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Facing tough ITC meta

Battalion #1
Beil-Tan
Autarch - dual Avenger Cats (index entry)
Farseer - Singing Spear

Dire Avengers x10, ShimShield & Glaive
Dire Avengers x10, ShimShield & Glaive
Dire Avengers x10, ShimShield & Glaive

Wave Serpent - Twin A.M.L., Twin Cats, Crystal Targeting Matrix
Wave Serpent - Twin A.M.L., Twin Cats, Crystal Targeting Matrix
Wave Serpent - Twin A.M.L., Twin Cats, Crystal Targeting Matrix
Wave Serpent - Twin A.M.L., Twin Cats, Crystal Targeting Matrix

Battalion #2
Alaitoc
Spiritseer
Spiritseer

Rangers
Rangers
Rangers

Dark Reapers x10, 1 Tempest Launcher

Patrol
Kabal of Black Heart
Archon
Kabalites x5

1972 points. 13 CPs

As is, it has only 9 drops, so going first might happen more often for an ITC GT's missions of 1, 3, & 5. Often going second allows a better game plan on out gaining secondaries (ITC percentages show a slight lead in winning games for those who go 2nd). Not needing to go first so bad, as the Serpents are very resilient, should I spend points on more a mobile farseer and autarch? 20 points for the farseer's bike and 8 points to give the autarch a Warp Gen? Of course the SkyRunner farseer is awesome.

The list will need 2 turns to kill a Castellan or other Imp Knight.

AML versus BL means flexibility, and AM hordes are still high in the meta, pinkies, loads of cultists, etc.

'Tis not as mobile as most elvish lists.

Well, I play a Biel-Tan list as well, but have a different approach:

Farseer Skyrunner
Autarch on jetbike with reaper launcher, laser lance, warlord
2x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardian Defenders
2x5 Fire Dragons
2x5 Dark Reapers
4 or 5 Serpents

This is basically the core. Haven't lost a game in the 8th so far.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Haven't lost a game in the 8th so far.

Wow.

Does that include tournaments? I know you know your stuff Wuestenfux, but 100% !?!? (no sarcasm or derision)

Dire avengers are good but when I run them I typically do 1 unit of 10 vs a unit of 5. Also I do feel while being awesome, they are the current worst troop in our codex

 Brothererekose wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Haven't lost a game in the 8th so far.

Wow.

Does that include tournaments? I know you know your stuff Wuestenfux, but 100% !?!? (no sarcasm or derision)

Well, I played lots of tourneys in the 3rd to 7th edition, but frankly not in the 8th so far.
But all games were against vets in our gaming group. (100% cannot tell anything else, some of my friends show up here sometimes.)

After reading the fine print on Crystal Targeting Matricies, the AMLs are out on the Serpents.

And freeing up a few points, some troop changes with models I own and addition of the flyer (which will have the CTM because it's likely to character snipe or just snuggle up to its primary target anyway).

1985 points. Maybe Spirit Stones for the Serpents? I've been playing Inured to Suffering with DE boats for so long it seems like the best spend of points


Battalion #1
Beil-Tan
Autarch - Reaper Launcher & Warp Gen <- - Why? Because it's a smaller model, sneakier, but still has the same speed, on average, as a winged autarch (index entry)
Farseer - Singing Spear

Storm Guardians x8 (cuz they're cheap! Also, a buddy showed their somewhat, small but surprising potential)
Storm Guardians x8
Guardian Defenders 20

Wave Serpent - Twin Shuriken Cannons, Twin Cats
Wave Serpent - Twin Shuriken Cannons, Twin Cats
Wave Serpent - Twin Shuriken Cannons, Twin Cats
Wave Serpent - Twin Shuriken Cannons, Twin Cats

Battalion #2
Alaitoc
Spiritseer
Spiritseer

Rangers
Rangers
Rangers

Dark Reapers x10, 1 Tempest Launcher
Crimson Hunter Exarch - Crystal Targeting Matrix

Patrol
Kabal of Black Heart
Archon
Kabalites x5

Well, I see that you want CPs.
I'd give the Serpents underslung shuriken cannons and split the DRs into 2 squads of 5.
How do you deal with heavy armor? Just one Crimson Hunter might not be enough.

My approach is slightly different. My Serpents advance slowly shooting the enemy constantly. It is important to bring all weapons to bear.
Each Serpent has nine S6 shots where 1's to hit can be re-rolled. The passengers are let loose at leisure - Fire Dragons, Scorpions, Banshees and what not.

I don't care about Rangers, Spiritseers and the like. They have no place in my army. I go for the enemy's throat.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I see that you want CPs.
I'd give the Serpents underslung shuriken cannons and split the DRs into 2 squads of 5.
How do you deal with heavy armor? Just one Crimson Hunter might not be enough.

I'm still in debate about BLs, AMLs or S6 guns on the serpents. Doom will help bring down the castellans that are still going to be in my meta.

DRs: I plan to keep them as a group of 10 to use one Fire and Fade to save the whole lot of them. Why do you split into 2x5? To get two Tempest Launchers?

If I crunched the numbers correctly, the DRs, 4 Twin AML or BLs on each serpent, and the CHE ought to nearly kill a Castellan. Vect stops the shield rotation strategem. I have used a warlock (SkyR) with Jinx to some success over the last 9 months, but not enough success. I have seen and consulted with some and Spiritseers are better for 10 more points, gaining 2 add'l wounds, at the sacrifice of SkyR speed.

 wuestenfux wrote:
My approach is slightly different. My Serpents advance slowly shooting the enemy constantly. It is important to bring all weapons to bear.
Each Serpent has nine S6 shots where 1's to hit can be re-rolled. The passengers are let loose at leisure - Fire Dragons, Scorpions, Banshees and what not.

Hm. Boats with mid-str guns, 9 shots. ... like the Ravagers I have been running for months? Sounds like a smart move, wielding units in a familiar way. But Serpents are far more resilient, but the guns don't have negative AP and are single wound. But, hey who am I to naysay your success?

I'll think about it. Are you familiar with ITC missions? Troops play big on the part of the often 4 + objective markers, at least for a mediocre player like me. So, yeah, I need CPs (Vect!) otherwise I'd scrap the troops and load up with the fire dragons I own.

Then again, if I put fire dragons in the list, maybe there wouldn't be anything left to shoot them, right?

DRs: I plan to keep them as a group of 10 to use one Fire and Fade to save the whole lot of them. Why do you split into 2x5? To get two Tempest Launchers?

Well, the DRs are at the beginning in a Serpent and embark asap. The enemy is hard pressed to choose targets and he often takes the Serpents as the closest threats. No tempest launchers for my DRs, just the reaper launcher for the Exarch.

Are you familiar with ITC missions?

Sorry but we don't play these missions.

 wuestenfux wrote:

DRs: I plan to keep them as a group of 10 to use one Fire and Fade to save the whole lot of them. Why do you split into 2x5? To get two Tempest Launchers?

Well, the DRs are at the beginning in a Serpent and embark asap. The enemy is hard pressed to choose targets and he often takes the Serpents as the closest threats. No tempest launchers for my DRs, just the reaper launcher for the Exarch.

Are you familiar with ITC missions?

Sorry but we don't play these missions.

Ah your lists are going to differ greatly if you do not play itc vs someone who is building s list to do so. Nonetheless your advice is very good

 wuestenfux wrote:

DRs: I plan to keep them as a group of 10 to use one Fire and Fade to save the whole lot of them. Why do you split into 2x5? To get two Tempest Launchers?

Well, the DRs are at the beginning in a Serpent and embark asap. The enemy is hard pressed to choose targets and he often takes the Serpents as the closest threats. No tempest launchers for my DRs, just the reaper launcher for the Exarch.

6 wounds at T3, armor 3 versus 12 wounds, armor 3, Serpent Tough, and with -1 to multiple wound weapons ...

Then, a 9 wound threat, at AP- versus the DRs' 15 wound potential, at -2 ... dude, any opponent targeting your boats first ain't doin' it right.

I have respected your opinion for years ... since 5e? But if your opponents are going after the serpents instead of the easy kill of 6 infantry wounds (5 Dark Reapers), then I humbly suggest, that your buddies need a sit down and some schooling on target priority.

Cheers, sir, a serious, no sarcasm 'cheers' to playing chumps (and, mind you, *I* am a chump. I make just such mistakes when standing at the table).

All this, though, and I will try to publish one last iteration: The GT I will be attending has a window closing for list submission ... I think, this Friday evening.

Thank you, Wuestenfux. And P4P.

-Casey

I have respected your opinion for years ... since 5e? But if your opponents are going after the serpents instead of the easy kill of 6 infantry wounds (5 Dark Reapers), then I humbly suggest, that your buddies need a sit down and some schooling on target priority.

My Serpents are so close in round 1 that they are hard pressed.
The DRs sit in the back field in cover with one unit fading if necessary.
A 10 men unit is also not ideal if it faces some casualties due to morale issues.

So good luck at the GT!

 wuestenfux wrote:

I have respected your opinion for years ... since 5e? But if your opponents are going after the serpents instead of the easy kill of 6 infantry wounds (5 Dark Reapers), then I humbly suggest, that your buddies need a sit down and some schooling on target priority.

My Serpents are so close in round 1 that they are hard pressed.
The DRs sit in the back field in cover with one unit fading if necessary.
A 10 men unit is also not ideal if it faces some casualties due to morale issues.

So good luck at the GT!

You can`t guide 2 units, so you losing damage input and this list really lack damage to destroy super heavies.
Leaving one squad of DR on the open don`t sound like good idea.

Indeed, the Farseer cannot guide two units, but in the game opening my Autarch on jetbike (with reaper launcher) is also in the back field and the DRs can benefit from Path of the Command.

Fire and Fade only works if you have appropriate terrain.
I've seen the London GT and the terrain was a joke.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Fire and Fade only works if you have appropriate terrain.
I've seen the London GT and the terrain was a joke.

Me, too. So sad.

Check out pictures of the ITC GTs, LVO or Bay Area Open. I'm going to BAO in two weeks and there's going to be terrain exactly suited for Fire and Fade.

Wuestenfux: Your autarch? Does your model actually have a reaper launcher? I dunno as I've actually seen one. I do have the really old, metal, lance wielding, bare headed model. He's still unpainted and in his plastic blister box.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Fire and Fade only works if you have appropriate terrain.
I've seen the London GT and the terrain was a joke.

Me, too. So sad.

Check out pictures of the ITC GTs, LVO or Bay Area Open. I'm going to BAO in two weeks and there's going to be terrain exactly suited for Fire and Fade.

Wuestenfux: Your autarch? Does your model actually have a reaper launcher? I dunno as I've actually seen one. I do have the really old, metal, lance wielding, bare headed model. He's still unpainted and in his plastic blister box.

Well, my Autarch sits on a Vyper which has a regular missile launcher (counts as).
I used this model in a GT and GW hasn't complained about it.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, my Autarch sits on a Vyper which has a regular missile launcher (counts as).
I used this model in a GT and GW hasn't complained about it.

Nice! Got a pic?
The nice thing about the ITC/FLG is that Rule of Cool trumps WYSIWYG. Sounds like an elf astride a vyper fits the bill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brothererekose wrote:
1985 points. Maybe Spirit Stones for the Serpents? I've been playing Inured to Suffering with DE boats for so long it seems like the best spend of points

Battalion #1
Beil-Tan
Autarch - Reaper Launcher & Warp Gen
Farseer - Singing Spear

Storm Guardians x8
Storm Guardians x8
Guardian Defenders 20

x4 Wave Serpent - Twin Shuriken Cannons, Twin Cats

Battalion #2
Alaitoc
x2 Spiritseer

3x5 Rangers

Dark Reapers x10, 1 Tempest Launcher
Crimson Hunter Exarch - Crystal Targeting Matrix

Patrol
Kabal of Black Heart
Archon
Kabalites x5

Or this version:

Autarch Warp Gen, nothing else
Farseer onna bike - Singing Spear

Storm Guardians x8 (cuz they're cheap! Also, a buddy showed their somewhat, small but surprising potential)
Storm Guardians x8
Guardian Defenders 20
x10 Dark Reapers, 1 tempest
Wave Serpent - Twin AML or BL, Twin Cats
Wave Serpent - Twin AML or BL, Twin Cats

Battalion #2
x2 Spiritseer
x3 Rnagers

Battalion #3
x2 Archon
x3 minimum kabs
x3 Ravagers - DisCans & Shock Prows

12 points to spend

Well, sorry no pic available atm.
The new list looks better due to the addition of the Ravager.
Is the 1st battalion Biel-Tan? If so, you could give the Serpents 3 shuriken cannons each.
And I'd take Guardian Defenders instead of Stormies. They could babysit a shuriken cannon each.

A few more tweaks:

Also, ITC players, I didn't see the rule in the ITC seasonal packet/rules, but I can have my relic on the smaller portioned drukhari battalion, yes?

Battalion #1
Beil-Tan
Autarch - Warp Generator, Banshee Mask (index entry) & Reaper Launcher
Farseer SkyRunner - Singing Spear

Guardians x10
Storm Guardians x8 (I'm not ignoring Wes' advice, but there those last few points wouldn't pan out)
Storm Guardians x8

x2 Wave Serpent - Twin Shuriken Cannons and an under-slung Shuriken Cannon

Battlalion #2
Alaitoc
x2 Spiritseer
x3 Rangers
Dark Reapers x10, x1 Tempest

Battalion #3
Kabal of Black Heart
Archon - Huskblade, Writ of the Living Muse
archon - blaster & huskblade
x3 kabs
x3 ravagers, DisCans, Shock prows

1994 points

Maybe the Autarch gets a chainsword or something for those last few