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Movement Phase
Remove all mention of "Fall Back" in the Movement Phase. Change the "Enemy Models" section to read:
Enemy Models
All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. You cannot pick a unit to move in the Movement phase if it is within 1" of an enemy unit. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.

Charge Phase
This section is wholly replaced with the following:
CHARGE SEQUENCE
1. Choose unit to charge or fall back
2. If charging, choose targets
3. Enemy resolves Overwatch or Overrun
4. Make charge or fall back move

1. Choose Unit to Charge or Fall Back
Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your Charge phase can attempt a Charge. You may not choose a unit that Advanced this turn. Any of your units within 1" of an enemy cannot Charge, but can instead Fall Back.

No unit can be selected to Charge and/or Fall Back more than once each Charge phase.

2. If Charging, Choose Targets
Once you have chosen an eligible unit to Charge, select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the Charge.

3. Enemy Resolves Overwatch Or Overrun
Each time a Charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

Each time a unit Falls Back, enemy units within 1" can immediately Overrun the escaping models, striking at them as they retreat. A unit can potentially Overrun several times a turn. Overrun is resolved like a normal close combat attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the attacking model’s Weapon Skill or any modifiers. Overrun attacks can only target the unit that Fell Back, and cannot target models that can FLY.

4. Make Charge or Fall Back Move
After any Overwatch has been resolved, roll 2D6. Each model in the Charging unit can move up to this number of inches – this is their charge distance this turn. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the Charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its Charge. If this is impossible, the Charge fails and no models in the Charging unit move this phase. If the datasheet for a model says it can FLY, it can Charge across models and terrain as if they were not there.

After any Overrun attacks have been resolved, each model in a unit that Fell Back can move as if it were the Movement phase. A unit that Fell Back cannot Advance, and must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units. If this is impossible, the unit fails to Fall Back and no models in the unit can move.

Once you’ve moved all the models in a unit that Charged or Fell Back, choose another eligible unit and repeat the above procedure until all eligible units that you want to Charge or Fall Back have done so.

Heroic Intervention
At the end of the enemy Charge phase, after the enemy has completed all of their Charge and Fall Back moves, any of your CHARACTERS that are within 3" of an enemy unit may perform a Heroic Intervention. Models that perform a Heroic Intervention can move up to 3", so long as they end the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

Other Rules
Fall Back and Shoot
Abilities that allow a unit to fall back and still shoot (e.g. Ultramarines: Codex Discipline, Super-Heavy Walkers) are separated into one of three versions, in order of weakest to strongest:

At the start of your Shooting phase, instead of shooting this unit can Fall Back as if it were the Charge phase. Units that do so cannot Charge that turn.

At the end of your Movement phase, this unit can Fall Back as if it were the Charge phase. Units that do so subtract 1 from their hit rolls and cannot Charge for the rest of the turn.

At the end of your Movement phase, this unit can Fall Back as if it were the Charge phase. Units that do so cannot Charge that turn.

Fall Back and Charge
Abilities that allow a unit to fall back and still charge (e.g. White Scars: Lightning Assault, Evil Sunz: Speed Freek) are separated into one of two versions, in order of weakest to strongest:

This unit can be selected to Charge and Fall Back once each in the same phase.

At the start of your Shooting phase, instead of shooting this unit can Fall Back as if it were the Charge phase.

At the start of your Shooting phase, this unit can Fall Back as if it were the Charge phase. Units that do so subtract 1 from their hit rolls for the rest of that phase.

Free Movement
Abilities that allow a unit to freely fall back and charge/shoot (e.g. Hit And Run, Rising Crescendo) without restriction or penalty are separated into one of two versions, in order of weakest to strongest:

At the end of your Movement phase, this unit can Fall Back as if it were the Charge phase.

At the end of your Movement phase, this unit can Fall Back as if it were the Charge phase. Add 1 to this unit's saving throws against Overrun attacks.

At the end of your Movement phase, this unit can Fall Back as if it were the Charge phase. Enemy units cannot make Overrun attacks against this unit.

Prevent Fall Back
Abilities that prevent fall back (e.g. No Escape, Soporific Musk) can be left unchanged, or turned into Overrrun boosts, e.g:

When this unit makes Overrun attacks, a 5 or 6 is required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the attacking model’s Weapon Skill or any modifiers.

When this unit makes Overrun attacks, the target unit's Movement characteristic is reduced by 1 for every model it kills (minimum 1") for the rest of that phase.

When an enemy unit within 1" of this unit Falls Back, your opponent must subtract 1 from saving throws made for that unit that Fell Back for the rest of that phase.

************
Currently, Fall Back is amazing. If you have a unit in melee, you can order it to Fall Back in your Movement phase. The result is that:

Your unit can avoid being attacked in the Fight phase, thereby cutting in half the damage a powerful melee enemy can inflict.

Your unit can reposition to cover or safety, and the enemy will need to charge again next turn, eating more Overwatch as a result.

The rest of your army can shoot at the enemy unit you Fell Back from, thereby allowing you to eliminate a potential threat left stranded in the open.

In exchange, your unit can't shoot (which they couldn't do anyway) and can't charge (which you obviously didn't want to do, or why would you have them Fall Back?).

Unless, of course, they can FLY, or are one of the many units (including entire Factions) capable of shooting when they Fall Back anyway, in which case the lack of downside just became another plus.

This version moves Fall Back to the Charge phase - and therefore, after the Shooting phase. It also adds a melee equivalent of Overwatch, called Overrun, performed against units that Fall Back rather than those which Charge. Under this model, the result of Falling Back is that:

Your unit will take a much smaller amount of damage than it normally would in the Fight phase (or the equivalent: Overrun), thereby reducing the damage a powerful melee enemy can inflict.

Your unit can reposition to cover or safety, and the enemy will need to charge again next turn, eating more Overwatch as a result.

That's it.

If Fall Back moves to after the Shooting phase, there's no cartoonish moment where the dust clears and the Khorne Berzerkers blink in confusion to find the lone surviving Guardsman sprinting off into the distance and every other gun in the regiment trained on them. Melee remains a safe haven against non-Overwatch shooting, and Falling Back becomes more of a gamble, because it doesn't completely eliminate casualties from melee. This does make abilities that allow Fall Back-and-Shoot more powerful, by comparison - but in most cases they can be changed into "Fall Back in the Shooting phase" so that everyone else can shoot. Like they used to be able to. Replace "Get Back In The Fight" with "Hostiles Sighted" in Orders, for example.

Thoughts? Is this what melee needs?

Sounds pretty close to what is needed. With a few things that would need to be tweaked.

I would probably add something like "A unit that was charged successfully cannot make a Fall back move in the same phase" SO as to actually prevent people from just falling back after being charged

Othewise, i can't think of anything else that needs adressing atm

mchammadad wrote:
Sounds pretty close to what is needed. With a few things that would need to be tweaked.

I would probably add something like "A unit that was charged successfully cannot make a Fall back move in the same phase" SO as to actually prevent people from just falling back after being charged

Othewise, i can't think of anything else that needs adressing atm

Cool!

In reference to your feedback, you can only pick your units to move in your Charge phase - whether they're charging or falling back. So you can't be charged in your own Charge phase, and you can't Fall Back in your opponent's Charge phase. You'd only need a line like that if you were playing with alternating activations.

RevlidRas wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
Sounds pretty close to what is needed. With a few things that would need to be tweaked.

I would probably add something like "A unit that was charged successfully cannot make a Fall back move in the same phase" SO as to actually prevent people from just falling back after being charged

Othewise, i can't think of anything else that needs adressing atm

Cool!

In reference to your feedback, you can only pick your units to move in your Charge phase - whether they're charging or falling back. So you can't be charged in your own Charge phase, and you can't Fall Back in your opponent's Charge phase. You'd only need a line like that if you were playing with alternating activations.

What about Heroic Interventions?

I don't THINK you'd have to address them, since they happen at the end of your opponent's charge phase, but just make sure.

 JNAProductions wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
Sounds pretty close to what is needed. With a few things that would need to be tweaked.

I would probably add something like "A unit that was charged successfully cannot make a Fall back move in the same phase" SO as to actually prevent people from just falling back after being charged

Othewise, i can't think of anything else that needs adressing atm

Cool!

In reference to your feedback, you can only pick your units to move in your Charge phase - whether they're charging or falling back. So you can't be charged in your own Charge phase, and you can't Fall Back in your opponent's Charge phase. You'd only need a line like that if you were playing with alternating activations.

What about Heroic Interventions?

I don't THINK you'd have to address them, since they happen at the end of your opponent's charge phase, but just make sure.

Hm, yeah, screwing around with what phase things happen makes it easy to miss things like this... I don't think this change actually affects Heroic Interventions, but they are part of the Charge phase, so I'll add the section with minor amends to make it clear that it's not affected.

Sounds good. Id keep falling back with fly in charge phase but immune to overrun. And give back charging over screens with fly

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
Sounds good. Id keep falling back with fly in charge phase but immune to overrun. And give back charging over screens with fly

Oh, that's a good thought.

I'm all for this.
Pistol ability is rarely if ever used in melee because no opponent is ever dumb enough to hang about to let it happen, preferring to back out, surrender a turn for one unit, shoot the hell out of the melee unit and force what's left of it to charge through overwatch again.
Even just allowing a reverse overwatch would be wonderful, people get a chance to punish units as they attack, they should be able to punish them as they retreat.

i can also see it as a deathwish if you do fall back from specific units (orks and daemons). Because everyone gets to attack


You can get some really crazy amount of attacks from some armies

I think most of these suggestions have merit and I agree the whole charge and close combat mechanic including falling back could be improved. I’m not sure the best way to do it, but without going down the route of alternate activation I think it’s difficult to strike the right balance. I won’t explore that here since it’s so unlikely that GW would change the game system so drastically, but I do have a couple of ideas to throw out for opinions.

Consider dropping the charge phase entirely and go back to having all charges happen in the movement phase like it used to, so you could elect to charge instead of a regular move or advance move. Make the charge distance the model’s move charactistic plus 2d6. If the charge fails, then you still move up to the distance in your move characteristic plus the lower of the 2 dice rolled, but the unit counts as advancing. (The lower of the two dice since otherwise there would be little reason not to just declare a charge instead of an advance.) the rules in when you can declare a charge would need to be changed. Maybe 18”, or move characteristic +12”? When moving a unit that failed its charge it would still need to move in the same way as the current charge rules, move one model towards the target(s) of the charge. Possibly requiring the model to move as close as possible to one of the targets of the charge. The exact wording of the rule would need to be precise. If this was the case, maybe apply overwatch after the charge move whether or not it passed. I never liked that weapons with 8” range or less like flamers and grenades couldn’t hit a target that’s charging towards it.

This would stop the ridiculous situation where you fail a 3” charge with snake eyes, it would also kill assaulting from deep strike since you couldn’t charge after arriving and that seems to be the whole point of the 9” deep strike rules.

As a result you could make the minimum distance from any enemy units when you deep strike less. Maybe 6” or no limit at all outside of the usual 1” from enemy models rule.

Concerning falling back, I’d definitely bring in some sort of inverse overwatch. A fight attack hitting on a 6 seems like a reasonable way to do this. Maybe have the fallback move happen immediately after the fight instead of consolidating? And I’d have a fallback the same as advance, move plus d6, the unit is effectively running away after all. Consider allowing the usual advance limitations could apply to the unit, they could fire assault weapons.

I’d also be curious to see what sort of impact on the game it would have for the fight phase to happen before the shooting phase. Any unit that fought in that turn’s fight phase wouldn’t be allowed to shoot in the following shooting phase, exactly as if it advanced. Assault weapons then could still fire and those units that are allowed to shoot after falling back still could do so. I think this idea has a lot of merit especially if fallback happens immediately following a fight. If a unit wants to fall back it exposes itself to shooting from the player whose turn it is, making it much less appealing to fall back immediately after being charged. And if they choose to wait until their own turn then they have to survive a second fight phase with the unit that charged them. I’d only allow a unit to fallback after a fight if it didn’t charge that turn.

Not sure how to fit heroic interventions into all of this. Suggestions are welcome!

Sorry that this is all a bit scattershot, not sure if it would work or bits of it might work and other bits not. Just some ideas really to see what people think.

I love this idea. It solves a great deal of issues, very neatly.

Falling back from orks won't be that bad as the attacks hit on 6's. Plus, you have to compare it to the alternative - stay put, and get hit properly! these are combat units - it should be a bad thing to be in combat with them!

mchammadad wrote:
i can also see it as a deathwish if you do fall back from specific units (orks and daemons). Because everyone gets to attack


You can get some really crazy amount of attacks from some armies

The way I see it, Fall Back is currently an opt out button against melee-focused armies. Orks, Tyranids, Daemons, and so on have to slog across the entire board, make a charge, eat Overwatch... and then a turn later the T'au, Guard, Necrons, etc can just say "nah" and wander off. Why? There's no way to opt out against being shot. The only way to avoid being shot is to charge (which gets you shot, because Overwatch is a thing) and then stay in combat (which you can't, because Fall Back is a thing). If a melee unit charges on turn 2, it eats 1-2 turns of shooting, 1 turn of Overwatch, then the target Falls Back and it eats another turn of shooting. Meanwhile, the charged unit eats 1 turn of combat. This is grossly unsatisfying (not to mention ineffective) for the combat-focused player.

This fix effectively turns Fall Back into a delayed version of the Overwatch/Retreat dilemma from Kill Team: do you stick around to occupy the enemy unit and try to get some kicks in? Or is your unit valuable enough that you want to try to escape, taking fewer hits in the process but doing no damage of your own?

Now, there's nothing now stopping the enemy unit from just charging you again next turn... but that's the same as the current set-up for Fall Back. The only difference is that in this version, you only get to hit the enemy with Overwatch, rather than your whole army blasting it to pieces the moment you're clear. Which is, you know, pretty much how a fighting retreat should work. You take less damage, you can move to a different position, and you get to plink away with Overwatch again. Or you could charge the enemy with something ELSE, and tie it down. Which also makes sense – a dramatic rescue!

Truth be told, Overrun isn't even all that necessary to this version of Fall Back – I just think it's appropriate. It's certainly no more offensive than Overwatch – yes, a unit of Ork Boyz that makes it to combat with 20 models can dish out a ton of attacks... but the number that actually hit is cut to a quarter of what it would otherwise be.

You're negating some abilities that let units fall back and charge in the same turn, which I would be against

Aash wrote:
Consider dropping the charge phase entirely and go back to having all charges happen in the movement phase like it used to, so you could elect to charge instead of a regular move or advance move. Make the charge distance the model’s move charactistic plus 2d6. If the charge fails, then you still move up to the distance in your move characteristic plus the lower of the 2 dice rolled, but the unit counts as advancing. (The lower of the two dice since otherwise there would be little reason not to just declare a charge instead of an advance.) the rules in when you can declare a charge would need to be changed. Maybe 18”, or move characteristic +12”? When moving a unit that failed its charge it would still need to move in the same way as the current charge rules, move one model towards the target(s) of the charge. Possibly requiring the model to move as close as possible to one of the targets of the charge. The exact wording of the rule would need to be precise. If this was the case, maybe apply overwatch after the charge move whether or not it passed. I never liked that weapons with 8” range or less like flamers and grenades couldn’t hit a target that’s charging towards it.

The main reason this doesn't happen in 8e is so that models can fire weapons in the Shooting phase and then charge in the Charge phase. Moving charges to the Movement phase means you reduce the power of melee-focused units, because you can't soften up their targets ahead of a charge.

Aash wrote:
This would stop the ridiculous situation where you fail a 3” charge with snake eyes, it would also kill assaulting from deep strike since you couldn’t charge after arriving and that seems to be the whole point of the 9” deep strike rules.

You can't fail a 3" charge with snake eyes, as far as I'm aware? If you're 3" away, and you roll a 2" charge distance, you can move your models 2"... which brings them 1" away from the opponent. Which is a successful charge. I also don't see how moving even on a failed charge would actually stop that situation, if it occurred?

You can charge on a Deep Strike, it's just difficult and risky. Warp Talons, for example, have a rule centred around charging on a Deep Strike.

Aash wrote:
I’d also be curious to see what sort of impact on the game it would have for the fight phase to happen before the shooting phase.

It would punish melee units by allowing the opponent to attack back before they got to shoot them with pistols (or other weapons before the charge). It would punish melee units by allowing the enemy army to shoot them after they wiped out their opponents. That's basically it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
You're negating some abilities that let units fall back and charge in the same turn, which I would be against

I have actually included potential updates for existing Fall Back and Charge, Fall Back and Shoot, and Prevent Fall Back abilities. They're in the OP, under "Other Rules".

For example, the Evil Sunz Warlord trait would read:
Evil Sunz: Speed Freek
Your Warlord and friendly EVIL SUNZ units within 6" of them can Fall Back in the Shooting phase, as if it were the Charge phase. Units that do so cannot shoot that turn.

RevlidRas wrote:
The way I see it, Fall Back is currently an opt out button against melee-focused armies. Orks, Tyranids, Daemons, and so on have to slog across the entire board, make a charge, eat Overwatch... and then a turn later the T'au, Guard, Necrons, etc can just say "nah" and wander off. Why? There's no way to opt out against being shot.

It's called "line of sight blocking terrain".

The only way to avoid being shot is to charge (which gets you shot, because Overwatch is a thing) and then stay in combat (which you can't, because Fall Back is a thing). If a melee unit charges on turn 2, it eats 1-2 turns of shooting, 1 turn of Overwatch, then the target Falls Back and it eats another turn of shooting. Meanwhile, the charged unit eats 1 turn of combat. This is grossly unsatisfying (not to mention ineffective) for the combat-focused player.

Falling Back prevents a unit from shooting, unless they have a very specific rule that allows for them to override that.

Anyways, no. Not unless we move Charging to the Morale Phase or something equally as counterproductive.

 Kanluwen wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:
The way I see it, Fall Back is currently an opt out button against melee-focused armies. Orks, Tyranids, Daemons, and so on have to slog across the entire board, make a charge, eat Overwatch... and then a turn later the T'au, Guard, Necrons, etc can just say "nah" and wander off. Why? There's no way to opt out against being shot.

It's called "line of sight blocking terrain".

Which is rare, static, and also prevents every other interaction in the game, including charges.

Being able to say "nope, you don't get to fight, back to shooting" in your Movement phase is nothing like line-of-sight blocking terrain.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The only way to avoid being shot is to charge (which gets you shot, because Overwatch is a thing) and then stay in combat (which you can't, because Fall Back is a thing). If a melee unit charges on turn 2, it eats 1-2 turns of shooting, 1 turn of Overwatch, then the target Falls Back and it eats another turn of shooting. Meanwhile, the charged unit eats 1 turn of combat. This is grossly unsatisfying (not to mention ineffective) for the combat-focused player.

Falling Back prevents a unit from shooting, unless they have a very specific rule that allows for them to override that.

Yes, you can't shoot at an enemy unit after Falling Back unless you're an Ultramarine, Imperial Guard, Blood Axe, Harlequin, a Flying unit, a super-heavy unit, or have access to the right Stratagem. Or to be more precise, you can't shoot normally – you can still shoot Overwatch next turn.

You know who can shoot at that enemy unit after you Fall Back? The entire rest of your army.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Anyways, no. Not unless we move Charging to the Morale Phase or something equally as counterproductive.

I don't understand what you mean.

Moving Fall Back to the Charge phase makes sense, because it means your "move into combat" and "move out of combat" moves take place in the same phase, and your "shoot charging unit" and "attack fleeing unit" rules exist in the same phase. It also has a clear and intended effect, which is protecting units who started the turn in combat from shooting.

Moving charging to the Morale phase would be nonsensical.

RevlidRas wrote:

Aash wrote:
Consider dropping the charge phase entirely and go back to having all charges happen in the movement phase like it used to, so you could elect to charge instead of a regular move or advance move. Make the charge distance the model’s move charactistic plus 2d6. If the charge fails, then you still move up to the distance in your move characteristic plus the lower of the 2 dice rolled, but the unit counts as advancing. (The lower of the two dice since otherwise there would be little reason not to just declare a charge instead of an advance.) the rules in when you can declare a charge would need to be changed. Maybe 18”, or move characteristic +12”? When moving a unit that failed its charge it would still need to move in the same way as the current charge rules, move one model towards the target(s) of the charge. Possibly requiring the model to move as close as possible to one of the targets of the charge. The exact wording of the rule would need to be precise. If this was the case, maybe apply overwatch after the charge move whether or not it passed. I never liked that weapons with 8” range or less like flamers and grenades couldn’t hit a target that’s charging towards it.

The main reason this doesn't happen in 8e is so that models can fire weapons in the Shooting phase and then charge in the Charge phase. Moving charges to the Movement phase means you reduce the power of melee-focused units, because you can't soften up their targets ahead of a charge.

I don't think moving charging into the movement phase necessarily reduces the power of melee units. Yes it prevents softening up of targets with shooting prior to charging, but in combination with the other suggestions I made, then I think melee units in general would end up as powerful as before, if not more so. Specifically an Overrun type rule for units falling back would punish non melee type units more than melee focused ones, as melee focused units are less likely to fallback, combined with moving fall back to the end of the fight phase instead of the movement phase as I suggested, and the shooting phase coming after the fight phase, then the falling back unit can be finished off with shooting after a fight, which I think balances out with softening up a target with shooting before charging it. In addition, this turn sequence would mean that the target of a charge would be more likely to stay in combat after it was charged rather than falling back the same turn in order to avoid being shot to pieces in the following shooting phase, so would have to endure 2 fight phases after being charged in order to fall back in it's own turn. This still allows units to fall back and still shoot ( a la Ultramarines) but in order to avoid being shoot at out in the open after being charged, would need to endure melee twice before falling back if it wants to shoot in its own shooting phase, and survive the Overrun hits too. On balance I think this would work out as making melee more rather than less effective. I'd want to play test it of course, and you might be right, but I'm not convinced.

RevlidRas wrote:

Aash wrote:
This would stop the ridiculous situation where you fail a 3” charge with snake eyes, it would also kill assaulting from deep strike since you couldn’t charge after arriving and that seems to be the whole point of the 9” deep strike rules.

You can't fail a 3" charge with snake eyes, as far as I'm aware? If you're 3" away, and you roll a 2" charge distance, you can move your models 2"... which brings them 1" away from the opponent. Which is a successful charge. I also don't see how moving even on a failed charge would actually stop that situation, if it occurred?

You can charge on a Deep Strike, it's just difficult and risky. Warp Talons, for example, have a rule centred around charging on a Deep Strike.

Yes, you're right, a 3" charge wouldn't fail, my mistake. I was being hyperbolic to emphasise my point, however, a 4" charge would fail in these circumstances, which I don't think is good. I wasn't suggesting that moving on a failed charge would rectify this situation, there would still be failed charges. However I was suggesting that if charging happens in the movement phase and if this were the case and failed charges didn't move then the unit that failed to charge would not move at all that turn, which is not what I'd like to see. So to fix this, I suggest that chargers move even if they fail, but the move is limited to a similar distance to if the unit advanced.
To address the issue of failing 4" charges - If the charge occurs in the move phase as I suggested, then the charge distance would be the movement characteristic +2d6, so a charge would never fail if it was within the move characteristic +3 of the charging unit. Yes, charges could still fail, but this would prevent a unit being very close to a target unit and being unable to successfully complete a charge against it.
Regarding the Warp Talons and similar, their special rule could be reworded to accommodate the new turn sequence and allow them to make a charge move after deepstriking. Personally I dislike the gamble of charging from deepstrike with the 9" rule, but maybe that's just me.

RevlidRas wrote:

Aash wrote:
I’d also be curious to see what sort of impact on the game it would have for the fight phase to happen before the shooting phase.

It would punish melee units by allowing the opponent to attack back before they got to shoot them with pistols (or other weapons before the charge). It would punish melee units by allowing the enemy army to shoot them after they wiped out their opponents. That's basically it.

Again, I'm suggesting this change in combination with the others is suggested rather than independently of them. I think they would synergize together to improve the effectiveness of melee rather punish melee. I don't see how it would punish a melee unit from wiping out its opponent, that's exactly what happens now. In the current rule-set, if melee unit wipes out its opponent in melee in its own turn it will be exposed to enemy shooting in the opponents turn. In my suggestion this couldn't happen. Instead if a melee unit wipes out its opponent in its opponent's turn then it will be exposed to the opponent's shooting. I see this as roughly equitable, but if it favours anything, it would favour strong melee units that are able to wipe out a unit in the same turn that it charges as this wouldn't be immediately followed by the enemy shooting, but your own shooting, so you could pick targets in order to minimize the exposure if the victorious melee unit if desired.

And regarding pistols - a little off topic, but I'd go back to allowing them to be used in melee rather than a shooting attack that can be used in to fire while "locked in combat". I'd have them perform similarly to chainswords - they can make an additional close combat attack with the pistol using that weapon's profile. This wouldn't disallow their use in the shooting phase, but I'd have them operate in the shooting phase the same as an assault weapon.

RevlidRas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:
The way I see it, Fall Back is currently an opt out button against melee-focused armies. Orks, Tyranids, Daemons, and so on have to slog across the entire board, make a charge, eat Overwatch... and then a turn later the T'au, Guard, Necrons, etc can just say "nah" and wander off. Why? There's no way to opt out against being shot.

It's called "line of sight blocking terrain".

Which is rare, static, and also prevents every other interaction in the game, including charges.

Being able to say "nope, you don't get to fight, back to shooting" in your Movement phase is nothing like line-of-sight blocking terrain.

Except that's not how it works.

It's "Nope, you got to fight and now I can get out of the fight a turn later. Also, I can't shoot.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Except that's not how it works.

It's "Nope, you got to fight and now I can get out of the fight a turn later. Also, I can't shoot.

Okay, let me put it another way.

If I've got a shooty unit, it can shoot every turn of the game, including the vital first turn.

The only way my melee opponent can force that unit to stop shooting is to successfully charge it, in which case it loses one turn of shooting. Except it can fire Overwatch, so it actually loses less than one turn of shooting.

Unless, again, it belongs to the right Faction, has the right Abilities, has the right Stratagem, or can Fly. In which case it does not even lose "less than one turn" of shooting.

And even if it does lose "less than one turn of shooting", the rest of my army – which I can pack with similar shooty units – can still shoot just fine.

If I've got a combat unit, it can only fight when it is within 1" of an enemy unit.

Once it gets within 1" of an enemy unit, my opponent can force it to stop fighting by falling back, in which case it loses one turn of fighting.

Then it gets shot by the rest of the army, and possibly the unit that fell back.

Then it can charge again, and get shot again.

Charging is a gamble, costs your opponent less than a turn of shooting, gets you shot, and can't prevent the opponent's army from shooting you on the next turn. Falling back is reliable, costs your opponent a turn of melee, allows you to avoid attacks entirely, and opens up your opponent to concentrated fire.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean it's a stupid idea that clearly hasn't been thought through beyond "My assault army can't be good because x, y, or z so here's how I think I can win".

Well, that's a little bit more hostile than I was expecting, but I mainly play Imperial Guard. The more you know!

In this case, I think it's actually pretty clear that a decent amount of thought has gone into this. Two problems with melee, as I see them, are that Falling Back carries no risks and close combat no longer protects you from shooting. This change quite elegantly addresses both problems – although as I've said earlier, I think Overrun is actually unnecessary once you've moved Fall Back into the Charge phase.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Move out of combat" is done during the Movement Phase, because it is your actual Movement.
If you Fall Back? That's your Movement, Shooting, and Assault--all gone for the turn unless you have special rules that let you ignore that.

Can you explain what makes Fall Back into "your actual Movement", in a way that doesn't also apply to Charging? Both are unusual forms of movement that are only available based on your proximity to enemy units.

The only reason Charging takes place outside of the Movement phase is because the writers found it desirable, in mechanical terms, to allow you to shoot before you charged. The only reason I'm moving Fall Back out of your Movement phase is because I find it undesirable, in mechanical terms, to allow you to target an enemy for shooting after falling back from him. How are these two things different?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Moving charging to the Morale phase would be nonsensical.

Of course it would, but the same thing goes for moving Fall Backs to the Charge Phase.

No, I don't think it does.

Charging in the Morale phase makes no sense, because Morale is a totally different concept from charging, Morale is a totally different process to charging, the two mechanics do not intersect at all, and the resulting phase order would make it impossible to ever fight. There is no benefit to making this change, the change is unintuitive, and the change breaks the game.

Falling Back in the Charge phase makes sense, because they are both forms of movement that involve combat, the two mechanics directly intersect, and the resulting phase order protects units in melee from being shot. There is a direct benefit to the change (albeit one you may not agree with), and the change does not break the game.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You literally complained in this thread about how you need to be in combat to get protections. If I can fall back from you having charged, during the charge phase, guess what?
I CAN STILL SHOOT YOU WHEN MY TURN COMES UP.

It's the same thing either way, you've solved nothing other than make it so the rule is more wordy and less intuitive.

...wait, why do you think you can Fall Back in your opponent's Charge phase?

I'm not quoting all your nonsense, but here's the keynotes:

Charging is a gamble, costs your opponent less than a turn of shooting, gets you shot, and can't prevent the opponent's army from shooting you on the next turn. Falling back is reliable, costs your opponent a turn of melee, allows you to avoid attacks entirely, and opens up your opponent to concentrated fire.

It's nowhere near the gamble that it used to be. There's enough in the game that can be used to shut down Overwatch that let's not pretend people don't know it exists.

If they aren't using it? That's on them.

Can you explain what makes Fall Back into "your actual Movement", in a way that doesn't also apply to Charging? Both are unusual forms of movement that are only available based on your proximity to enemy units.

Fall Back is your Movement. It happens during your actual Movement phase, it uses up your Movement Phase, and it then eats up everything else you can do.

It's not "unusual" anymore than Charges are.

The only reason Charging takes place outside of the Movement phase is because the writers found it desirable, in mechanical terms, to allow you to shoot before you charged. The only reason I'm moving Fall Back out of your Movement phase is because I find it undesirable, in mechanical terms, to allow you to target an enemy for shooting after falling back from him. How are these two things different?

Seriously? You don't understand why Charging takes place outside of the Movement phase?

It's because they want you to be able to use your Movement phase to set up Charges.

...wait, why do you think you can Fall Back in your opponent's Charge phase?

Because if you're not allowed to do that, then it's just as garbage for any shooting army as you lot are claiming the Shooting Phase is for any melee army.

It just swings the pendulum the other way.

Also: See literally any edition of WHFB or 40k where "Stand and Shoot" reactions existed.
You either get to Overwatch/Shoot or you retreat.

I have nits to pick with the Other Rules sections (mostly desiring to remove a few of the details to make Overrun less powerful and the resolution of those rules simpler), but I really like the general concept. I'd totally play with these rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It's nowhere near the gamble that it used to be. There's enough in the game that can be used to shut down Overwatch that let's not pretend people don't know it exists.

If they aren't using it? That's on them.

Feels disingenuous. While there are a few ways to shut down overwatch, many of them are in the form of second-string relics and warlord traits that simply aren't as useful as their first-string counterparts. And anyone charging with multiple squads of orks and daemons is probably going to struggle to shut down all that much overwatch.

...wait, why do you think you can Fall Back in your opponent's Charge phase?

Because if you're not allowed to do that, then it's just as garbage for any shooting army as you lot are claiming the Shooting Phase is for any melee army.

It just swings the pendulum the other way.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not quoting all your nonsense, but here's the keynotes:

Again, there's no need to be hostile. I really do value your feedback, which is why I'm setting out my thoughts and trying to understand yours.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's nowhere near the gamble that it used to be. There's enough in the game that can be used to shut down Overwatch that let's not pretend people don't know it exists.

If they aren't using it? That's on them.

I don't think I agree? As far as I'm aware, Howling Banshees are the only unit in the game that simply negate Overwatch (I could be wrong). Reivers negate Overwatch if their Grenades hit, and Warp Talons do so on the turn they Deep Strike. Then you have a Faction-specific Space Marine Warlord Trait, a Faction-specific Relic for Drukhari, and a Faction-specific 2CP Stratagem for Harlequins. Am I missing any?

It certainly seems much less readily available and reliable than Fall-Back-and-Shoot, which you've dismissed as being a rare special ability.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Fall Back is your Movement. It happens during your actual Movement phase, it uses up your Movement Phase, and it then eats up everything else you can do.

It's not "unusual" anymore than Charges are.

I'm using "unusual" to refer to the fact that it's not normal movement. Like Advancing and Charging, moving a unit with Fall Back comes with certain extra conditions and restrictions and rules as compared to just moving. This makes it unusual.

If you Fall Back in your Movement phase, it means you can't move, advance, shoot, or charge, because the rules explicitly tell you so.

If you Fall Back in your Charge phase, it means you can't move or advance, because you were within 1" of an enemy unit in the Movement phase. It means you can't shoot (except for Pistols), because you were within 1" of an enemy unit in the Shooting phase. And it means you can't charge, because the rules explicitly tell you so.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Seriously? You don't understand why Charging takes place outside of the Movement phase?

It's because they want you to be able to use your Movement phase to set up Charges.

On this point I'm afraid you're just wrong. If this were the sole reason, we wouldn't need a Charge phase at all - charging could take place at the end of the Movement phase (as it did, in some editions) or it could just be a special form of Movement, like Advancing, where you move normally and then declare a charge.

There are only two consequences to moving charging into its own phase, just before the Fight phase. First, it forces you to Fall Back before any charging, meaning it's harder to avoid Overwatch. Second, it allows you to shoot before charging without Pistols, softening up enemy units. These are the only reasons to have the Charge phase.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Because if you're not allowed to do that, then it's just as garbage for any shooting army as you lot are claiming the Shooting Phase is for any melee army.

It just swings the pendulum the other way.

Also: See literally any edition of WHFB or 40k where "Stand and Shoot" reactions existed.
You either get to Overwatch/Shoot or you retreat.

Running away in WHFB meant the risk of your whole unit being run down and butchered, or losing multiple turns as you tried to rally it back. In addition, ranged weaponry was much less ubiquitous, being almost always exclusive to specialized ranged units who would fold like a house of cards in any form of combat. Stand-and-shoot was also less reliable, applying only to frontal charges and not with more powerful ranged options like warmachines. The resulting dynamic was totally different: running away was a huge gamble that wasn't under your control after the first turn of combat.

If your unit ran from a charge, you'd definitely get to avoid combat, but only because your unit could very well be entirely removed from the board.

Comparing this mechanic to previous editions works in this mechanic's favour: in past editions, combat locked you in until you died or fled (risking death). This mimics that dynamic, but is much less harsh on ranged armies, who can't just be "run down" and get much more control over who flees and when.

Off the top of my head i can think of no less than five armies that can fall back and shoot reliably.

Space marines,Imperial Guard, Tau empire, Dark eldar, Eldar and Imperial Knights.

Do you know something that is inherent with all of those armies? They have access to large amounts of ranged firepower.

I can tell you right now as a mono khorne melee based army i frequently struggle to fight these armies in entire city terrain tables where 80% of the board is almost LOS blocking. Yet i always hear the same argument from those whom don't realize that their shooting is too easy.

Fall back has always been the bane of all melee armies, in fact the only reason why some units are considered "OP" is because they deny you the ability to fall back without any penalties (case in point Skarbrand)

But three units in the game that deny you running away is nothing from the literal mountain of units that can shoot you. So saying that your precious fall back is fine where it is shows you do not understand the flaws within this current ruleset.

If a melee unit has to have a specific unit to make their army viable. Then the game is inherently flawed because it has been forced that way.

In that scenario you would change the system so that unit isn't necessary, but rather a compliment.


If you can say "Changing fall back to charge phase is OP. Then what about making it so you can't shoot that unit if it was disengaged from CC in the same turn? cause that is the equivalent to being able to shoot it when that one unit falls back from the unit

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's nowhere near the gamble that it used to be. There's enough in the game that can be used to shut down Overwatch that let's not pretend people don't know it exists.

I'm sorry, but charging used to be a fairly definitive stroke in the game. When my orks hit the enemy, that was the tipping point of the game - either they had killed enough units, or they hadn't, or they had some tricks up their sleeves. Nowadays, you get out of your trukk to charge, eat overwatch, charge, do your attacks etc, and then the opponent (if they survive) walk away. they just walk away. here's me standing in the open, fire at will.

Used to be you got to combat and you hoped that the enemy survived to fight in their turn, so you could be safe from the guns. now there's literally no way (except surrounding the enemy, good luck there) to have your fairly fragile CC army, who were relying on their trukks and wagons to protect them from the guns, do anything but get shot the next turn. you could charge the entire enemy army, and they would just walk away. as said before, there's a lot which lets you shoot after falling back. screens can literally move 1.1" away, and keep you moving 1 inch a turn until you kill them out of the way. screens used to be a 2 edged sword - you stop the combat army, because they are fighting your chaff. not because your chaff held up a stop sign, a few die, and then your army blows the chargers to smithereens. it's just not right.

Basically, if a shooting army gets charged, it's not doing it right. can you imagine telling the guardsmen that their job is to stand in the way of khorne bezerkers, "but it's ok because you can just walk away from them after".

falling back should either be done after the shooting phase, or it should not be a given - the unit you are leaving should have a chance to catch you. This would be an alternative to the overrun - basically meaning a unit who tries and fails to flee is either hit easier in the following combat or hits on 6's in the following combat. falling back should be a gamble, not a given. It used to be you could fall back reliably if another unit held them off - that's probably a good way to aim for; you can't overrun unless all units you're in combat with choose to fall back. this gives tactical flexibility whilst still leaving the combat unit in combat - so protected from shooting.

fall back should be a tactical decision, not a no-brainer.

@Kanluwen What's disingenuous about your argument of allowing movements outside of movement phase is against the very design of the game is that movements happens literally in every phase of the game except morale - psychic: move as if movement, shooting: fall back, charge: charging, fight: pile in & consolidate.

Your argument revoling around negative consequences of falling back is moot because tactical advantages gained from falling back is exponentially greater than its consequences. Who cares if a line of guardsmen can't shoot against the target it disengaged from when rest of the army can just pummel at it?

You're right about charging being more definite than ever before - it indeed is a sure way to throw away your units. The only way for charging can be made worthwhile is if you wombo combo 5CP's with berserkers. There's no excuse for a phase to work only if you're essentially forced to dump your entire resource pool to do so.

@RevlidRas Kanluwen is known to be rude in his posts. Don't take it personally.

 some bloke wrote:

I'm sorry, but charging used to be a fairly definitive stroke in the game. When my orks hit the enemy, that was the tipping point of the game - either they had killed enough units, or they hadn't, or they had some tricks up their sleeves.

To be fair, what you're describing isn't really ideal either. If the game is effectively over when you make your first batch of charges, then the rest of the game becomes pretty uninteresting. Praying that the dice go cold and give you a chance to not lose for the last 3 turns of the game is about as much fun as praying the dice are cold enough for you to cross the table in the first 3 turns of the game.

That said, I agree with the general thrust of your post. Falling back in the charge phase seems like a nice middle-ground between the scenario described in the part I've quoted and the current state of affairs. It gives shooty and balanced armies a chance to stay in the game by using counter charge units, movement blocking after falling back, feeding less important units to the grinder, etc. It also rewards melee armies for making it into melee by not letting their opponent simply skip away while their pals continue shooting.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 some bloke wrote:

I'm sorry, but charging used to be a fairly definitive stroke in the game. When my orks hit the enemy, that was the tipping point of the game - either they had killed enough units, or they hadn't, or they had some tricks up their sleeves.

To be fair, what you're describing isn't really ideal either. If the game is effectively over when you make your first batch of charges, then the rest of the game becomes pretty uninteresting. Praying that the dice go cold and give you a chance to not lose for the last 3 turns of the game is about as much fun as praying the dice are cold enough for you to cross the table in the first 3 turns of the game.

That said, I agree with the general thrust of your post. Falling back in the charge phase seems like a nice middle-ground between the scenario described in the part I've quoted and the current state of affairs. It gives shooty and balanced armies a chance to stay in the game by using counter charge units, movement blocking after falling back, feeding less important units to the grinder, etc. It also rewards melee armies for making it into melee by not letting their opponent simply skip away while their pals continue shooting.

It'd work better if it happened at the end of shooting phase as to not take away the advantages of units with FLY. You can make it so that models with FLY can fall back at any point in shooting phase as theyre already allowed to fall back and shoot. Of course normal restrictions on no charging after falling back would apply.