anything I'm missing? Of course there's other warlord traits/relics that will effect stuff, but this seems to be the main things. Would one of these + auras + the new prayers ever be enough to be useful in melee?
It seems the need for fearless is one of the biggest issues since you need to run units above 5 to benefit from a lot of buffs/strats efficiently. But marines are essentially the most vulnerable to morale. Abaddon and Iron Warriors are the main sources, and red corsairs have enough CP to afford to use the strat regularly. Any other options?

There is a BL strat that gives all four marks of chaos simultaneously for a turn. I'm sure there's some whacky stuff in there.

Tyel wrote:
In a casual CSM vs Marines game, Brazen Beasts would help a lot.

The problem is movement. I mean if your untouched CSM unit magically finds itself within an easy charge range of a guardsman squad or a fire warrior squad, they should bully them in close combat. But how are they going to get there? And avoid being Greater Gooded to oblivion when they charge? You can buy Rhinos, but they are not free and you are still looking at an easily screened turn 2 charge unless they have conveniently walked what you want to charge towards you.

Pretty sure the only use Marines have is to take a boltgun, go to ground hopefully on an objective in or next to your deployment zone, in cover if possible, and just plink away all game.

Screens are a problem, but it looks like we're actually going to be in a decent position to clean them turn 1 with shooting thanks to the new rotor cannon. That's basically the ultimate anti-screen weapon in the game.

As for movement, we'd got red corsair advance and charge, which means a turn 2 assault. And then there's warptime, which will allow a turn 1 assault in some deployments (for a big 20man squad.)

Not sure any of this is enough, of course.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Tyel wrote:
In a casual CSM vs Marines game, Brazen Beasts would help a lot.

The problem is movement. I mean if your untouched CSM unit magically finds itself within an easy charge range of a guardsman squad or a fire warrior squad, they should bully them in close combat. But how are they going to get there? And avoid being Greater Gooded to oblivion when they charge? You can buy Rhinos, but they are not free and you are still looking at an easily screened turn 2 charge unless they have conveniently walked what you want to charge towards you.

Pretty sure the only use Marines have is to take a boltgun, go to ground hopefully on an objective in or next to your deployment zone, in cover if possible, and just plink away all game.

Screens are a problem, but it looks like we're actually going to be in a decent position to clean them turn 1 with shooting thanks to the new rotor cannon. That's basically the ultimate anti-screen weapon in the game.

As for movement, we'd got red corsair advance and charge, which means a turn 2 assault. And then there's warptime, which will allow a turn 1 assault in some deployments (for a big 20man squad.)

Not sure any of this is enough, of course.

Sounds about right.

Throw in an apostle and VotLW to make chainswords wound a Castellan on 4s...