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I tend not to game much over the winter - shops are too far away. So now that it's warmer I'm looking at getting back into the game and it appears that a whole slew of books got released. Did assassins get a whole book for 4 models? I've also seen new strategem cards for special detachments not to mention I missed a chapter-approved. Apparently yet another Chaos book too.

Are there any other rules expansions/alterations I've missed? Are they going to do the same to 40k they did with Killteam by spreading out the rules across multiple books?

Assassin's got a white dwarf

There are detatchments from the vigilus book but you pay cp to take them. Chaos did get a new book at least for space marines

SirWeeble wrote:
I tend not to game much over the winter - shops are too far away. So now that it's warmer I'm looking at getting back into the game and it appears that a whole slew of books got released. Did assassins get a whole book for 4 models? I've also seen new strategem cards for special detachments not to mention I missed a chapter-approved. Apparently yet another Chaos book too.

Are there any other rules expansions/alterations I've missed? Are they going to do the same to 40k they did with Killteam by spreading out the rules across multiple books?

The main ones are CA 18
Vigilus defiant (imperium)
Vigilus ablaze (chaos)
Chaos codex mk 2
Index assassins (march/April 19 white dwarf)
And a lot of FAQs (see the community FAQ page) at the end of April.

the chaos 2.0 codex is more just bringing stuff from shadowspear (a boxed set you missed) and the new vigilus ablze stuff, you can download the shadowspear datacards (for free) and getvigilus ablze and you're more or less good, although I like having the codex anyway makes things easier

Ah ok - not as bad as I thought. Finding out about a bunch of changes at once made it seem like they decided to go codex-crazy and basically require multiple rulebooks in an already rulebook heavy game.

I hope all of this info gets consolidated and put into a reprint of the core rulebook at some point.

SirWeeble wrote:
I hope all of this info gets consolidated and put into a reprint of the core rulebook at some point.

Disclaimer: The above video response is a light-hearted joke at the expense of Games Workshop, who are notorious for their anti-consumer, profit first behaviour.
That would mean less sales of 30p of paper for £50!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

SirWeeble wrote:
I hope all of this info gets consolidated and put into a reprint of the core rulebook at some point.

Disclaimer: The above video response is a light-hearted joke at the expense of Games Workshop, who are notorious for their anti-consumer, profit first behaviour.
That would mean less sales of 30p of paper for £50!

Seems like an appropriate response to me. =)

SirWeeble wrote:
Ah ok - not as bad as I thought. Finding out about a bunch of changes at once made it seem like they decided to go codex-crazy and basically require multiple rulebooks in an already rulebook heavy game.

I hope all of this info gets consolidated and put into a reprint of the core rulebook at some point.

The vast majority of the material released over the last six months consists of optional (unless you're a competitive tournament gamer) expansions. Any changes affecting the core rule book are available for free as far as I'm aware.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

SirWeeble wrote:
Ah ok - not as bad as I thought. Finding out about a bunch of changes at once made it seem like they decided to go codex-crazy and basically require multiple rulebooks in an already rulebook heavy game.

I hope all of this info gets consolidated and put into a reprint of the core rulebook at some point.

The vast majority of the material released over the last six months consists of optional (unless you're a competitive tournament gamer) expansions. Any changes affecting the core rule book are available for free as far as I'm aware.

Chapter Approved isn't free and changes the Matched Play rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Chapter Approved isn't free and changes the Matched Play rules.

It's also not mandatory, unless you need those updates for a tournament. You can play perfectly well with your friends without those changes.

 The Forgemaster wrote:

SirWeeble wrote:
I tend not to game much over the winter - shops are too far away. So now that it's warmer I'm looking at getting back into the game and it appears that a whole slew of books got released. Did assassins get a whole book for 4 models? I've also seen new strategem cards for special detachments not to mention I missed a chapter-approved. Apparently yet another Chaos book too.

Are there any other rules expansions/alterations I've missed? Are they going to do the same to 40k they did with Killteam by spreading out the rules across multiple books?

The main ones are CA 18
Vigilus defiant (imperium)
Vigilus ablaze (chaos)
Chaos codex mk 2
Index assassins (march/April 19 white dwarf)
And a lot of FAQs (see the community FAQ page) at the end of April.

There's also the Ynnari & Crimsons Fists articles in White Dwarf - I want to say January and May respectively, but I don't have the issues to hand.

If I get chance to ask questions at the seminar at UK Games Expo, it may well be how they plan to make such content available once a specific issue is no longer on sale.

SirWeeble wrote:
I hope all of this info gets consolidated and put into a reprint of the core rulebook at some point.

Well, GW didn't and probably won't, but someone on Dakka did:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/770625.page#10325738

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Chapter Approved isn't free and changes the Matched Play rules.

It's also not mandatory, unless you need those updates for a tournament. You can play perfectly well with your friends without those changes.

Which, while true, is irrelevant to the majority of discussion we see here, as most Dakka posters seem to want to keep up with the most recent changes.

I certainly see more lean into so many books being "optional", but that's because it's ridiculous to try to keep up with EVERYTHING.
The problem is that we don't all play with "just your friends" and pick-up games with people you may not know at your LGS is a thing.
The assumption that you and your opponent are using the most up-to-date rules is the most common and most fair assumption.

Yes, you should always have pregame discussions with new opponents (as that is part of the fun of this hobby to get to know new people), but the sheer MASS of content now makes games less streamlined and therefore increase the chance of a bad game.
IMO, this decreases the frequency that players will seek out new opponents or worse; stop playing entirely outside of Tourneys or strictly casual games with known opponents.

This division among the community between "tourney" players and "casual" players is not great for the hobby as a whole. I used to be both, but now I can only do casual games because I cannot keep up with all the rapid-fire changes

-

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Chapter Approved isn't free and changes the Matched Play rules.

It's also not mandatory, unless you need those updates for a tournament. You can play perfectly well with your friends without those changes.

Kind of, but if my local gaming group is anything to go by, gaming groups and stores will use the latest rules. It only costs the same as 3 WDs and it has loads of good content so it's not a huge expenditure once per year. If you don't want to buy it, ask someone who has it if you can read the single page that contains all the matched play rules updates...

CA 18 contains a new set of missions which is a huge improvement over CA 17, which on its own was a huge improvement over Rulebook missions.

Right now there are 3 levels at which you can play this game:

1) Friends only with Power levels. This requires the core rulebook and your codex. Check the FAQs. CA xx are not needed, since power levels do not change.

2) Pick-up game/ semi competitive oriented. This requires the full matched play rules, so you need the rulebook, your codex and the last chapter approved. Check the FAQs. This is the category for the vast majority of players.

3) Competitive oriented. You need everything relative to your faction, so rulebook, codex, CA, supplements like Vigilus Ablaze and white dwarfs. Check the FAQs. Some particularly dedicated folks may also decide to collect everything of the other factions too, so that they know what they are going to face.


So, the initial promise from GW that for 8th you were going to need only the rulebook and the codex, is technically respected just because power levels exist, but the truth is that for the almost totality of players you also require the chapter approved. Fortunately, it is a (relatively) low cost publication.

 Galef wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Chapter Approved isn't free and changes the Matched Play rules.

It's also not mandatory, unless you need those updates for a tournament. You can play perfectly well with your friends without those changes.

Which, while true, is irrelevant to the majority of discussion we see here, as most Dakka posters seem to want to keep up with the most recent changes.

I really wasn't replying to "most Dakka posters" though. I was really only replying to the OP, without making any assumptions as to what kind of player they are. Like I said, unless you're heading to a tournament, you really don't need Chapter Approved. There's no rule in 40k generally, that says you have to adhere to updates you don't own. This kind of requirement comes from either the rules of the specific tournament you're playing in, or - if you're unfortunate - a particularly persnickety gaming group.

On the other hand, even if you are a frequent tournament player, the situation still isn't all that bad. Chapter Approved is a once per year purchase, but the result is that we get annual points cost balances, which is something that the community had been crying out for in previous editions, as well as the new missions, which conscensus seems to really enjoy, so for most people, the benefit largely far out weighs the cost.

I also don't get this phenomenon of people complaining that they can't keep up with everything Games Workshop is releasing, as if they have some entitlement to possess everything in the catalogue. Nowhere do you have the right to demand that Games Workshop slow down and stop releasing stuff until your salary catches up. Not being able to afford everything you want is a fundamentally unavoidable part of life.

For me the frustration is that at the beginning of 8th GW said that they would walk back the stack of books, downloads and FAQs you needed to play even one army let alone allies. At first it looked like that would be the case, between the indexes and then a quick solid codex release.

Then came CA split from from FAQs to make another pay wall to have up to date rules. The fact that the two are separate is beyond annoying and arbitrary. Then we reintroduce supplements and campaign books.

The final most annoying sin is that GW decided leave a lot of options and entire models as index only. This means a minimum of two books for anyone who didn't start in 40k a year ago to use certain models.

That's putting aside their decision to not pull FW into the codexes and the new mini releases they have been up on lately.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Like I said, unless you're heading to a tournament, you really don't need Chapter Approved. There's no rule in 40k generally, that says you have to adhere to updates you don't own. This kind of requirement comes from either the rules of the specific tournament you're playing in, or - if you're unfortunate - a particularly persnickety gaming group.

I'm not sure that's the case. How many stores and gaming groups ignore the latest matched play rules and points updates in CA? Of course you can choose not to buy it, but unless you're playing at home I think you'll be playing by the latest rules whether you own them or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:
If I get chance to ask questions at the seminar at UK Games Expo, it may well be how they plan to make such content available once a specific issue is no longer on sale.

I'd be interested to know that too.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Chapter Approved isn't free and changes the Matched Play rules.

It's also not mandatory, unless you need those updates for a tournament. You can play perfectly well with your friends without those changes.

Which, while true, is irrelevant to the majority of discussion we see here, as most Dakka posters seem to want to keep up with the most recent changes.

I really wasn't replying to "most Dakka posters" though. I was really only replying to the OP, without making any assumptions as to what kind of player they are. Like I said, unless you're heading to a tournament, you really don't need Chapter Approved. There's no rule in 40k generally, that says you have to adhere to updates you don't own. This kind of requirement comes from either the rules of the specific tournament you're playing in, or - if you're unfortunate - a particularly persnickety gaming group.

On the other hand, even if you are a frequent tournament player, the situation still isn't all that bad. Chapter Approved is a once per year purchase, but the result is that we get annual points cost balances, which is something that the community had been crying out for in previous editions, as well as the new missions, which conscensus seems to really enjoy, so for most people, the benefit largely far out weighs the cost.

I also don't get this phenomenon of people complaining that they can't keep up with everything Games Workshop is releasing, as if they have some entitlement to possess everything in the catalogue. Nowhere do you have the right to demand that Games Workshop slow down and stop releasing stuff until your salary catches up. Not being able to afford everything you want is a fundamentally unavoidable part of life.

This is a great post that really nails it imo. So much whining about optional ADDITIONS, it's great that GW is catering to those who want it.

Saying these books are Optional is about the most baseless statement I can imagine. Yes keeping up with current rules is always optional. Moving to a new edition is optional as well. We all do it to a large degree, why is that ? Oh it's because it's human nature to keep up so we all have the same playing field and even groups of friends don't all agree to just not change with time.

These new optional things are only as optional as wanting to win a game or keep up with the game in general. As more and more of these drop, it will become less and less optional. The whie dwarf assassin rules being a symbol of that, I didn't get it around here and now I went from being able to use my models to not, off a splash release. The more main codex++ these books drop as, the less optional they will feel if one person keeps up, but the others do not or can not.

So yeah, these new books are as optional as playing the game in general is an option. Little we do in life is mandatory, however lets not live in denial they really aren't an option unless you want to just not play the game and somehow can get all your friends to stay in the same game state as you.

Pretty much any list I see used around is using these optional, better rules from these books. Doesn't feel very optional to me. The rules bloat is real and only growing more so each book release.

You're army got no weaker if you skip Vigilus detachments. It's absolutely optional. You don't need Chapter Approved to play updated points costs - in fact if you try to do play the old costs, someone's going to pull you up on it. These books are optional. It's completely different to "moving to a new edition", you can't play a 7th ed codex with everybody playing 8th, that's not at all optional. Having the newest ADDITIONAL formations added to your army, IS optional, and it's just absurd to argue otherwise because you WANT it, it's still very optional, and as it stands, barely makes a difference at all if you don't.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You're army got no weaker if you skip Vigilus detachments. It's absolutely optional. You don't need Chapter Approved to play updated points costs - in fact if you try to do play the old costs, someone's going to pull you up on it. These books are optional. It's completely different to "moving to a new edition", you can't play a 7th ed codex with everybody playing 8th, that's not at all optional. Having the newest ADDITIONAL formations added to your army, IS optional, and it's just absurd to argue otherwise because you WANT it, it's still very optional, and as it stands, barely makes a difference at all if you don't.

I think your messaging got a little mixed there, Shuppet - did you mean to say that CA isn't really an optional purchase, due to the updated points costs, while the likes of the Vigilus books (which add additional material, but don't rework existing elements) are optional?

I meant to, and correctly did, say both were optional. Only in anime does your casual opponent turn around and laugh in your face and demand you use the old points values that everyone has forgotten and nobody plays by, because you didn't bring CA. As for tournaments, you have to verify for your list for submission and CA is borderline useless beyond that point anyway, unlike the dexes and rules that you actually need.


I did use the wrong "you're/your" though. :(

 SHUPPET wrote:
You're army got no weaker if you skip Vigilus detachments. It's absolutely optional. You don't need Chapter Approved to play updated points costs - in fact if you try to do play the old costs, someone's going to pull you up on it. These books are optional. It's completely different to "moving to a new edition", you can't play a 7th ed codex with everybody playing 8th, that's not at all optional. Having the newest ADDITIONAL formations added to your army, IS optional, and it's just absurd to argue otherwise because you WANT it, it's still very optional, and as it stands, barely makes a difference at all if you don't.

I still argue, what you're saying is false. Yes, it's optional in the sense that if you want to be army -1, you can avoid this detachments which some are used a lot, actually very good and really do add a good punch to lists. Yes, you can ignore them, but in any play area in which you throw down you're actively weakening yourself to not keep up to date. If the formations and new detachments weren't +1 options and just differences I may agree with you, that isn't true however. If they were lateral changes and not just upgrades, they wouldn't even get much talk, I doubt we'd even hear about them really.

They are exactly needed, if you want an even playing field. Granted some additions are better than others. I get you want to say they are optional, I think only in the loosest sense, especially if others do use them around you. I point out as well the power creep in them will only grow. I hazard to say people say 7th edition formations were optional as well, yet again, they weren't really, not if you wanted to actually have a chance. I mean you can say a car only needs the bare minimum of parts to run, but you very much would like to have heat, AC, sound system, comfy seats, those are all optional though. So sure your codex is and main rules and costs are all that is needed, the options that will keep flowing from these detachments will keep being less and less optional feeling as they add so much to a list in a time and GW will be sure of that.

Heck my biggest gripe isn't even the cost, it's the clutter. It's needing so many books, again, for so little actual rules information. It's them saying " We don't want rules bloat " and our rules are looking each new release like a huge great unclean one, bloated as can be and getting larger by the day till he smooshes us all in his massive chuckle filled girth.

That's exactly the same as saying 3 codexes isn't optional because soup is strong, or even that playing Knights isn't optional because they are doing the best. It's absurdity, you're rewriting the meaning of the word to "anything you want to be the strongest is mandatory". Optional updates and additions are just that. These things are NOT mandatory to play no matter how you slice it and the majority of people are happy with the extra depth they add.

Brother Castor wrote:How many stores and gaming groups ignore the latest matched play rules and points updates in CA?

In my experience, all of them outside of tournaments, and for tournaments, my FLGS has a store copy for players to use freely.

AngryAngel80 wrote:Saying these books are Optional is about the most baseless statement I can imagine.

That's not true. My statement was based on the entirety of my experience with 8th edition.

AngryAngel80 wrote:Yes keeping up with current rules is always optional. Moving to a new edition is optional as well.

I have to take issue with this sentiment. Though, yes, it is factually correct to say that moving to a new addition is optional, one is not likely to have very many people to play with. The point I'm trying to make is that this is not true for expansions. Despite owning only the rule book and my codex, I have never, ever had even minor difficulty finding a game at either store I have played at. Everyone I know who plays 40k, loves to play 40k, and they rarely look for a reason not to play a game. The one person I play with who expressed interest in the missions from Vigilus 2, did so because he bought the book and he want's to use it, so we will both use that book together.

AngryAngel80 wrote:The whie dwarf assassin rules being a symbol of that, I didn't get it around here and now I went from being able to use my models to not, off a splash release.

What? Why? Did White Dwarf somehow invalidate the Index?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Brother Castor wrote:How many stores and gaming groups ignore the latest matched play rules and points updates in CA?

In my experience, all of them outside tournaments

So nobody in your area, either at your local GW or gaming group plays using the latest Psychic Focus, Strategic Discipline, Tactical Reserves, Battle Brothers, Boots on the Ground, Limits of Command, Strategic Discipline, Targeting Characters or Understrength Support rules, or the latest balanced points for standard matched play games?

EDIT: I've just realised your in Vietnam. I guess it's a bit different over there then!

 Ginjitzu wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:The whie dwarf assassin rules being a symbol of that, I didn't get it around here and now I went from being able to use my models to not, off a splash release.

What? Why? Did White Dwarf somehow invalidate the Index?

Once a new datasheet is released for a unit the old one is invalidated (except any missing wargear options). Not ideal if it was replaced in WD and you didn't buy it...

Brother Castor has the right of it, once the rules dropped in WD they did invalidate the old rules as they become the defacto rules for the assassins so people are SOL until they actually get free released or printed in a book.

Hell people on this very site said unless they had the hard copy even if they could find the digital version the rules would suspect as they could be altered. Granted assassins are a small example but there is nothing small of how much it cost to buy those models in the first place to now not be able to field them.

What depth do these " Optional " updates add aside from increased power exactly ? As I said these aren't lateral changes they are directly strength increases and unless I missed a memo that said people like playing the same army as someone else just with less options and less power, most people won't view them as optional buys for that exact reason.

 Brother Castor wrote:
So nobody in your area, either at your local GW or gaming group plays using the latest Psychic Focus, Strategic Discipline, Tactical Reserves, Battle Brothers, Boots on the Ground, Limits of Command, Strategic Discipline, Targeting Characters or Understrength Support rules, or the latest balanced points for standard matched play games?

Hmm. Those rules all come from Chapter Approved? If that's the case, I owe you an apology. I've actually been using most of those rules in my games despite never having opened a copy of Chapter Approved in my life. I actually thought those rules came from FAQ updates because the other gamers in my group have been sharing them in our Facebook group. Perhaps I've been relying on the generosity of my peers more than I realized.

Brother Castor wrote:EDIT: I've just realised your in Vietnam. I guess it's a bit different over there then!

While it's true that intellectual property is largely a meaningless concept here in Vietnam, I had much the same experience back in Ireland.

Though it seems the spirit of the first part of my comment - "you don't really need access to Chapter Approved to keep playing with your local group" - was wrong, I still maintain that having Chapter Approved and having to buy it, is still better than the alternative: having no balancing adjustments at all. And while of course, the ideal scenario would be for Games Workshop to give us these updates for free, it's hardly a terrible thing for you to get a couple of gaming buddies to scratch together the cost of the book and share it (physically of course ) as a group resource.

Brother Castor wrote:Once a new datasheet is released for a unit the old one is invalidated (except any missing wargear options).

Wasn't that just the case for Codices? I don't recall ever heard anything about White Dwarf being able to invalidate rules.

A lot of the matched play rules updates did originate as beta rules in big FAQs (and I think some were finalised too), but the latest CA is always the definitive location for them. As I said previously, you don't need CA, but I think you will be playing using the rules unless you only play at home.

As for WD invalidating rules - I think it's the case that new datasheets wherever they're published invalidate old ones. These are new indexes being published in WD. We're yet to see how GW are going to make them available after WD is OOP.