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Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





If I was to have a Custodes Army with a vangaurd detatchment of sisters of silence including a primaris psyker as an HQ
What stratagems would I have access too ? Would they be able to use Astra Militarum Strategems ?

What makes a detatchment an "astra militarum" detatchment ?

What rules should each detatchment be following ? do the sisters of silence get any other rules from the Astra Militarum codex ? or anything else I may be missing ?

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





You cannot have a Primaris Psyker in the same detachment as Sisters of Silence, as the only keyword they share is IMPERIUM and that is not allowed as per the Battle Brothers rule.


A detachment is an Astra Militarum detachment if every unit in it has the ASTRA MILITARUM keyword.

Due to both of the above, Sisters of Silence can never get rules from the Astra Militarum codex.

You can put the Primaris Psyker in an Auxiliary Support detachment and that will be an Astra Militarum detachment.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Detachments are determined by keywords, not which index/codex the data sheet is located.

Sisters of Silence and Primaris psykers have 2 keywords in common: “IMPERIUM” and “ASTRA TELEPATHICA”. So you have an ASTRA TELEPATHICA detachment. Not Astra Militarum, so it can’t get any rules for that detachment type.

As such they would only get access to any traits, relics, strategems etc for Astra Telepathica. IIRC there are no special rules for an Astra Telepathica detachment, please correct me if I’m wrong. If there are no such rules, don’t get access to other rules instead.
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Stux wrote:
You cannot have a Primaris Psyker in the same detachment as Sisters of Silence, as the only keyword they share is IMPERIUM and that is not allowed as per the Battle Brothers rule.


A detachment is an Astra Militarum detachment if every unit in it has the ASTRA MILITARUM keyword.

Due to both of the above, Sisters of Silence can never get rules from the Astra Militarum codex.

You can put the Primaris Psyker in an Auxiliary Support detachment and that will be an Astra Militarum detachment.


You cannot have a Primaris Psyker in the same detachment as Sisters of Silence, as the only keyword they share is IMPERIUM and that is not allowed as per the Battle Brothers rule.


This is untrue,

All Sisters of Silence have the ASTRA TELEPATHICA Keyword,
The Primaris Psyker has the ASTRA TELEPATHICA Keyword

Therefor, the Sisters of Silence may have a Primaris Psyker as an HQ in a vangaurd detatchment as per the Battle Brothers rule.

But I guess this means they would be an "Astra Telepathica" detatchment and niether a "Sisters of Silence" or "Astra Militarum" detatchment ?

does the "Astra Telepathica" or "Sisters of Silence" have access to any Stratagems on their own ?


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Ah I missed the ASTRA TELEPATHICA keyword.

So yes, you can put them together. But it is not an Astra Militarum detachment, so you don't unlock anything.

If you had a separate Astra Militarum detachment and unlocked stratagem, you would be able to use them targeting the Primaris Psyker as it has the right keyword, but not the Sisters of Silence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No, they have no Stratagems etc of their own. This is the case for many Index only sub factions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 08:40:10


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





Awesome thanks for the clarification guys

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Note that some AM psychic powers dont work on sisters or custodes because they arent ASTRA MILITARUM.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 08:44:21


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





 p5freak wrote:
Note that some AM psychic powers dont work on sisters or custodes because they arent ASTRA MILITARUM.


Noted and accounted for


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mainly, this is a 40pt way of still geting 1 CP for the detatchment whilts also getting at least one psyker in the list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 08:48:33


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 p5freak wrote:
Note that some AM psychic powers dont work on sisters or custodes because they arent ASTRA MILITARUM.
And also because no psychic powers of any kind work on the sisters :p
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





However, the offensive powers will work,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickly related to the Datasheets.
i will have to use the Astra Militarum codex sheet and not the Index sheet due to the existence of the sheet in the Militarum Codex (i.e. 6 more points)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 08:56:30


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Aash wrote:
Detachments are determined by keywords, not which index/codex the data sheet is located.

Sisters of Silence and Primaris psykers have 2 keywords in common: “IMPERIUM” and “ASTRA TELEPATHICA”. So you have an ASTRA TELEPATHICA detachment. Not Astra Militarum, so it can’t get any rules for that detachment type.

As such they would only get access to any traits, relics, strategems etc for Astra Telepathica. IIRC there are no special rules for an Astra Telepathica detachment, please correct me if I’m wrong. If there are no such rules, don’t get access to other rules instead.


There are not special rules but due to brilliance of GW Wording

Chapter approved altered the points of units in the astra militarum codex.

It didnt alter points of astra telepathica units

Therefore the points of an astra telepathica detatchment useing the latest astra telepathica rules (index 2) have different points to those standardly used by guard but are limited to only the 3 index powers.

You can take the astra militarum primaris psyker and gain access to all 6 but then have to use the AM pts

This is huge on the astropath

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 09:43:01


 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Type40 wrote:
However, the offensive powers will work,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickly related to the Datasheets.
i will have to use the Astra Militarum codex sheet and not the Index sheet due to the existence of the sheet in the Militarum Codex (i.e. 6 more points)


You will have to use the most recent datasheet yes.

Though note that points are independent of Datasheets (not that it makes a difference in this instance).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
Aash wrote:
Detachments are determined by keywords, not which index/codex the data sheet is located.

Sisters of Silence and Primaris psykers have 2 keywords in common: “IMPERIUM” and “ASTRA TELEPATHICA”. So you have an ASTRA TELEPATHICA detachment. Not Astra Militarum, so it can’t get any rules for that detachment type.

As such they would only get access to any traits, relics, strategems etc for Astra Telepathica. IIRC there are no special rules for an Astra Telepathica detachment, please correct me if I’m wrong. If there are no such rules, don’t get access to other rules instead.


There are not special rules but due to brilliance of GW Wording

Chapter approved altered the points of units in the astra militarum codex.

It didnt alter points of astra telepathica units

Therefore the points of an astra telepathica detatchment useing the latest astra telepathica rules (index 2) have different points to those standardly used by guard but are limited to only the 3 index powers.

You can take the astra militarum primaris psyker and gain access to all 6 but then have to use the AM pts

This is huge on the astropath


You can't use the Primaris Psyker datasheet from the Index though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 09:43:25


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

The most revent datasheet for the astra telepathica primaris psyker is index imperium 2

The most recent datasheet for the astra militarum primaris psyker is codex astra militarum (although it has the astra telepathica keyword).

The astro telepathica faction has not been updated so you can use it in a astro telepathica detatchment. You are only obligated to replace the datasheet in astra militarum detatchment.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 10:01:50


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





U02dah4 wrote:
The most revent datasheet for the astra telepathica primaris psyker is index imperium 2

The most recent datasheet for the astra militarum primaris psyker is codex astra militarum (although it has the astra telepathica keyword).

The astro telepathica faction has not been updated so you can use it in a astro telepathica detatchment You are only obligated to replace the datashet in astra militarum detatchment.


The FAQ says Codex always trumps Index, or am I missing something

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Their is no astra telepathica codex

There is an astro telepathica index section

Since their is no codex you use index

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 10:05:01


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





Doesn't that mean, even if you are playing an Astra Telepathica only list, you MUST take the data sheet from the Astra Militarum codex , because codex trumps index ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the FAQ doesn't say anything about a figuring out what data sheet to use for Keywords, it only talks about what data sheet to use for "models"

The model is a Primarys Psyker,
Then it says "does this model apear in a codex" if "YES" then use codex datasheet.

What am I missing ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of
which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you
should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear

DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A
DATASHEET IN A CODEX?" > YES > USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR
MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN
CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR
ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF
THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX,
THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seems like I should use the data sheet from the codex ? unless I am missing something ?

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 10:09:00


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

It means that those datasheets and pts values unless they are updated are the latest rules for astra telepathica.


However you may include units that have the correct keywords in subsequent publications.

E.G. Admech can use secutarii hoplites or astra militarum may take the crusaders datasheet from the sisters of battle codex. However it may also take the current datasheet in Codex AM. Or the two snipers from blackstone fortress.


As to flowchart does your model have a datasheet in a codex

Astra militarum primaris psyker - yes - continue on flowchart
Asta telepthica primaris psyker - No their is no codex - so use the index version of the datasheet

Different codexs can have the same datasheet e.g. BA SM updateing one does not update them all. A BA Smash Captain/tactical squad is not a SM smash captain tactical squad

An astra militarum primaris psyker is not an astra telepathica primaris psyker

Hower later publications may add units to both eg codex vanguard space marines added eliminators to both BA and SM

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 10:19:33


 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Disagree. They are the same unit. This isn't the same as say Rhinos being in multiple Codexes - as they have different keywords. These are literally the same unit, so you must use the Codex.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

You are of course welcolm to disagree however if you create a battlescribe astra telepathica detatchment you will find it gives you access to the index datasheets and points for the reasons above.

Also the SoB crusaders and AM crusaders also have the same keywords and name but very different datasheets

Presently both are legal (if you use the beta codex).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 10:33:51


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





U02dah4 wrote:
You are of course welcolm to disagree however if you create a battlescribe astra telepathica detatchment you will find it gives you access to the index datasheets and points.


Can you point to anywhere it is described like that.
I understand multiple armies having several codex with multiple entries for things like a Rhino.. however an index is NOT a codex.

The FAQ is quite clear.

DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A
DATASHEET IN A CODEX?

Not, does your model have a previous Datasheet.

The only reason for the flow charts existence is to explain that Codex trumps Index

Unless you have something that says otherwise that I have missed ?

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

But their is ... NO...... Codex astro telepathica

Does the astra telepathica primaria psyker have a codex

No

Use the index it is clear



What you are saying is that a datasheet in one codex would overwrite all relevant factions datasheets reguardless of faction.

Therefore a faction without a codex but with access to a rhino would use the SM datasheet and pts because the model has a datasheet in a codex.

Most people will recognise that their can be differences in points and small elements of datasheet even with the same name/keywords between factions.

E.g. admech servitors have canticles but in every other way are identical to SM servitors

Updateing a datasheet in one doesnt then cascade to all.

Equally pts can be different for the same weapon in different faction e.g. plasma guns.

Therefore when the flowchart asks does your model have a datasheet it is implied that this is faction specific.

Astra telepathica has its own faction section in the index it has its own points it has not been given a codex to overwrite it, it has not been faqd to overwrite it, and it hasnt received pts changes in CA. Index is thefefore the latest.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 10:59:39


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





U02dah4 wrote:
But their is ... NO...... Codex astro telepathica

Does the astra telepathica primaria psyker have a codex

No

Use the index it is clear



What you are saying is that a datasheet in one codex would overwrite all relevant factions datasheets reguardless of faction.

Therefore a faction without a codex but with access to a rhino would use the SM datasheet and pts because the model has a datasheet in a codex.

Most people will recognise that their can be differences in points and small elements of datasheet even with the same name/keywords between factions.

E.g. admech servitors have canticles but in every other way are identical to SM servitors

Updateing a datasheet in one doesnt then cascade to all.

Equally pts can be different for the same weapon in different faction e.g. plasma guns.

Therefore when the flowchart asks does your model have a datasheet it is implied that this is faction specific.

Astra telepathica has its own faction section in the index it has its own points it has not been given a codex to overwrite it, it has not been faqd to overwrite it, and it hasnt received pts changes in CA. Index is thefefore the latest.


are you suggesting that any Astra Militarum player can just save 6 points by taking the version from the index and have their only limitation be the amount of powers to choose from.

Codex, trumps Index, admech, astra militarum and SM all have a codex, therefor, all options are available. Not to mention each one has different keywords, meaning different Datasheets.
But an index is not a codex.

And yes, thats exactly what I am saying,,, what index faction currently has access to a "rhino" that hasn't been superseded and been made obsolete by their own codex? That example makes no sense there arn't any factions in the index that use a "rhino"

I am pretty sure the FAQ is quite clear that the index primaris psyker has been replaced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
no where in RAW that I can see does it say anything about a datasheet needing to be part of a codex, or even that you take on the name of the codex to datasheet... that is just inference. It says datasheets are replaced by datasheets in a codex... thats it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 11:18:32


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

No and yes

If you have a seperate astra telepathica detatchment for your primaris then yes you may use the index datasheets and save pts. flow chart wise does my model have a codex no therefore use index


If you are putting your primaris in an astra militarum detatchment there is an astra militarum codex so you follow the flow chart -does my model have a codex yes you then use the astra militarum points



Sisters of silence/sisters of battle (if your not allowing beta rules) have access to a rhino if i remember correctly


If the FAQ makes a snowflake ruling feel free to quote it

If not your reduced to saying that the flowchart ignores faction and any codex updates all models of that type.
Ignoreung the problem of just which varient of the datasheet you use when multiple codexs have a datasheet e.g crusaders/rhinos

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 11:32:30


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





U02dah4 wrote:
No and yes

If you have a seperate astra telepathica detatchment for your primaris then yes you may use the index datasheets and save pts. flow chart wise does my model have a codex no therefore use index


If you are putting your primaris in an astra militarum detatchment there is an astra militarum codex so you follow the flow chart -does my model have a codex yes you then use the astra militarum points

Sisters of battle have access to a rhino if i remember correctly


Can you provide a reference for this,,,, because that's not what the rules say,,, for either of your points.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Yes it called the designers flow chart

Q1 does your model have a data sheet in a codex

For Astra militarum Answer =yes Are their wargear options for your model that only appear in the index version of the data sheet. Answer=no use the codex version of the datasheet


For Astro telepathica Answer =no use the the index version of the models datasheet


Then proceed to the next steps its quite specific

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 11:39:42


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





That's not what the designers flow chart says ? seriously ? references ?

This conversation is off topic, I am going to create a new thread.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Its on topic as you need to know which pts your useing to answer the original question

Also wrote flowchart out with respect to the above

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 11:42:08


 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





What flow chart are you talking about ?

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Warhammer 40k rulebook faq bottom page
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut





The one that says

"models with a datasheet in a codex are replaced by models that have a datasheet in a codex ? "

I am pretty sure it says models not some extra thing about models being a completely different model just because it appears in more then one place ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The last time I checked the model I bought is the same model no mater what abstract rule I apply to the physical object I got in a box.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 11:58:24


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
 
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