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Would you be OK if your Tournament opponent showed up with a 100% perfect Codex Ultramarines army, but played it as Chaos Space Marine Renegades?

Assume:
* $1,000 cash prize
* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions
* ALL weapons are "correct"
* ALL models have "correct" Ultramarines Chapter, 5th Company, Squad and soldier insignia
* army composition matches a Codex demi-Company supported by Veterans from 1st Company and auxiliaries
* the Marneus Calgar Special Character model is the Chaos Lord
* Codex: Chaos Space Marines >>> Codex: Ultramarines
* background story is that the Ultramarines 5th Company *just* turned to Chaos, so they haven't had time to repaint their stuff

Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it.

Obviously, the player is playing as Chaos Marines because the army is "better", but would you be cool with that?

If you were the Tournament Organizer, would you allow it?

You should say Chaos Space Marine Renegades, to avoid confusion with actual Chaos Renegades.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
You should say "Chaos Space Marine Renegades", to avoid confusion with actual Chaos Renegades.

Done!

Honestly, as long as they are upfront with you about all of it, makes sure to be clear about what each unit represents, and this is approved by tournament organizers, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Frankly i care not so long he does one THING:

Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it.

Obviously, the player is playing as Chaos Marines because the army is "better", but would you be cool with that?

Marks the appropriate squads easily for me to remember what is what.

and the equipment is WYSIWYG , i do not care how he does it, might aswell pick a red yarn for Khornate berzerkers etc.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Honestly, as long as they are upfront with you about all of it, makes sure to be clear about what each unit represents, and this is approved by tournament organizers, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

OK, you're the TO. Do you approve it?

Moved this to a more appropriate forum.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Frankly i care not so long he does one THING:

Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it.

Marks the appropriate squads easily for me to remember what is what.

and the equipment is WYSIWYG , i do not care how he does it, might aswell pick a red yarn for Khornate berzerkers etc.

No red yard, because that's not part of the official Ultramarines color scheme. You need to remember that the Assault Marines without Jump Packs are actually Khorne Berzerkers, just as you need to remember that the 7th Squad is actually Plague Marines. The squads are numbered on their shoulder pads per Codex.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Frankly i care not so long he does one THING:

Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it.

Marks the appropriate squads easily for me to remember what is what.

and the equipment is WYSIWYG , i do not care how he does it, might aswell pick a red yarn for Khornate berzerkers etc.

No red yard, because that's not part of the official Ultramarines color scheme. You need to remember that the Assault Marines without Jump Packs are actually Khorne Berzerkers, just as you need to remember that the 7th Squad is actually Plague Marines. The squads are numbered on their shoulder pads per Codex.

Red YARN, you know stuff like that to make it as easy as possible https://www.google.com/search?q=red+yarn&client=firefox-b-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=aaUZ2ovYznY00M%253A%252CrsG1n6TaQLP-NM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQiIf_BcAyWfVOzqO40QIzNZVI2Wg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiW8Mb5x7ThAhVt1-AKHb40B9IQ9QEwAXoECAYQBg#imgrc=aaUZ2ovYznY00M:

also you seem preety brought up by this as you were in the thread before, frankly so long the list comes down with the correct description of assult marines as khornates, etc yeah why not. Again marking the stuff is the issue, the only one.
If he /she / any other form in existence does the marking right and with a full legend on the list to make it easily understood no absolutely no issue.
Granted he certainly would not be in my book contesting for the best painted army.

I'd say "No".

I'm not really an advocate of "WYSIWYG or die!", quite the opposite. I don't mind proxxying or if weapon-loadouts are count-as something else. (Not everyone want/knows how to magnetize, and far from everyone got the money to buy 1 of every loadout).

But essentially proxxying an entire army in a tournament, where several units look nothing like what they're acting as (more specifically proxxying the cult-troops with regular Ultramarines) would be confusing as heck, regardless if I had your armylist in hand or not.

I feel like at that point it's against the spirit of the game.
If someone wants to play CSM that bad, just get a CSM-army, or play them as Ultramarines.

I wouldn't mind this at all in a regular friendly game, but at a tournament I'd be quite surprised (and not in a good way) if I ended up facing a list like this.
With that said, I haven't attended a tournament in over 5 years, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter.

I'd play it if everything was clear and uniform in the proxies. As a TO I would only approve it if it was VERY clear.

Doesn't bother me for friendly games. Probably wouldn't fly at a tourney.

As long as it's WYSIWYG it's not an issue and made clear to the opponent so they don't think they are playing against a Space Marine army but it turns out to be a Chaos type army. Personally, as a matter of taste, I would not care for someone running an army actually painted as Ultramarines as Renegades, but it's not a big deal. Hell, I have considered running Alpha Legion as Raven Guard Primaris Vanguard because it fits them better.

My gut says no as it would just be too confusing at times. However... I have seen on my travels on this internet over the years an army of CSM painted in UM 2nd co colours (including a DP). It was such a mindfeth that it was wonderful to look at.

As a TO, I'd probably say no. That's pushing it within the spirt of the game and would be confusing for opponents, regardless. Even if you said "this is all Chaos, etc." and explained it before the game, most players would still default to expecting normal Space Marine behavior/rules, etc.

On a non-TO level it just smacks of lazy rules-chasing.

Honestly that doesn't seem very hard to memorize.

Plus if you wanna make your army more actively bad, by all means don't play Ultramarines.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
...Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it...

How are you proposing to distinguish Berzerkers/Noise Marines/Plague Marines/etc?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Frankly i care not so long he does one THING:

Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it.

Marks the appropriate squads easily for me to remember what is what.

and the equipment is WYSIWYG , i do not care how he does it, might aswell pick a red yarn for Khornate berzerkers etc.

No red yard, because that's not part of the official Ultramarines color scheme. You need to remember that the Assault Marines without Jump Packs are actually Khorne Berzerkers, just as you need to remember that the 7th Squad is actually Plague Marines. The squads are numbered on their shoulder pads per Codex.

This is the point where the claim of "this is wysiwyg" becomes false.

A Plague Marine is differentiated from a Rubric Marine is differentiated from a Chaos Marine in more ways than just basic weapon loadout. Even IF (and this is a very skeptical "if") the opponent were perfect about wargear WYSIWYG, i.e. he had created a loyalist version of a blight launcher for his "plague marines" to carry and his "thousand sons" had a librarian with a force staff leading them and his "bezerkers" had loyalist chain axes, then he would still be failing to differentiate the squads in the normal way they would be differentiable in an actual CSM army, and he would be violating wysiwyg.

You can't bring two units that look identical and tell me that they are completely different units while simultaneously saying your whole army is WYSIWYG.

You see an Ultramarines army led by Calgar. You do not get an Ultramarines army led by Calgar.

It's not WYSIWYG so the player would be breaking the tournament's rules.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Frankly i care not so long he does one THING:

Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it.

Marks the appropriate squads easily for me to remember what is what.

and the equipment is WYSIWYG , i do not care how he does it, might aswell pick a red yarn for Khornate berzerkers etc.

No red yard, because that's not part of the official Ultramarines color scheme. You need to remember that the Assault Marines without Jump Packs are actually Khorne Berzerkers, just as you need to remember that the 7th Squad is actually Plague Marines. The squads are numbered on their shoulder pads per Codex.

Red YARN, you know stuff like that to make it as easy as possible

Again marking the stuff is the issue, the only one.

If he /she / any other form in existence does the marking right and with a full legend on the list to make it easily understood no absolutely no issue.
Granted he certainly would not be in my book contesting for the best painted army.

As above, no red yarn. The "easy" part is that you have the list, and it has 10 Khorne Berzerkers; opponent tells you that they're the Assault Marines without Jump Packs. It's entirely up to you to remember that squad is actually Berzerkers and not something else.

The marking is the squad number on the shoulder pad.

The marking is "right" in the sense that the squad is clearly identifiable by their shoulder pad number. But you're not getting any yarn or other stuff. You simply have to remember that squad of AMs is actually Khorne Berzerkers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
...Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it...

How are you proposing to distinguish Berzerkers/Noise Marines/Plague Marines/etc?

Squad number only.

As in "Squad #5 is actually Plague Marines"

No caps. No distinguishing bases. None of that. I

It's an Codex Ultramarine army "count as" Chaos Space Marines.

As a player, I'd probably be fine with it. As a TO who put up a significant cash prize that demanded WYSIWYG, I would probably not allow it. Then again, if I was a TO putting up that kind of cash, I'd better be VERY clear in my definition of what WYSIWYG means in my tournament documents to avoid a potential lawsuit from someone rejected. I would expect that definition to require the models be what they're sold as, but overall the answer to this mostly comes down to what WYSIWYG actually means without a clear definition.

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'd say "No".

I'm not really an advocate of "WYSIWYG or die!", quite the opposite. I don't mind proxxying or if weapon-loadouts are count-as something else. (Not everyone want/knows how to magnetize, and far from everyone got the money to buy 1 of every loadout).

But essentially proxxying an entire army in a tournament, where several units look nothing like what they're acting as (more specifically proxxying the cult-troops with regular Ultramarines) would be confusing as heck, regardless if I had your armylist in hand or not.

I feel like at that point it's against the spirit of the game.
If someone wants to play CSM that bad, just get a CSM-army, or play them as Ultramarines.

I wouldn't mind this at all in a regular friendly game, but at a tournament I'd be quite surprised (and not in a good way) if I ended up facing a list like this.
With that said, I haven't attended a tournament in over 5 years, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter.

It's a Tournament with a $1,000 CASH PRIZE, not a pickup game at your local table.

According to the "paint doesn't matter crowd", Power Armor with the right weapons is WYSIWYG.

They simply want to play the strongest flavor of the month, rather than play what they painted, or build what they play.

Lets reduce this further:

-Pawns are Tacs
-Rooks are Devs (Lascannons)
-Knights are ASMs
-Bishops are Rhinos
-Queens are Libbys
-Kings are Chapter Masters

With the proper specials/heavies painted on.

Nobody would call that WYSIWG. Technically, there'd be no difficulty playing against that army. Practically, I'm not interested in playing against that army.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


As above, no red yarn. The "easy" part is that you have the list, and it has 10 Khorne Berzerkers; opponent tells you that they're the Assault Marines without Jump Packs. It's entirely up to you to remember that squad is actually Berzerkers and not something else.

No, it's not.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
...Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it...

How are you proposing to distinguish Berzerkers/Noise Marines/Plague Marines/etc?

Squad number only.

As in "Squad #5 is actually Plague Marines"

No caps. No distinguishing bases. None of that. I

It's an Codex Ultramarine army "count as" Chaos Space Marines.

So are the weapons actually not correct, or are you just choosing not to use sonic weapons/blight launchers/chainaxes/etc?

I'm really inclined to say "no" here given that you're breaking the cardinal rule of proxies (avoid confusion, ex. don't use the same model to represent two different units).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'd say "No".

I'm not really an advocate of "WYSIWYG or die!", quite the opposite. I don't mind proxxying or if weapon-loadouts are count-as something else. (Not everyone want/knows how to magnetize, and far from everyone got the money to buy 1 of every loadout).

But essentially proxxying an entire army in a tournament, where several units look nothing like what they're acting as (more specifically proxxying the cult-troops with regular Ultramarines) would be confusing as heck, regardless if I had your armylist in hand or not.

I feel like at that point it's against the spirit of the game.
If someone wants to play CSM that bad, just get a CSM-army, or play them as Ultramarines.

I wouldn't mind this at all in a regular friendly game, but at a tournament I'd be quite surprised (and not in a good way) if I ended up facing a list like this.
With that said, I haven't attended a tournament in over 5 years, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter.

It's a Tournament with a $1,000 CASH PRIZE, not a pickup game at your local table.

According to the "paint doesn't matter crowd", Power Armor with the right weapons is WYSIWYG.

They simply want to play the strongest flavor of the month, rather than play what they painted, or build what they play.

And you are vastly oversimplifying the position, because for you in that case any non known paint scheme for PA IS NOT CORRECT SUBFACTION.

Works two ways your argument just so you know.

In light of what you said later, no this is not acceptable at all.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I'd play it if everything was clear and uniform in the proxies. As a TO I would only approve it if it was VERY clear.

What is "VERY clear"?

The squads are clearly differentiated by number, and models have appropriate weapons. Is that "VERY clear"?

No.

When looking at a table, I see Swooping Hawks and Scourge having a WINGFIGHT at a glance; it's very noticeable.

I see some blood-drenched psychos with a pair of axes marching up the table at a glance.

At a glance, I certainly don't read squad numbers.

Wayniac wrote:
In light of what you said later, no this is not acceptable at all.

Yeah, either Nathan Poe would like a word or dude really is serious and honestly thinks this is okay.

This is an example of the only way I'd be okay with it (can't find the ones I was thinking of. It sticks so vividly in my mind, that DP painted in ultramarine blue with a yellow trim...) as it is still WYSIWYG yet messes with your opponent's preconceptions about what a CM army should "look" like.