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Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine





As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?

"Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all."

– George Washington 
   
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The Imperium wouldn't exist. Chaos also wouldn't be a thing without Slaanesh.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
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pm713 wrote:
The Imperium wouldn't exist. Chaos also wouldn't be a thing without Slaanesh.


How so? Didn't Chaos exist since the beginning of the 40k universe?

"Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all."

– George Washington 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Jazzylee wrote:
pm713 wrote:
The Imperium wouldn't exist. Chaos also wouldn't be a thing without Slaanesh.


How so? Didn't Chaos exist since the beginning of the 40k universe?

No. The Warp has always existed. Chaos began with the War in Heaven that the Necrons started. The Eldar Empire had no threats to it and that's the whole reason the Fall happened. Without the Fall and Slaanesh Chaos can't become a significant threat because the Eldar Empire was strong enough to take out any Chaos serving races and the Eldar were in control of themselves enough to not cause demon incursions.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
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Importantly, Chaos could not have been a threat for the pre-Fall Empire, because if Chaos had been a threat, the Fall would not have happened.

Also, the Eldar had Chaos Gods of their own.
   
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Dallas area, TX

To clarify, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle would have still existed, but without the Imperium to "fuel" them Chaos would not have become as prominent as it is.

-

   
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 Galef wrote:
To clarify, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle would have still existed, but without the Imperium to "fuel" them Chaos would not have become as prominent as it is.

-


I dunno about that as chaos was pretty strong prior to the IoM. it seems like an aweful lot of the religions the Emperor found off earth where in fact chaos cults. but yeah it wasn't until the heresy that you had choas cultists flying from world to world in starships openly conquering for the dark gods.

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BrianDavion wrote:
 Galef wrote:
To clarify, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle would have still existed, but without the Imperium to "fuel" them Chaos would not have become as prominent as it is.

-


I dunno about that as chaos was pretty strong prior to the IoM. it seems like an aweful lot of the religions the Emperor found off earth where in fact chaos cults. but yeah it wasn't until the heresy that you had choas cultists flying from world to world in starships openly conquering for the dark gods.

They generally come about in the period where the Eldar Empire was gone but the Great Crusade hadn't started. The Empire left a power vacuum that Orks and Chaos filled for the most part.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Short answer is the IOM wouldn't exist. The emperor knew between the eldar empire falling apart and the warp storms around the galaxy being at a low due to the events of the fall this was his one shot to reform a human empire that was united and spanned the galaxy.

I like to think this explains some of his more bone headed decisions, he was on a strict time table and was willing to cut corners to stay on schedule
.
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

We would have a much different universe, the imperium would still rise but not be the big bad boy on the block, more akin to tau if anything, the eldar would likely take the brunt of all the major invasions and would probably resemble the current imperium, beset on all sides and slowly crumbling.
   
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Gig Harbor, WA

If the slaanesh warp storms subside somhow (if the eldar suddenly decide to keep it in their pants), I think the Emperor would still build the Imperium.

At which point he'd have to steer very clear of the Eldar domain, but that was pretty geographically concentrated around the future eye of terror region.

I don't think the Eldar would care to stop him.
   
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Imagine a universe where the primarchs were never born and the Emperor had to make treatsies with the Eldar to move around the galaxy.

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 argonak wrote:
If the slaanesh warp storms subside somhow (if the eldar suddenly decide to keep it in their pants), I think the Emperor would still build the Imperium.

At which point he'd have to steer very clear of the Eldar domain, but that was pretty geographically concentrated around the future eye of terror region.

I don't think the Eldar would care to stop him.


I don't think the IoM would be established at all, since the human confederation that existed during the DAoT, even though ravaged by the rebellion from the Men of Iron, would still exist since they were only fully finished off by the warp storms created by Slaanesh's birth. This means the Emperor wouldn't have the opportunity presented by the crumbled remnants of humanity that would have been left for him to reforge with himself at its head. It would definitely forestall any possible webway project, since that means the Eldar Empire would have the numbers and motivation to actually defend it if humanity tried taking it from them.
   
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 Jazzylee wrote:
As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?


Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top, though with all the legions of astartes working together it would be a very close battle..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/27 03:08:28


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?


Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.


Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.

"Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all."

– George Washington 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Jazzylee wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?


Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.


Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.

The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
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pm713 wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?


Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.


Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.

The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.


I guess you're right about that, the Imperium was only confined to earth before the great crusade started, so the Eldar would most likely see them as a threat and obliterate them right off the bat.

"Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all."

– George Washington 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






pm713 wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?


Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.


Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.

The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.


No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/04/27 06:15:30


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?


Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.


Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.

The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.


No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.

That's plain wrong. There's a webway portal on the moon. I'm really sick of that mistake. The HEART of the Eldar Empire got turned into the Eye of Terror, the whole thing was galaxy spanning. Saying the Eye of Terror is the whole Eldar Empire is like saying the Sol System is the entire Imperium.

The Eldar Empire explicitly had no threats at all. The DAOT was nothing to the Imperial Eldar. Letting humans near Eldar Empire worlds is like me letting a hedgehog live in my garden. I could kill it and its whole family but I have no reason to at all, it's cute.

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pm713 wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?


Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.


Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.

The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.


No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.

That's plain wrong. There's a webway portal on the moon. I'm really sick of that mistake. The HEART of the Eldar Empire got turned into the Eye of Terror, the whole thing was galaxy spanning. Saying the Eye of Terror is the whole Eldar Empire is like saying the Sol System is the entire Imperium.

The Eldar Empire explicitly had no threats at all. The DAOT was nothing to the Imperial Eldar. Letting humans near Eldar Empire worlds is like me letting a hedgehog live in my garden. I could kill it and its whole family but I have no reason to at all, it's cute.


Agreed. Any quick look at any of the maps in the various Eldar Codices will show Eldar sites and worlds to span the galaxy. And even so, the galaxy is so vast, that polities can exist in the same volume of space, just like how there are pocket empires throughout nominally Imperial space.

Once again there is also this flawed idea that being dominant and secure necessarily means exterminating every single thing in your vicinity. By that flawed logic then any human is not secure in their house because they have not rid their backyard of every blade of grass or insect and turned their yard into a lifeless moonscape.
   
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I'm not sure it would be that different

The big E would have still risen and taken Earth and most likely founded the Primarchs and the Legions to unify humanity whilst working on not poking the Eldar too much until after a stable IoM was in place

I suspect if the Eldar sensed any danger they would manipulate fate for a Heresy level event to occur as why waste Eldar lives when you could get to monkeys to kill each other, which because they aren't as clever as they like to think fuel Chaos across the galaxy, leading to a fractured but constant threat across the galaxy, not really a threat to them but bad news for everyone else

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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Earth

pm713 wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Jazzylee wrote:
As the title says above, what if the empire the Eldar once had didn't fall? How would this affect the Imperium when they start to rise? Would Chaos still be a problem too, like it is in current lore?


Well mankind spanned the galaxy before the fall, so there would be a serious competition between the eldar and man, though I would have to bet on the eldar coming out on top.


Well, there were certainly a lot more Eldar than there were humans at the time, but I doubt they would defeat the Imperium. It would most likely end in some sort of stalemate between the two and both calling for an EXTREMELY uneasy truce.

The Imperium wouldn't be a thing. The Legions would have been crushed before they left our solar system.


No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.

That's plain wrong. There's a webway portal on the moon. I'm really sick of that mistake. The HEART of the Eldar Empire got turned into the Eye of Terror, the whole thing was galaxy spanning. Saying the Eye of Terror is the whole Eldar Empire is like saying the Sol System is the entire Imperium.

The Eldar Empire explicitly had no threats at all. The DAOT was nothing to the Imperial Eldar. Letting humans near Eldar Empire worlds is like me letting a hedgehog live in my garden. I could kill it and its whole family but I have no reason to at all, it's cute.



Your the wrong one PM, he has as much fluff backing his statement as you do yours, IE almost none, DAOT humans are explicitly stated to have had no rivals, eldar empire are explicitly stated to have had no rivals, also with a webway portal on the moon, it's quite likely they were allies anyway, no empire, no matter how powerful it believes itself to be, would allow a possible enemy to have access to the centre of its empire OR be totally surrounded by a possible enemy.
   
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How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.

Why would they be allies?

Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

pm713 wrote:
How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.

Why would they be allies?

Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...


You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.

As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.
   
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Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/27 18:39:34


 
   
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 Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.

Why would they be allies?

Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...


You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.

As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.

The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?

There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.

You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/27 19:33:41


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
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Earth

Except those rabbits out breed you and have weapons more than capable of ending your empire no matter how powerful you think you are, both factions could destroy solar systems for Christ sake (by destroying it's star), you don't throw that kind of warfare around as it makes any other kind pointless, psychic, ground and ship warfare becomes worthless in the face of that.

And no the eldar empire was not all over the galaxy PM, it has a very very few world's outside it's main empire, that's it, maiden world's, exodite worlds and the craftworlds (just before the fall), where as humanity is literally found everywhere, with only the orks being on more planets, your rabbit analogy is apt here.

As for walking up to a nuclear bunker and not knowing how to open the door, they had the tech, were allies with the eldar (beast series IIRC) and knew the webway existed, the only thing they needed was a key, psykers, which they had, kind of why they fell too.
   
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A lot of it depends how the Empire 'doesn't fall' - because the Dark Age of Technology human empire is still potentially destined to get buggered regardless of whether the empire goes crash or not - it fell for two reasons, firstly the psyker emergence and warp storms led to the fall of the eldar, and secondly the Iron Men deciding to lightly exterminate their creators.

An intact eldar empire versus an intact dark age humanity - it's probably in the eldar's favour but it's going to be bloody and verging on mutually assured destruction. An intact eldar empire versus age of strife humanity is a different question entirely, especially if the reason the eldar empire hasn't fallen is that the eldar don't dissappear up their own introspective hedonistic butthole and remain the energetic warrior race which fought in the War in Heaven and conquered the galaxy after the enslaver plague died down.


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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.


Actually, by the time humanity bult its first warp engine and started to colonise the stars in M18, the Eldars were already starting their decadence. They allowed humanity to colonise and spread around hte galaxy because they thought we were funny. If the Fall didn't happened, its probable that neitehr would have their decadence since the two are linked. The Eldar Empire still at full strength would have simply crushed humanity whenever they wanted. One must also remember that due to their decadence Eldars had forgotten war and had to learn it again after the Fall. At the zenith of the Eldar Empire, the basic Eldar warrior was a powerful psyker and elite combattant (think a warlock) since they were unaffraid of using their psychic powers like modern 40K Eldars.
   
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pm713 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.

Why would they be allies?

Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...


You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.

As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.

The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?

There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.

You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.


Nonsense, the Imperium doesn't have anything like the technology they used to, they are practically orks in comparison to the DAOT and the Eldar have problems fighting the Imperium when they are equally matched.

The Eldar Empire was large but it didn't span the galaxy, the eye of terror is where it used to be. Mankind and the Imperium spanned far more space-time than the Eldar, even though their actual empire wasn't as big population wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No they wouldn't, the Eldar weren't anywhere near earths solar system. When the Eldar were on top Mankind spanned most of the galaxy and they never got crushed. The Eldar were in the space where the eye of terror is, mankind had far more planets and systems than the eldar did and their technology during the DAOT rivaled that of the eldar. I mean Cadia was a human settlement and that was right next to the eye of terror. Again humanity never got crushed by them, even when they had systems so close to the eldar empire.


Actually, by the time humanity bult its first warp engine and started to colonise the stars in M18, the Eldars were already starting their decadence. They allowed humanity to colonise and spread around hte galaxy because they thought we were funny. If the Fall didn't happened, its probable that neitehr would have their decadence since the two are linked. The Eldar Empire still at full strength would have simply crushed humanity whenever they wanted. One must also remember that due to their decadence Eldars had forgotten war and had to learn it again after the Fall. At the zenith of the Eldar Empire, the basic Eldar warrior was a powerful psyker and elite combattant (think a warlock) since they were unaffraid of using their psychic powers like modern 40K Eldars.


Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread. That's your head cannon. The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/28 13:08:22


 
   
 
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