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lets say that a little bit before the Thirteenth Black Crusade the three way cluster feth that is the third battle of Armageddon actually finishes with a Imperium victory. Due to a large number of imperial guardsmen on planet having extensive contact with the choatic forces on planet the Inquisition decides to pull a repeat of the first battle of Armageddon and kill all the IG forces on planet. The Salamander and Space wolve contingents on planet object to this action for the same reasons the Space Wolves did the first time. this once again escalates into a full scale war similar to the months of shame. the Black Templars still being pissed off at the Inquisition fro what they did to the the Celestial Lions decide to jump on as well. How would a full scale civil war between Ordos Malleus and 3 first founding chapters play out?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 04:38:12


 
   
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chimera0205 wrote:
lets say that a little bit before the Thirteenth Black Crusade the three way cluster feth that is the third battle of Armageddon actually finishes with a Imperium victory. Due to a large number of imperial guardsmen on planet having extensive contact with the choatic forces on planet the Inquisition decides to pull a repeat of the first battle of Armageddon and kill all the IG forces on planet. The Salamander and Space wolve contingents on planet object to this action for the same reasons the Space Wolves did the first time. this once again escalates into a full scale war similar to the months of shame. the Black Templars still being pissed off at the Inquisition fro what they did to the the Celestial Lions decide to jump on as well. How would a full scale civil war between Ordos Malleus and 3 first founding chapters play out?


likely the way the months of shame did, a negotiated cease fire. although the black templars might find themselves coming under increased scrutiny for their... orginizational concerns

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
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BrianDavion wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
lets say that a little bit before the Thirteenth Black Crusade the three way cluster feth that is the third battle of Armageddon actually finishes with a Imperium victory. Due to a large number of imperial guardsmen on planet having extensive contact with the choatic forces on planet the Inquisition decides to pull a repeat of the first battle of Armageddon and kill all the IG forces on planet. The Salamander and Space wolve contingents on planet object to this action for the same reasons the Space Wolves did the first time. this once again escalates into a full scale war similar to the months of shame. the Black Templars still being pissed off at the Inquisition fro what they did to the the Celestial Lions decide to jump on as well. How would a full scale civil war between Ordos Malleus and 3 first founding chapters play out?


likely the way the months of shame did, a negotiated cease fire. although the black templars might find themselves coming under increased scrutiny for their... orginizational concerns


Assuming the Inquisition wins.
   
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Yeeesss.....!!! Yesssss!!!!! that would be epic!!!

The truth seekers vs the inquisition!!

Would even consider starting an imperium army over chaos...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 05:03:14


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chimera0205 wrote:
How would a full scale civil war between Ordos Malleus and 3 first founding chapters play out?


The space marines are declared to be heretics and traitors, the inquisition takes command of whatever forces are required (up to and including entire naval fleets), and the space marines are annihilated. If the inquisition is in a position politically where they don't feel any need to resolve the situation peacefully and it comes to open war this isn't even close.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
How would a full scale civil war between Ordos Malleus and 3 first founding chapters play out?


The space marines are declared to be heretics and traitors, the inquisition takes command of whatever forces are required (up to and including entire naval fleets), and the space marines are annihilated. If the inquisition is in a position politically where they don't feel any need to resolve the situation peacefully and it comes to open war this isn't even close.


pretty hard to justify declaring two first founding chapters as heretics. if they could do that they woulda done it with the Space Wolves last time. Not to mention the Black Templars being Sons of Dorne could inact The Last Wall if gak really hit the fan bringing in the Imperial Fists and all there successor chapters into the fray.
   
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We are constantly told an Inquisitor's power is near-limitless. Peregrine is right.

What are a mere two thousand Astartes to the =][=? Nothing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 05:28:06


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chimera0205 wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
How would a full scale civil war between Ordos Malleus and 3 first founding chapters play out?


The space marines are declared to be heretics and traitors, the inquisition takes command of whatever forces are required (up to and including entire naval fleets), and the space marines are annihilated. If the inquisition is in a position politically where they don't feel any need to resolve the situation peacefully and it comes to open war this isn't even close.


pretty hard to justify declaring two first founding chapters as heretics. if they could do that they woulda done it with the Space Wolves last time. Not to mention the Black Templars being Sons of Dorne could inact The Last Wall if gak really hit the fan bringing in the Imperial Fists and all there successor chapters into the fray.


the Last wall is used when the IMPERIUM needs defending, not when a single chapter needs help.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimera0205 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
lets say that a little bit before the Thirteenth Black Crusade the three way cluster feth that is the third battle of Armageddon actually finishes with a Imperium victory. Due to a large number of imperial guardsmen on planet having extensive contact with the choatic forces on planet the Inquisition decides to pull a repeat of the first battle of Armageddon and kill all the IG forces on planet. The Salamander and Space wolve contingents on planet object to this action for the same reasons the Space Wolves did the first time. this once again escalates into a full scale war similar to the months of shame. the Black Templars still being pissed off at the Inquisition fro what they did to the the Celestial Lions decide to jump on as well. How would a full scale civil war between Ordos Malleus and 3 first founding chapters play out?


likely the way the months of shame did, a negotiated cease fire. although the black templars might find themselves coming under increased scrutiny for their... orginizational concerns


Assuming the Inquisition wins.


assuming nothing, the Inqusition CANNOT be wiped out by a handful of space marine chapters. even if the space marines essentially won, there would undoubtedly be political concequences

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 05:34:23


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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chimera0205 wrote:
pretty hard to justify declaring two first founding chapters as heretics. if they could do that they woulda done it with the Space Wolves last time. Not to mention the Black Templars being Sons of Dorne could inact The Last Wall if gak really hit the fan bringing in the Imperial Fists and all there successor chapters into the fray.


The premise of the thread is that the inquisition is no longer obligated by politics to resolve the situation without shooting. If it's a "full scale war" then the inquisition is fully capable of taking command of a full naval fleet and delivering exterminatus to each space marine homeworld before wiping out any stubborn survivors.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
pretty hard to justify declaring two first founding chapters as heretics. if they could do that they woulda done it with the Space Wolves last time. Not to mention the Black Templars being Sons of Dorne could inact The Last Wall if gak really hit the fan bringing in the Imperial Fists and all there successor chapters into the fray.


The premise of the thread is that the inquisition is no longer obligated by politics to resolve the situation without shooting. If it's a "full scale war" then the inquisition is fully capable of taking command of a full naval fleet and delivering exterminatus to each space marine homeworld before wiping out any stubborn survivors.


didnt space wolves perform surprisingly well against the Inquisition last time? if one chapter could do that well 3 would perform far better.
   
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chimera0205 wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
chimera0205 wrote:
pretty hard to justify declaring two first founding chapters as heretics. if they could do that they woulda done it with the Space Wolves last time. Not to mention the Black Templars being Sons of Dorne could inact The Last Wall if gak really hit the fan bringing in the Imperial Fists and all there successor chapters into the fray.


The premise of the thread is that the inquisition is no longer obligated by politics to resolve the situation without shooting. If it's a "full scale war" then the inquisition is fully capable of taking command of a full naval fleet and delivering exterminatus to each space marine homeworld before wiping out any stubborn survivors.


didnt space wolves perform surprisingly well against the Inquisition last time? if one chapter could do that well 3 would perform far better.


sure but that's because it wasn't really a war in a conventional sense, rather it was sparring over saving guard regiments or killing them etc. when the Inqusition gathered a large force and put themselves in orbit over the Fang well.. that was a whole new ballgame and eventually arrived at a settlement when the cooler heads in the Inqusition prevailed.

this is the thing, this is honestly a silly question as there IS NO UNITED INQUSITION. it's not really possiable

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Trouble here is the assumption the Inquisition wouldn't be split six ways from Sunday.

You'd be looking at a near Galactic Civil War, drawing in all Imperial Assets to one side or another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I daresay the Inquisition's inherently fractitious nature is precisely why this hasn't happened.

Anyone declaring Founding Chapters of Heresy is going to meet internal dissent - and quite possibly be stripped of their office.

The most likely outcome is another internal Inquisition Shadow War.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 11:29:30


   
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 Argive wrote:
Yeeesss.....!!! Yesssss!!!!! that would be epic!!!

The truth seekers vs the inquisition!!

Would even consider starting an imperium army over chaos...


Sounds like the real origins of the Badab War*


*before Imperial PR rewrote history...tee hee.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 12:37:49


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BrianDavion wrote:
this is the thing, this is honestly a silly question as there IS NO UNITED INQUSITION. it's not really possiable


There's also no such thing as "united Space Marines" - for every Chapter that thinks it's a good idea to start a ruckus there's another one that thinks those guys should be stopped before they cause too much trouble. The easiest way of dealing with a rogue Chapter is often for an Inquisitor to quietly mention to another Chapter how badly the actions of the first reflect on the honor and reliability of "proper Space Marines". It saves a lot of resources and the loyal SM feel the Inquisition respects them by letting them handle the situation.
   
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The galaxy is so huge and the bureaucracy so massive that all parties could be appeased, reassigned elsewhere, and dealt with accordingly without anyone else knowing what happened.

The Inquisitors in question could be sent to a different part of the galaxy and assured the matter would be dealt with. The space marines could be deployed to another corner of the galaxy with the assurances they're seeking. Then the troops in question that started the whole thing could be spared, loaded onto transports, and tragically lost in the warp during transit.

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I seriously doubt that factionalism would triumph in a war directed at the very heart of the Inquisition's authority.

I mean, the CPC fought alongside the Kuomintang when Japan invaded. Some fights involve bigger principles, you know?

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I think to spice things up, it might be more interesting if basically the entirety of the Imperial Guard rose up along with the Marines in response to this treatment of their comrades. The Inquisition can't do much if it doesn't have much firepower to back it up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/18 05:21:47


 
   
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 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I think to spice things up, it might be more interesting if basically the entirety of the Imperial Guard rose up along with the Marines in response to this treatment of their comrades. The Inquisition can't do much if it doesn't have much firepower to back it up.


this is yet again assuming the guard would all be in communication and instantly align all together despite the IoM being structured to make that difficult

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I think to spice things up, it might be more interesting if basically the entirety of the Imperial Guard rose up along with the Marines in response to this treatment of their comrades. The Inquisition can't do much if it doesn't have much firepower to back it up.


this is yet again assuming the guard would all be in communication and instantly align all together despite the IoM being structured to make that difficult


It would also imply that the Lord Militant of the IG rose against the Inquisitorial Representative, and that means outward civil war in the entirety of the Imperium.
   
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Grey Knights don't exist so nobody is going to take their side and the few people who know of their existence aren't fond of them.
Marine chapters will not be limited to 1000 marines.
Salamanders are somehow packing 2000 Primaris marines.
Goodness knows with Black Templar.
Space Wolves have a more definite number of about 10000 strong - bigger than codex to begin with, decimated by the wrath of Magnus, buffered by Wulfen, buffered by 1000 Primaris Marines, buffered again by the return of a whole 30k era great company.

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If it was all the space marine chapters uniting together, then they'd demolish the inquisition. The inquisition would have to have the support of the administratum etc. to be able to win that war. Still if the whole Imperium was to go up against all the SM chapters to even stand a chance they'd need to be united not fighting against the myriad forces that are pitched against the Imperium so, the Inquisition wouldn't dare go up against them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/18 15:32:25


 
   
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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Grey Knights don't exist so nobody is going to take their side and the few people who know of their existence aren't fond of them.
Marine chapters will not be limited to 1000 marines.
Salamanders are somehow packing 2000 Primaris marines.
Goodness knows with Black Templar.
Space Wolves have a more definite number of about 10000 strong - bigger than codex to begin with, decimated by the wrath of Magnus, buffered by Wulfen, buffered by 1000 Primaris Marines, buffered again by the return of a whole 30k era great company.


Well before the whole Wrath of Magnus thingy, Ragnar's Great Company (who was the biggest out of the thirteen) numbered 130/50-ish marines, so they wouldn't be able to field 10k marines.
   
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Engrenages wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Grey Knights don't exist so nobody is going to take their side and the few people who know of their existence aren't fond of them.
Marine chapters will not be limited to 1000 marines.
Salamanders are somehow packing 2000 Primaris marines.
Goodness knows with Black Templar.
Space Wolves have a more definite number of about 10000 strong - bigger than codex to begin with, decimated by the wrath of Magnus, buffered by Wulfen, buffered by 1000 Primaris Marines, buffered again by the return of a whole 30k era great company.


Well before the whole Wrath of Magnus thingy, Ragnar's Great Company (who was the biggest out of the thirteen) numbered 130/50-ish marines, so they wouldn't be able to field 10k marines.


No one knows their actual numbers, not their full numbers anyways but yeah its not even close to 10,000 and I'm a SW player.
   
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chimera0205 wrote:
lets say that a little bit before the Thirteenth Black Crusade the three way cluster feth that is the third battle of Armageddon actually finishes with a Imperium victory. Due to a large number of imperial guardsmen on planet having extensive contact with the choatic forces on planet the Inquisition decides to pull a repeat of the first battle of Armageddon and kill all the IG forces on planet. The Salamander and Space wolve contingents on planet object to this action for the same reasons the Space Wolves did the first time. this once again escalates into a full scale war similar to the months of shame. the Black Templars still being pissed off at the Inquisition fro what they did to the the Celestial Lions decide to jump on as well. How would a full scale civil war between Ordos Malleus and 3 first founding chapters play out?
The Space Marines would lose, barring Author's prerogative (which is basically the only way they have ever survived past examples of such conflicts).

The forces and resources available to the Ordo Malleus can in theory include the entire Imperium short of the Custodes themselves. If it's the Ordo Malleus, and not just an individual Inquisitor acting on their lonesome, the Marines are not only going to face an escalation they have no hope of matching, they're going to face threats they are not in any way trained to deal with as the Inquisition will not merely strike at them with raw military force.

More to the point, in the context of a planet or system wide war, Space Marines are so limited in numbers as to effectively be nonexistent. Even if we assume a ludicrous number of marines like 20k, thats not even enough to properly hold a large city properly much less a planet or solar system. Their entire concept breaks down quickly once analyzed from this angle. Marines are fearsome combatants, but they're so rare as to be almost nowhere, and when located can be easily encircled (because they cant be everywhere they need to be) and would be destroyed by artillery and the like in short order. The Marines also have very limited or no reinforcement methods, no ability to replace battle casualties, etc.

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The Inquisition is not a unified force. The probably fight as much internally as anything or anyone else (often using Marine Chapters among other assets in their feuds and power struggles).

And any Imperium-force, be it a Space Marine chapter, a Guard Commissar or whatever can try to take on a given Inquisitor. The outcome is pretty much open to how much power/luck/assets the Inquisitor has. Some Inquisitors manage to get entire systems and quadrants of the galaxy exterminated, Marines & all. Other Inquisitors piss off the wrong Catachan Sergeant and end up with their head bashed in. There is really no "standard powerlevel" as Inquisitors go.
   
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Course not, neither group is unified. That's why it's a "what if" scenario.

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 Melissia wrote:
Course not, neither group is unified. That's why it's a "what if" scenario.


Sure. But what does unification mean? Just as a unified fighting force? Marines obviously win by a significant margin in a straight-up fire-fight against Inquisitors.

The power of the Inquisition is their influence and the ability to requisition other imperial assets and fighting forces. But Marines, especially named ones, have that power too.

Inquisitor X against success-chapter-master-Y might "out-rank" him in Imperial string-pulling and win over him. Inquisitor X against, dunno, Dante might lose that same match up.

If all the Marines were unified and Calgar, Azrael, Dante & co. start calling in favours, would they end up commanding, say, the Officio Assassinorum in that "what if" scenario, or would the Inquisition? Who would get the alliance of the Navigators? The Guard? Etc....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/18 17:38:31


 
   
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Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Course not, neither group is unified. That's why it's a "what if" scenario.


Sure. But what does unification mean? Just as a unified fighting force? Marines obviously win by a significant margin in a straight-up fire-fight against Inquisitors.

The power of the Inquisition is their influence and the ability to requisition other imperial assets and fighting forces. But Marines, especially named ones, have that power too.

Inquisitor X against success-chapter-master-Y might "out-rank" him in Imperial string-pulling and win over him. Inquisitor X against, dunno, Dante might lose that same match up.

If all the Marines were unified and Calgar, Azrael, Dante & co. start calling in favours, would they end up commanding, say, the Officio Assassinorum in that "what if" scenario, or would the Inquisition? Who would get the alliance of the Navigators? The Guard? Etc....


You'd just end up with a split really. House Belisarius and others like them are going to go with the Space Marines but weaker houses would probably go with the Inquisition.

Some Guard are going to have more loyalty to local Marines than the far off Inquisition like those in Ultramar.

Assassins go with whoever forges the most paperwork.

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pm713 wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Course not, neither group is unified. That's why it's a "what if" scenario.


Sure. But what does unification mean? Just as a unified fighting force? Marines obviously win by a significant margin in a straight-up fire-fight against Inquisitors.

The power of the Inquisition is their influence and the ability to requisition other imperial assets and fighting forces. But Marines, especially named ones, have that power too.

Inquisitor X against success-chapter-master-Y might "out-rank" him in Imperial string-pulling and win over him. Inquisitor X against, dunno, Dante might lose that same match up.

If all the Marines were unified and Calgar, Azrael, Dante & co. start calling in favours, would they end up commanding, say, the Officio Assassinorum in that "what if" scenario, or would the Inquisition? Who would get the alliance of the Navigators? The Guard? Etc....


You'd just end up with a split really. House Belisarius and others like them are going to go with the Space Marines but weaker houses would probably go with the Inquisition.

Some Guard are going to have more loyalty to local Marines than the far off Inquisition like those in Ultramar.

Assassins go with whoever forges the most paperwork.


More like 'all' guard will go against the Inquisition. The inquisition are their 2nd most common reason to die other than Orks etc.
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Engrenages wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Grey Knights don't exist so nobody is going to take their side and the few people who know of their existence aren't fond of them.
Marine chapters will not be limited to 1000 marines.
Salamanders are somehow packing 2000 Primaris marines.
Goodness knows with Black Templar.
Space Wolves have a more definite number of about 10000 strong - bigger than codex to begin with, decimated by the wrath of Magnus, buffered by Wulfen, buffered by 1000 Primaris Marines, buffered again by the return of a whole 30k era great company.


Well before the whole Wrath of Magnus thingy, Ragnar's Great Company (who was the biggest out of the thirteen) numbered 130/50-ish marines, so they wouldn't be able to field 10k marines.


No one knows their actual numbers, not their full numbers anyways but yeah its not even close to 10,000 and I'm a SW player.


using the known numbers of the various Great companies I'e estimated the Space Wolves at lying somewhere between 1500-2000 marines so big yes but not insanely unreasonably big. IMHO the novel Wolfsbane finally puts the final piece of the space wolf puzzle into place. The Space Wolves only divided once, and where left alone for it, not because Lemen Russ was somehow a bad ass, but because the Wolves got WRECKED during the heresy. Russ lost most of his legion in his, YOLO attack on Horus

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