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Up until now, I had always assumed that there was pretty much a one to one connection between Khorne Berzerkers and World Eaters, with some exceptions scattered here and there. The first Berzerkers were born out the WE, the vast majority of them are still part of the legion. Also, various warbands like the Crimson Slaughter and the Brazen Beasts do not seem to have Berzerkers, at least not in the traditional sense. Then recently, I read that any Khornate Marine could become a Berzerker, as the definition referred to their behavior, not their specific legion, though I have yet to find any specific examples. As far as Plague Marines go, as far as I know they are almost exclusively Death Guard, as other prominent Nurglite groups such as The Purged do not exhibit the same amount of mutation found in the Death Guard. But theoretically, couldn't any Traitor Marine become a Plague Marine if they were dedicated enough to Nurgle and desired his 'gifts?' Do non-WE Berzerkers and non-DG Plague Marines exist in the official canon?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Up until now, I had always assumed that there was pretty much a one to one connection between Khorne Berzerkers and World Eaters, with some exceptions scattered here and there. The first Berzerkers were born out the WE, the vast majority of them are still part of the legion. Also, various warbands like the Crimson Slaughter and the Brazen Beasts do not seem to have Berzerkers, at least not in the traditional sense. Then recently, I read that any Khornate Marine could become a Berzerker, as the definition referred to their behavior, not their specific legion, though I have yet to find any specific examples. As far as Plague Marines go, as far as I know they are almost exclusively Death Guard, as other prominent Nurglite groups such as The Purged do not exhibit the same amount of mutation found in the Death Guard. But theoretically, couldn't any Traitor Marine become a Plague Marine if they were dedicated enough to Nurgle and desired his 'gifts?' Do non-WE Berzerkers and non-DG Plague Marines exist in the official canon?

Yes. The methods for creating both these types have spread out of the original Legion. There are for example Black Legion Plague Marines. They still only become Plague Marines by becoming dedicated to Nurgle, but they are loyal to the Black Legion rather than the Death Guard.

So in other words, all Death Guard are Plague Marines but not all Plague Marines are Death Guard. Similar situation for Berzerkers and World Eaters.

No. They were the original legions to become those things, but now anyone could become one. Noise marines are also included in this (slaanesh) the outlier is rubric marines, who are only made up of thousands sons who succumbed to ahrimans spell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Up until now, I had always assumed that there was pretty much a one to one connection between Khorne Berzerkers and World Eaters, with some exceptions scattered here and there. The first Berzerkers were born out the WE, the vast majority of them are still part of the legion. Also, various warbands like the Crimson Slaughter and the Brazen Beasts do not seem to have Berzerkers, at least not in the traditional sense. Then recently, I read that any Khornate Marine could become a Berzerker, as the definition referred to their behavior, not their specific legion, though I have yet to find any specific examples. As far as Plague Marines go, as far as I know they are almost exclusively Death Guard, as other prominent Nurglite groups such as The Purged do not exhibit the same amount of mutation found in the Death Guard. But theoretically, couldn't any Traitor Marine become a Plague Marine if they were dedicated enough to Nurgle and desired his 'gifts?' Do non-WE Berzerkers and non-DG Plague Marines exist in the official canon?

Uzas- night lord berserker.
Kroeger- iron warrior berserker
Dragan- plague marine of the Lords of silence. of unknown chapter origin. His previous chapter is unspecified and he can no longer remember his previous life except through random snatches of memory (which is covered in a short story)

Actually not sure whether all Emperor's Children are necessarily Noise Marines. At times there seems to be implied suggestions that other kinds of obsessions might still be present.

Yeah they aren't all noise marines, but they are the main slaanesh specific marines.

No.

All WE are Berzerkers, but not all Berzerkers are WE. Same goes for PMs. It's even made clear in the DG codex the legion is larger post heresy than it was in the HH.

Is it then impossible to have a Death Guard Legionnaire who doesn't become a full blown Plague Marine? As in, Marked for Nurgle, but not a Plague Marine fully? Or a Thousand Son avoiding the Rubric? Or a World Eater not becoming a Berzerker?

Like, it's impossible that some forces of World Eaters didn't fully devolve into the Berzerker attitude? Or some Death Guard weren't present when Typhus trapped the fleet? Or some Thousand Sons, like the ones who Magnus sent away, might not have been affected?

I think the only way for a Thousand Son to dodge the Rubric would be to be a Sorceror or just have left the Legion prior to Ahriman casting the spell.

I'm not sure about World Eaters and Death Guard though. I assume it's possible for a World Eater to commit suicide or somehow avoid turning into a Berserker but from what I know all the Death Guard were turned to Plague Marines.

pm713 wrote:
I think the only way for a Thousand Son to dodge the Rubric would be to be a Sorceror or just have left the Legion prior to Ahriman casting the spell.

I'm not sure about World Eaters and Death Guard though. I assume it's possible for a World Eater to commit suicide or somehow avoid turning into a Berserker but from what I know all the Death Guard were turned to Plague Marines.

Only the Death Guard on the fleet to the final siege of Terra, I thought. If there were any who didn't make it, they could easily be just a "normal" Chaos Marine.

pm713 wrote:
I think the only way for a Thousand Son to dodge the Rubric would be to be a Sorceror or just have left the Legion prior to Ahriman casting the spell.

I'm not sure about World Eaters and Death Guard though. I assume it's possible for a World Eater to commit suicide or somehow avoid turning into a Berserker but from what I know all the Death Guard were turned to Plague Marines.

Has it ever been explained why there aren't new flesh and blood Thousand Sons? Can't gene seed be harvested from Sorcerors and implanted into new recruits?

There are thousand sons who either avoided or survived the rubric, usually due to being potent psykers themselves (khayon and the other TS guy in the black legion novels)

I think by now all death guard have become plagueys and world eaters have all descended into khorne berzerkerhood, although it wasn't an immediate event for them. (see novel: eater of worlds) I need to read more into the kharn novels as that might flesh out the post heresy world eaters a little more.

In short?

No.

Whilst all Deathguard are Plague Marines, not all Plague Marines are Deathguard.

Same for Noise Marines and Bersekers.

The original legions likely hold, or incorporate the best of the examples. But that doesn’t mean their particular cults haven’t spread elsewhere.

Thousand Sons? I’m genuinely unsure. In theory, the Rubric, or a spell like it, could be cast by others. But I do know that a Rubricae can be stopped - but not killed. Given the opportunity, the armour can be made whole again and the tortured spirit stuffed back in.

The Black Legion has members from everywhere. Original Legions, latest turncoats, and everyone in between.

Yet outside of at least Thousand Sons? One just need follow the particular cult, and join it’s members.

-Not all World Eaters are Berzerkers and vice versa.
-Not all Plague Marines are Death Guard and vice versa
-Not all Noise Marines are Emperor's Children and vice versa
-All Rubric Marines are Thousand Sons, but not all Thousand Sons are Rubric Marines.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only way for a Thousand Son to dodge the Rubric would be to be a Sorceror or just have left the Legion prior to Ahriman casting the spell.

I'm not sure about World Eaters and Death Guard though. I assume it's possible for a World Eater to commit suicide or somehow avoid turning into a Berserker but from what I know all the Death Guard were turned to Plague Marines.

Only the Death Guard on the fleet to the final siege of Terra, I thought. If there were any who didn't make it, they could easily be just a "normal" Chaos Marine.

For some reason it's in my head that all the Death Guard were in the fleet to the Battle of Terra but now you mention it I have no idea why. So you could easily have missed out on being in the fleet and stayed a normal Death Guard. Although whether they stayed in the Death Guard is another question seeing as Plague Marines are gross and a bit...crazy.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
-Not all World Eaters are Berzerkers and vice versa.
-Not all Plague Marines are Death Guard and vice versa
-Not all Noise Marines are Emperor's Children and vice versa
-All Rubric Marines are Thousand Sons, but not all Thousand Sons are Rubric Marines.

The only flesh and blood Thousand Sons that survived the Rubric were all Sorcerors. The question though is why there are no newly recruited flesh and blood Thousand Sons that are not Sorcerors.

Is the Rubric still in effect, effectively converting any such new recruit into a Rubric Marine or Sorceror (if they have enough psyker ability)?
Or have the Sorcerors now become so in thrall to Tzeentch that they would only ever consider candidates to become a new Sorceror?

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
-All Rubric Marines are Thousand Sons, but not all Thousand Sons are Rubric Marines.

I think that should be "All Rubric Marines WERE Thousand Sons", since they had to be when created, but now may be part of an individual Sorcerers retinue or part of another war band, ie Black Legion Rubrics are Black Legion, in loyalty as well as livery.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only way for a Thousand Son to dodge the Rubric would be to be a Sorceror or just have left the Legion prior to Ahriman casting the spell.

I'm not sure about World Eaters and Death Guard though. I assume it's possible for a World Eater to commit suicide or somehow avoid turning into a Berserker but from what I know all the Death Guard were turned to Plague Marines.

Only the Death Guard on the fleet to the final siege of Terra, I thought. If there were any who didn't make it, they could easily be just a "normal" Chaos Marine.

For some reason it's in my head that all the Death Guard were in the fleet to the Battle of Terra but now you mention it I have no idea why. So you could easily have missed out on being in the fleet and stayed a normal Death Guard. Although whether they stayed in the Death Guard is another question seeing as Plague Marines are gross and a bit...crazy.

I may by wrong but I think mortarion gave over all the marines regardless of location..

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:


I may by wrong but I think mortarion gave over all the marines regardless of location..

This was my impression as well. all DG are Plague Marine

However this does not mean there are other Plague Marines that have received Nurgle's gift from other legions/chapters.

Fictional wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
-All Rubric Marines are Thousand Sons, but not all Thousand Sons are Rubric Marines.

I think that should be "All Rubric Marines WERE Thousand Sons", since they had to be when created, but now may be part of an individual Sorcerers retinue or part of another war band, ie Black Legion Rubrics are Black Legion, in loyalty as well as livery.

My understanding is that the rubricae are loyal to whichever Sorceror controls them; if he then hands in his notice and joins the Black Legion, then he brings along his dusty minions too.

Apparently all the World Eaters became Berserkers, which I find a little unsatisfying. There's a concept drawing of a World Eaters Devastator with heavy plasma gun in The Gothic and the Eldritch, the collection of Jes Goodwin's concept art, that looked good, and if you blow away a dozen guys with a plasma cannon, that's as good as chopping them up as far as Khorne's concerned.

If Mortarion pledged his entire Legion to Nurgle, then Grandfather's going to collect, even if some of them are on the other side of the Galaxy. Again, though, I'd like to see Death Guard Havoc (and perhaps even Raptors and bikers). You could do it, I suppose, but they wouldn't have the Plague Marine rules, would they? Perhaps you could do an entire Chaos Space Marines force dedicated to Nurgle and use Plague Marines to represent the elites, specially favoured by Nurgle.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Fictional wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
-All Rubric Marines are Thousand Sons, but not all Thousand Sons are Rubric Marines.

I think that should be "All Rubric Marines WERE Thousand Sons", since they had to be when created, but now may be part of an individual Sorcerers retinue or part of another war band, ie Black Legion Rubrics are Black Legion, in loyalty as well as livery.

My understanding is that the rubricae are loyal to whichever Sorceror controls them; if he then hands in his notice and joins the Black Legion, then he brings along his dusty minions too.

They are. There is a rather unnerving bit in Talon of Horus (IIRC) where a bunch of Rubricae bow in reverence to Abaddon to swear fealty to him and the associated Sorcerers look around nervously as they're not supposed to do that.

Nope, not all plague marines are death guard and not all death guard become plague marines, just the ones in mortarions flotilla, as for the world eaters, no again, not all world eaters became bezerkers but most of them did and not all bezerkers are world eaters, I'd imagine very few are by the 40th millennium due to attrition.

I think any traitor marines serving on DG ships would eventuallt succumb to nurgle, so in terms of lore, they would all be plague marines, but some would still have heavy weapons and thus be devastators etc..

for the berzerkers you need to define what a berzerker actually is. is it any marine devoted to khorne? any marine implanted with the butchers nails devoted to khorne? because the berzerkers I mentioned earlier did not have the nails so that seems unlikely. on the other hand, you have lheorvine ukris who is a world eater with the nails, who carries a heavy bolter, and thus would be a devastator marine, but would undoubtedly be described as a berzerker.

personally, game wise, I dont care as its irrelevant to me.

I know as a fact that not all Emperor's Children became Noise marines. Many of them wandered off in other directions. The Fabius Bile series makes this very apparent.

I also know that marines of several legions have become Bezerkers and the like. A marine can fall to any God from any background. There are many examples of this happening in the fluff.

With regards to the Death Guard and World Eaters specifically? I don't know if ALL of them became plague marines and Bezerkers. Thinking it over; given the irreversible nature of the nails, I doubt any World Eaters survived to become anything else. But the Death Guard? Mortarion gave up his sons, but I'm not convinced you can 'give away' the soul of someone else; let alone someone sitting in realspace half a galaxy away. I would not be surprised if the odd Death Guard survives loyal only to themselves or a different God.

 Ketara wrote:
I know as a fact that not all Emperor's Children became Noise marines. Many of them wandered off in other directions. The Fabius Bile series makes this very apparent.

I also know that marines of several legions have become Bezerkers and the like. A marine can fall to any God from any background. There are many examples of this happening in the fluff.

With regards to the Death Guard and World Eaters specifically? I don't know if ALL of them became plague marines and Bezerkers. Thinking it over; given the irreversible nature of the nails, I doubt any World Eaters survived to become anything else. But the Death Guard? Mortarion gave up his sons, but I'm not convinced you can 'give away' the soul of someone else; let alone someone sitting in realspace half a galaxy away. I would not be surprised if the odd Death Guard survives loyal only to themselves or a different God.

a few DG became blackshields during the heresy and possibly after, but I think we're talking marines that serve with the current legions/warbands.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Fictional wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
-All Rubric Marines are Thousand Sons, but not all Thousand Sons are Rubric Marines.

I think that should be "All Rubric Marines WERE Thousand Sons", since they had to be when created, but now may be part of an individual Sorcerers retinue or part of another war band, ie Black Legion Rubrics are Black Legion, in loyalty as well as livery.

My understanding is that the rubricae are loyal to whichever Sorceror controls them; if he then hands in his notice and joins the Black Legion, then he brings along his dusty minions too.

Apparently all the World Eaters became Berserkers, which I find a little unsatisfying. There's a concept drawing of a World Eaters Devastator with heavy plasma gun in The Gothic and the Eldritch, the collection of Jes Goodwin's concept art, that looked good, and if you blow away a dozen guys with a plasma cannon, that's as good as chopping them up as far as Khorne's concerned.

If Mortarion pledged his entire Legion to Nurgle, then Grandfather's going to collect, even if some of them are on the other side of the Galaxy. Again, though, I'd like to see Death Guard Havoc (and perhaps even Raptors and bikers). You could do it, I suppose, but they wouldn't have the Plague Marine rules, would they? Perhaps you could do an entire Chaos Space Marines force dedicated to Nurgle and use Plague Marines to represent the elites, specially favoured by Nurgle.

My problem with the idea that all World Eaters become Berzerkers is that if that was the case, we would not have the new regular CSM models be able to have the WE mark and not simply adopt the Berzerker rules. While I do know that fluff and table rules often don't sync, this fact does leave open the possibility of WE that did not go full Berzerker and managed to maintain some level of control over themselves.

If all Death Guard became Plague Marines, even ones not on Mortarion's ship when he succumbed to Nurgle's corruption, then why hasn't Nathaniel Garro, or Helig Gallor? They're still Death Guard, weren't present in the fleet, and haven't been corrupted.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If all Death Guard became Plague Marines, even ones not on Mortarion's ship when he succumbed to Nurgle's corruption, then why hasn't Nathaniel Garro, or Helig Gallor? They're still Death Guard, weren't present in the fleet, and haven't been corrupted.

The loyal 70 didnt turn and neither did any of the death guard not present in that flotilla, it was a deamonic virus that affected them and only them in buried dagger, however I can easily see others falling to the rot when they link up with the main death guard eventually.

 Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If all Death Guard became Plague Marines, even ones not on Mortarion's ship when he succumbed to Nurgle's corruption, then why hasn't Nathaniel Garro, or Helig Gallor? They're still Death Guard, weren't present in the fleet, and haven't been corrupted.

The loyal 70 didnt turn and neither did any of the death guard not present in that flotilla, it was a deamonic virus that affected them and only them in buried dagger, however I can easily see others falling to the rot when they link up with the main death guard eventually.

Exactly, yeah.
You can even have non-psychic Thousand Sons not be turned to dust - it would just have to be one who wasn't present at both Prospero and Sortiarius.
Berzerkers seem to be the only real constant, and that's because of the Nails, and even then, that's subject to debate.

 Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If all Death Guard became Plague Marines, even ones not on Mortarion's ship when he succumbed to Nurgle's corruption, then why hasn't Nathaniel Garro, or Helig Gallor? They're still Death Guard, weren't present in the fleet, and haven't been corrupted.

The loyal 70 didnt turn and neither did any of the death guard not present in that flotilla, it was a deamonic virus that affected them and only them in buried dagger, however I can easily see others falling to the rot when they link up with the main death guard eventually.

Good point.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

My problem with the idea that all World Eaters become Berzerkers is that if that was the case, we would not have the new regular CSM models be able to have the WE mark and not simply adopt the Berzerker rules. While I do know that fluff and table rules often don't sync, this fact does leave open the possibility of WE that did not go full Berzerker and managed to maintain some level of control over themselves.

What's the "WE mark"? The Mark of Khorne? That's something granted to followers of Khorne, not to members of the World Eaters legion. Having all World Eaters be Berserkers in no way contradicts the idea of having non-berserker Chaos Space Marines dedicated to Khorne; they'd just be from other Legions or Chapters (for example, members of the Black Legion, Iron Warriors or Night Lords could follow Khorne, or there's the example of the Crimson Slaughter).