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Hey Guys

Just wanted to put my list out there for people to take a look at. It's had a surprising amount of success boardside


Capt
Master crafted Bolter
Thunder hammer

Lieutenant
Chainsword
Master Crafted Bolter

Tactical Squad (10)
Combi-Plasma
Plasmagun
Lascannon

Tactical Squad (10)
Combi-Plasma
Plasmagun
Lascannon

Tactical Squad (10)
Combi-Plasma
Plasmagun
Lascannon

Captain
Master Crafted Bolter
Relic Blade

Chief Librarian Tigiurus

Tactical Squad (5)
Combi-Plasma
Plasmagun

Tactical Squad (5)
Combi-Plasma
Plasmagun

Tactical Squad (5)
Combi-Plasma
Plasmagun

Tactical Squad (5)
Combi-Melta
Meltagun

Devastator Squad
4x Missile Launcher
Armourium Cherub

5 Company Veterans
Chainswords and Boltguns

Roboute Guilliman

.........................................................
The 10 man squads deploy strung out for vantage point lascannons, keeping within Robby G's Aura.
The 5 Man Squads Take and Hold the midfield, often accompanied by captains
Company Vets Protect Guilliman
Devs take a building
Tiggy supports Guilliman with MOH and Master of Prescience
..........................................................

Had a lot of success... people don't bring enough firepower to deal with 64 Astartes and a Primarch...

Often sit back in turn 1, then depending on how aggressive my opponents play, counter with a push myself in turn 2/3 to rapidfire on their asses

GamerGuy

What types of lists have you played against with this? I can't see this working very well against Orks, Genestealers, Adeptus Mechanicus, Imperial Guard, Tau, or Knights.

You realize that most shooting armies have enough rate of fire to wipe your 64 Astartes Turn 1/2 right?

I mean I run a bloodletter bomb that will kill around 28 astartes/turn, and can fight twice for 3cp, and scarab Occult Terminators that will kill aroind 20 per turn. Since i can deepstrike/dark matter crystal them both there's nothing you can do to stop this, even with auspex scan and overwatch.

Then it's just a case of 4 daemon princes and the rest of my army beating down guiliman. And by far my list isn't the hardest matchup you'll have. As others have said, tau, knights, orks and gsc would be really tough.

I think this is a case of back to the drawing board. You need some less toys and more boys. Either some guard or admech would be useful. Or if you want to keep guiliman you need some heavy firepower in repulsors and hellblasters. Finally you need scouts/vanguard marines to screen for deepstriking.

Hellblasters or a Leviathan will help this list. You have Guilliman but nothing that can make the most of his aura abilities, just Tacticals. Against Knights or Custodes for example this list will struggle.

 small_gods wrote:
I mean I run a bloodletter bomb that will kill around 28 astartes/turn, and can fight twice for 3cp, and scarab Occult Terminators that will kill aroind 20 per turn. Since i can deepstrike/dark matter crystal them both there's nothing you can do to stop this, even with auspex scan and overwatch.

Then it's just a case of 4 daemon princes and the rest of my army beating down guiliman. And by far my list isn't the hardest matchup you'll have. As others have said, tau, knights, orks and gsc would be really tough.

I think this is a case of back to the drawing board. You need some less toys and more boys. Either some guard or admech would be useful. Or if you want to keep guiliman you need some heavy firepower in repulsors and hellblasters. Finally you need scouts/vanguard marines to screen for deepstriking.

I did the simulation. You would lose 20 of your bloodletters and only kill 5 marines if you tried to deep strike in and multicharge 3 squads of marines.

footfoe wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
I mean I run a bloodletter bomb that will kill around 28 astartes/turn, and can fight twice for 3cp, and scarab Occult Terminators that will kill aroind 20 per turn. Since i can deepstrike/dark matter crystal them both there's nothing you can do to stop this, even with auspex scan and overwatch.

Then it's just a case of 4 daemon princes and the rest of my army beating down guiliman. And by far my list isn't the hardest matchup you'll have. As others have said, tau, knights, orks and gsc would be really tough.

I think this is a case of back to the drawing board. You need some less toys and more boys. Either some guard or admech would be useful. Or if you want to keep guiliman you need some heavy firepower in repulsors and hellblasters. Finally you need scouts/vanguard marines to screen for deepstriking.

I did the simulation. You would lose 20 of your bloodletters and only kill 5 marines if you tried to deep strike in and multicharge 3 squads of marines.

Idk about that, 30 bloodletters get 61 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2s gets you roughly 50 hits, wound on 4s gets you 25 wounds, save on 6s leaves about 20 dead marines before they get to fight back. Overwatch might negate this a bit, but not enough to matter.

Edit: not to mention they can pile in and fight again after you swing

m3tal_h3llth wrote:

footfoe wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
I mean I run a bloodletter bomb that will kill around 28 astartes/turn, and can fight twice for 3cp, and scarab Occult Terminators that will kill aroind 20 per turn. Since i can deepstrike/dark matter crystal them both there's nothing you can do to stop this, even with auspex scan and overwatch.

Then it's just a case of 4 daemon princes and the rest of my army beating down guiliman. And by far my list isn't the hardest matchup you'll have. As others have said, tau, knights, orks and gsc would be really tough.

I think this is a case of back to the drawing board. You need some less toys and more boys. Either some guard or admech would be useful. Or if you want to keep guiliman you need some heavy firepower in repulsors and hellblasters. Finally you need scouts/vanguard marines to screen for deepstriking.

I did the simulation. You would lose 20 of your bloodletters and only kill 5 marines if you tried to deep strike in and multicharge 3 squads of marines.

Idk about that, 30 bloodletters get 61 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2s gets you roughly 50 hits, wound on 4s gets you 25 wounds, save on 6s leaves about 20 dead marines before they get to fight back. Overwatch might negate this a bit, but not enough to matter.

Edit: not to mention they can pile in and fight again after you swing

Bloodletters wound Space Marines on 3s not 4s, So it would be 30 wounds and average 25 dead Marines. i.e., >50% of the OP's army are gone in a single turn.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

m3tal_h3llth wrote:

footfoe wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
I mean I run a bloodletter bomb that will kill around 28 astartes/turn, and can fight twice for 3cp, and scarab Occult Terminators that will kill aroind 20 per turn. Since i can deepstrike/dark matter crystal them both there's nothing you can do to stop this, even with auspex scan and overwatch.

Then it's just a case of 4 daemon princes and the rest of my army beating down guiliman. And by far my list isn't the hardest matchup you'll have. As others have said, tau, knights, orks and gsc would be really tough.

I think this is a case of back to the drawing board. You need some less toys and more boys. Either some guard or admech would be useful. Or if you want to keep guiliman you need some heavy firepower in repulsors and hellblasters. Finally you need scouts/vanguard marines to screen for deepstriking.

I did the simulation. You would lose 20 of your bloodletters and only kill 5 marines if you tried to deep strike in and multicharge 3 squads of marines.

Idk about that, 30 bloodletters get 61 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2s gets you roughly 50 hits, wound on 4s gets you 25 wounds, save on 6s leaves about 20 dead marines before they get to fight back. Overwatch might negate this a bit, but not enough to matter.

Edit: not to mention they can pile in and fight again after you swing

Bloodletters wound Space Marines on 3s not 4s, So it would be 30 wounds and average 25 dead Marines. i.e., >50% of the OP's army are gone in a single turn.

Yeah sorry should have said, I always factor in re rolling 1s for DP as he flies up there and they daisy chain back so he gives them reroll 1s and reroll charges. So 28 dead marines.

Main point to was to illustrate that 64 marines without screen or deepstrike denial are dead in the water.

how exactly does the blood letter bomb work?

so far this list has done well against eldar, tau, crons, blood angels and guard.... placements is key though, it tends to be a case of ensuring anything killed in melee is swiftly avenged with the following shooting phase... your deepstrike based assault units don't work with good deployment and auspex scan... Gman also helps overtwatch A LOT...


it's by no means tourney standard, but it hits harder than people expect it to... sheer volume of fire coupled with steady saves (terrain is also a big deal with this list) actually gives this list a lot more kick than you expect on paper... most units have range synergy so its a matter of isolating and drowning enemy units


Edit: also worth mentioning; the 2 battalions come to 1450... at 1500 the list shines; and 1750 buys me a knight with shuffling...

Throwing my hat in, though I'm just getting into 8th after a bit of a hiatus.
1. I think that the unexpectedness of a marine horde army will take many off guard. I've always believed that the greatest tactical strength of Astartes is just the fact that they are friggin SPEHSS MAREENS. Running tac spam doesn't win many points in the flash department, but over half a company of marines at that point level shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Dakka seems to be a lot more ummm... prolific in this edition, though.

2. I'm not sure how the bloodletter bomb works, though it seems to have some sick synergy. My question is- given that it is a Melee bomb, wouldn't it require all of the marines to be sort of bobbed together to achieve that 45-50% butchers bill? Would not good tactical positioning mitigate that? Also, seems to me that said good positioning would go a long way towards board control and deep strike denial.

3. Back in the day, (waves cane while shouting 'get off my lawn!), you would bring a balanced list for all comers, a heavy skew (armor and such), or a horde skew. I think GamerGuy is throwing a bit of a curve ball with a non-horde horde army. I'd be interested to see how he actually maneuvers his men around the board.

 CATACLYSMUS wrote:
Throwing my hat in, though I'm just getting into 8th after a bit of a hiatus.
1. I think that the unexpectedness of a marine horde army will take many off guard. I've always believed that the greatest tactical strength of Astartes is just the fact that they are friggin SPEHSS MAREENS. Running tac spam doesn't win many points in the flash department, but over half a company of marines at that point level shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Dakka seems to be a lot more ummm... prolific in this edition, though.

2. I'm not sure how the bloodletter bomb works, though it seems to have some sick synergy. My question is- given that it is a Melee bomb, wouldn't it require all of the marines to be sort of bobbed together to achieve that 45-50% butchers bill? Would not good tactical positioning mitigate that? Also, seems to me that said good positioning would go a long way towards board control and deep strike denial.

3. Back in the day, (waves cane while shouting 'get off my lawn!), you would bring a balanced list for all comers, a heavy skew (armor and such), or a horde skew. I think GamerGuy is throwing a bit of a curve ball with a non-horde horde army. I'd be interested to see how he actually maneuvers his men around the board.

Bloodletter bomb is basically a character plus a couple of stratagems that give them crazy strength, and a fairly reliable charge the turn in which they drop. It it mitigated by deployment, terrain, and tactical list choices along with auspex scan. I won't go into 50 ways to stop it but being ready to defend against the multitude of turn 2 deepstrike charging units in this edition is kind of necessary.

Yeah, one of the first things I noticed is the 100% reliability of deep strike. I think that, with the sheer number of squads he's fielding, it would be fairly straightforward, at least at first, to deploy them such that the blood letters (or any army that has a heavy deep strike contingent) wouldn't have that 18" gap they need to land backfield. If he positions well using cover, he'll have a decent chance against them carving out a hole for them during turn 1. Spreading out would counter some of Guilliman's aura abilities at first, but denying the 'bomb' space to explode would, at least in my mind, take priority.

You should try this with indomindus vets. It will work a lot better. 30 inch double taps when you need it. Nearly twice as durable against ROF weapons. AP-1 on everything so nothing is getting a 2+ save.
The list I run is usually a variation of this.

Tiggy
Phobos libbi
4x 10x intercessors vets
Ancient banner
Relic levi

Robute

Then you have some points to play with.

You can forget hte levi dread and take 60 intercessors in 2 batallions. Throw in Clagar and a LT so you can have to 2 fronts as well (maybe even 2 banners)

Thats 2k though. 1850 I'd run the above list for sure.

 GamerGuy wrote:
how exactly does the blood letter bomb work?

It is 30 or less BLs, with a character buffing their Strength. At deployment your opponent says, "I'm spending CPs on Banner of Blood (an extra die on the charge) and the deep strike strategem, Denizens of the Warp." A Blood or Skull Master is their buffing character for added Strength for the unit. It's a nearly guaranteed charge (there'll be a reroll charge element called a Locus of Rage) , despite the SM strategem Auspex Scan, which, if you get the full bolter discipline from a 10 man tactical:

Using Auspex Scan: With 8 boltguns you'll roll 16 shots when the BLs are within 12" (we'll add plasma & LC later): hitting on 4s (due to Auspex Scan's rule) that's 8 hitting, 4 more for a BobbyG reroll. Out of 12 hits, 8 wound the BLs' T3. 6 die at their daemon save.
Add 4 PG shots and a LasCan. 3 hit, let's say all wound, yielding 2 more dead Blood Letters. From one squad benefiting from Aupsex Scan. 9 or so dead deamons on average, maybe 12 with some dice love?

If the BLs have 20 or more in the unit, they swing and hit on 2+. You'll kill 2 more on overwatch when they charge.

All that done, you're likely to be looking 20 or so still charging. They'll declare the charge on one unit of your line, call 'em Squad 1. And have a few models consolidate and pile into Squad 2, on the right or left to triple-trap (to prevent Squad 2 from using Fall Back) without declaring a charge on it. BobbyG steps up and kills 6 on your/his turn, or *their* turn if B.G. uses Heroic Intervention. The dozen or so on your turn will likely eat Squad 2 as B.G. clobbers them again, down to single digit numbers.

30 BLs in trade for 20 tacticals isn't great, but the foot print of the unit is massive, and in a good player's hands, that could be signnificant. Auspex Scan or the Aeldari Forewarned really can empty the 30 model punch down to 20, with luck. I ran this daemon bomb all last spring and over all, as scary as it looks, it can be mitigated with experience.

And Auspex Scan.

Hi there,

I really like what you are looking to do with the list, but have a few points that I'd like to raise to make it even better. They would be as follows:

Detachments
It looks like you're trying to field a pair of Battalion detachments, but with Guilliman in your list you would not be struggling for CP with just the one Battalion (11, rather than 16).

Is there anything you are particularly aiming to gain from 16 CP? If not, I would suggest removing the second Battalion entirely in favour of all, or some, of the suggestions below.

Damage Output
If you were to follow my suggestion to reduce your army down to a single Battalion, you could probably add another 10 man Devastator Squad to increase the amount of heavy firepower that benefits from Guilliman. This would stick to the theme of having a swarm of SM infantry.

You may also want to consider a Thunderfire Cannon. This sticks to the Infantry brief, while providing a stratagem that can slow down units that are charging towards you at speed.

Screening/Deepstrike Defences
If you take my suggestion from above, you would likely also have enough points to add scout squads to your army. If you would like to stick to double Battalion, you may want to consider switching your 5-man Tactical Squads to Scout Squads. Their special deployment allows you form a bubble around your army to protect you from Deepstrikers.

All you need to do is place units around your army so that there is no where the Deepstrikers can deploy that puts them 9" away from one of your units.


I hope that these points are helpful to you!

 Brothererekose wrote:

 GamerGuy wrote:
how exactly does the blood letter bomb work?

It is 30 or less BLs, with a character buffing their Strength. At deployment your opponent says, "I'm spending CPs on Banner of Blood (an extra die on the charge) and the deep strike strategem, Denizens of the Warp." A Blood or Skull Master is their buffing character for added Strength for the unit. It's a nearly guaranteed charge (there'll be a reroll charge element called a Locus of Rage) , despite the SM strategem Auspex Scan, which, if you get the full bolter discipline from a 10 man tactical:

Using Auspex Scan: With 8 boltguns you'll roll 16 shots when the BLs are within 12" (we'll add plasma & LC later): hitting on 4s (due to Auspex Scan's rule) that's 8 hitting, 4 more for a BobbyG reroll. Out of 12 hits, 8 wound the BLs' T3. 6 die at their daemon save.
Add 4 PG shots and a LasCan. 3 hit, let's say all wound, yielding 2 more dead Blood Letters. From one squad benefiting from Aupsex Scan. 9 or so dead deamons on average, maybe 12 with some dice love?

If the BLs have 20 or more in the unit, they swing and hit on 2+. You'll kill 2 more on overwatch when they charge.

All that done, you're likely to be looking 20 or so still charging. They'll declare the charge on one unit of your line, call 'em Squad 1. And have a few models consolidate and pile into Squad 2, on the right or left to triple-trap (to prevent Squad 2 from using Fall Back) without declaring a charge on it. BobbyG steps up and kills 6 on your/his turn, or *their* turn if B.G. uses Heroic Intervention. The dozen or so on your turn will likely eat Squad 2 as B.G. clobbers them again, down to single digit numbers.

30 BLs in trade for 20 tacticals isn't great, but the foot print of the unit is massive, and in a good player's hands, that could be signnificant. Auspex Scan or the Aeldari Forewarned really can empty the 30 model punch down to 20, with luck. I ran this daemon bomb all last spring and over all, as scary as it looks, it can be mitigated with experience.

And Auspex Scan.

Yeah, with Guilliman buff the Tactical Marines might pull some miracles in the sense of reducing a little number of Bloodletters. But How about those the have to be deployed / moved outside 6" of the Primarch? A smart Daemon player would likely to drop in the bomb in a way that they are targeting the Space Marines with less buff first, then try to consolidate into the stronger shooters to tie them up. In that way, the trade off maybe like 15 BL for 20 Tactical Marines.

Mr_Congeniality wrote:
Hi there,

I really like what you are looking to do with the list, but have a few points that I'd like to raise to make it even better. They would be as follows:

Detachments
It looks like you're trying to field a pair of Battalion detachments, but with Guilliman in your list you would not be struggling for CP with just the one Battalion (11, rather than 16).

Is there anything you are particularly aiming to gain from 16 CP? If not, I would suggest removing the second Battalion entirely in favour of all, or some, of the suggestions below.

Damage Output
If you were to follow my suggestion to reduce your army down to a single Battalion, you could probably add another 10 man Devastator Squad to increase the amount of heavy firepower that benefits from Guilliman. This would stick to the theme of having a swarm of SM infantry.

You may also want to consider a Thunderfire Cannon. This sticks to the Infantry brief, while providing a stratagem that can slow down units that are charging towards you at speed.

Screening/Deepstrike Defences
If you take my suggestion from above, you would likely also have enough points to add scout squads to your army. If you would like to stick to double Battalion, you may want to consider switching your 5-man Tactical Squads to Scout Squads. Their special deployment allows you form a bubble around your army to protect you from Deepstrikers.

All you need to do is place units around your army so that there is no where the Deepstrikers can deploy that puts them 9" away from one of your units.


I hope that these points are helpful to you!

I have to say that this makes sense. Marines with bolters are great; marines with heavybolters/lascannon/etc. are better.
As far as the screening is concerned, I think they can do it pretty well on their own with the sheer number of squads. Rapid reaction seems to be lacking- maybe tool up with assault/vanguards? Not too sure on the points spread, but it would allow you to put more force online incase of a breakthrough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr_Congeniality wrote:
Hi there,

I really like what you are looking to do with the list, but have a few points that I'd like to raise to make it even better. They would be as follows:

Detachments
It looks like you're trying to field a pair of Battalion detachments, but with Guilliman in your list you would not be struggling for CP with just the one Battalion (11, rather than 16).

Is there anything you are particularly aiming to gain from 16 CP? If not, I would suggest removing the second Battalion entirely in favour of all, or some, of the suggestions below.

Damage Output
If you were to follow my suggestion to reduce your army down to a single Battalion, you could probably add another 10 man Devastator Squad to increase the amount of heavy firepower that benefits from Guilliman. This would stick to the theme of having a swarm of SM infantry.

You may also want to consider a Thunderfire Cannon. This sticks to the Infantry brief, while providing a stratagem that can slow down units that are charging towards you at speed.

Screening/Deepstrike Defences
If you take my suggestion from above, you would likely also have enough points to add scout squads to your army. If you would like to stick to double Battalion, you may want to consider switching your 5-man Tactical Squads to Scout Squads. Their special deployment allows you form a bubble around your army to protect you from Deepstrikers.

All you need to do is place units around your army so that there is no where the Deepstrikers can deploy that puts them 9" away from one of your units.


I hope that these points are helpful to you!

I have to say that this makes sense. Marines with bolters are great; marines with heavybolters/lascannon/etc. are better.
As far as the screening is concerned, I think they can do it pretty well on their own with the sheer number of squads. Rapid reaction seems to be lacking- maybe tool up with assault/vanguards? Not too sure on the points spread, but it would allow you to put more force online incase of a breakthrough.