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Hi everyone,

So far I've gotten my 1000 points of Imperial Guard assembled, and I've had several games with them, only to realize, I'm not doing too well. It might just be because I'm not used to the style (after playing marines, then synapse heavy 'nids, and then genestealer/godzilla, the idea of bad LD is kind of a shock), and I really kind of want to turn them into a viable tournament army that I can reliably win with.

Over the next year or so, I plan to take the army from 1000 points to 1850, but would like some thoughts on how to get there, before I make any more purchases.

For reference, this is what my current 1000pt army list looks like:

HQ-
Command Platoon (HQ) @ 135 Pts
     4 Command Squad @ [45] Pts
          Lasguns (x4); Iron Discipline
          1 Junior Officer
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

     6 Fire Support Squad #1 @ [90] Pts
          Heavy Bolter (x3); Lasguns; Light Infantry


Troops-
Infantry Platoon (Troops) @ 300 Pts
     4 Command Squad @ [90] Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns (x2); Plasma Gun (x1); Iron Discipline; Light Infantry
          1 Junior Officer
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

     9 Infantry Squad @ [105] Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Light Infantry
          1 Sergeant
               Lasgun

     9 Infantry Squad @ [105] Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Light Infantry

          1 Sergeant
               Lasgun

0 Infantry Platoon (Troops) @ 300 Pts
     4 Command Squad @ [90] Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns (x2); Plasma Gun (x1); Iron Discipline; Light Infantry
          1 Junior Officer
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

     9 Infantry Squad @ [105] Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Light Infantry
          1 Sergeant
               Lasgun

     9 Infantry Squad @ [105] Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Light Infantry
          1 Sergeant
               Lasgun

Heavy Support-
1 Basilisk (Heavy Support) @ 125 Pts
     Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (Heavy Support) @ 145 Pts
     Battle Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

After playing my games, I've realized that Light Infantry isn't a huge advantage, and in some cases, is a disadvantage (opponents become over paranoid and castle up when they find out most of my army infiltrates, making it even harder for me to break them)

The most obvious change at 1850 would be a second leman russ, but I was also thinking of taking 2 or 3 hellhounds.

I'd like to include the following, but I am OK with leaving out: Stormtroopers with plasma, Enginseer, Hardened Vets with meltas. I also have 3x heavy weapon teams that I will be giving heavy bolters, so maybe a second fire support squad to help deal with hordes.

Stuff I'd be perfectly fine dropping: Light Infantry, heavy/special weapons from command squads, and putting them in additional infantry squads.

What I'd like to avoid: Mechanized, Drop army (fine for acouple units, but don't want an entire army of drop troops)

Why the Enginseer: I love the model, and had a crazy idea of taking him with 4x tech servitors, and the honorifica to run behind a castle of 3x hellhounds + 1 or 2 russes. Purely theoryhammer and probably would NOT be a good idea for a tounament style army, but I can always hope eh *note: latest codex says servitors don't count towards wargear limit, and AFAIK, the local gaming organizer is following that instead of the older FAQ.

If it helps atall, my local gaming area has a very wide range of armies.. we have:

5-6 Marine armies
5-6 CSM armies (inc. 9 oblit IW)
5-6 IG armies (atleast 3 active armoured companies)
4-5 tyranid armies
3-4  Eldar armies
3-4 tau armies (mostly mech)
2-3 Ork armies
1-2 Dark Eldar armies (one mix, one wych cult)
1-2 Grey Knight armies
1-2 SoB armies

So as you can see, it is hard to tailor my army to fight the "majority" army, because in a tournament, there is a HUGE mix of styles. Is it even possible to make a viable IG tournament army that can compete with some of these other armies?

"I'd like to include the following, but I am OK with leaving out: Stormtroopers with plasma, Enginseer, Hardened Vets with meltas. I also have 3x heavy weapon teams that I will be giving heavy bolters, so maybe a second fire support squad to help deal with hordes."

i'd say yes to the Vets. and if you include an =I= with 3 HB servitors, they're cheaper than the HB fire support squads.

Gabe,

Making a viable 1850 IG Tournament army is deffinitely possible!  Several comments come to mind after viewing your list.  It seems most prudent to start with general wisdom about the IG and then work into the details and specifics. So, some general points about IG:

******************

ALWAYS PLAY A FLAG IN THE HQ, read the flag rules, rerolls for all IG on morale (with limits) is the best points possible to spend in the list.

The biggest IG weakness is Close Combat, followed quickly by morale!

Never take one of anything in an IG army, nothing they have is hard enough to survive alone, or capable enough to ensure the job gets done if they survive. Anticipate casualties, men will die.

IG Never need more than 2 troops choices, and generally never more than 1 platoon (as they are expandable), investigate conscripts and armored fists as troop choices instead of 2 platoons to save points.

Generally play lots of vehicles or not any, forcing an enemy to split their fire amongst several armored targets is the best way to get the most out of vehicles, playing just 1 vehicle target will almost ensure it's destruction at any points level. Decide if you want to run lots of vehicles or not.

If you are going to play indirect artillery, always play 2 or more.

The only efficient IG CC unit is roughriders, they are also the only effective counter charge unit.  They represent a mandatory choice.

Plasma is not worth it at 10 points ea, don't even bother, save the points to get more of something. Las Plas is a Marine thing.

If you have the slot vacancies in a doctrine list always go for Drop Troopers, and Close Order Drill because they are free and give you more abilities and options. (What are your 5 doctrines?)

All the IG Elite choices are foolish except for veterans, veterans have the SOLE ability to play the hidden powerglove in the entire list (short of allies), they may be worth taking for that alone.  This makes allies a very attractive choice for IG armies as they have such poor elites.

An IG Army should contain at least 10 Las Cannons (at 1850 or more). 1 Heavy support platoon can field that alone. I always play 13-20.

Some things are so bad in the IG list they are not worth owning/taking/painting/playing (except for fun and modelers), Priests, Commisars, Ogryn, Vox, Master Vox, Enginseers, Any IC with CC weapons, Psykers and Improved Comms.

******************

The specific issues with your list (recognizing that it is only 1000). In short, no flag, no CC unit, no counter charge unit, plasma weapons, 2 platoons, and only 1 of each tank.

Gabe> ...the idea of bad LD is kind of a shock

Welcome to the Guard Son.  Investigate the Abhuman Afrial Strain doctrine, it's in a Chapter Aproved WD.  If you think Iron Discipline is good, you will really like Afriel strain.

Gabe> After playing my games, I've realized that Light Infantry isn't a huge advantage, and in some cases, is a disadvantage (opponents become over paranoid and castle up when they find out most of my army infiltrates, making it even harder for me to break them)

What kind of missions do you play?  Assuming you play 1/3 escalations and standard missions LI is a monstrous advantage, play better.  If your opponents try to castle your artillery should be slaying them as they pack up to hide behind vehicles or in a power flank maneuver.

Gabe> The most obvious change at 1850 would be a second leman russ, but I was also thinking of taking 2 or 3 hellhounds.

Leman Russ are ok, Direct fire ordinance tanks have a tough time making their points back because of the template placement rules. A Leman Russ is NO MATCH for a Las Plas Squad deployed at 2" intervals.  I actually don't even own a Leman russ, and I have been playing IG competatively for the duration of the current codex. 

Hellhounds are potentially amazing things, their armor is better, but they have a critical flaw, they take the FA slot that the roughriders will need, so once again, probably not. Versus light opponents they are superb, vs heavy ones, not so much.  A suggestion, change a troop platoon out for a fist squad and play a chimera with 2 heavy flamers, it's almost as good as the hellhounds, at about 75% cost and doesn't take an FA slot.

Gabe> I'd like to include the following, but I am OK with leaving out: Stormtroopers with plasma, Enginseer, Hardened Vets with meltas. I also have 3x heavy weapon teams that I will be giving heavy bolters, so maybe a second fire support squad to help deal with hordes.

Unfortunately everything there is probably a bad idea, Stormtroopers are overpriced, (compare the statline, gear and cost to a Sister of battle sometime) plasma is a big waste, Hardened veterans with Melta will have to infiltrate close, leaving your opponents with a juicy leap frog assault into your gunline. If you are going to take more weapon teams take some Anti Tank ones. 80% or more of the work destroying a MEq army is done by the lascannons and ordinance in an IG army, the rest of the weapons are statistically nearly irrelevant.

Hope this helps, good luck Gabe.

I would like to agree with almost everything Agustus said, with only one exception

1)Plasma, yes you will kill yourself but no other special weapon in guard codex gives you as much bang. You need plasma, you need plasma, you need plasma. If that guardsman drops one marine all game he made his points back. DO not even get me started on skimmers, or any other armored target. I would take the risk vs av 12 and lower. Many a time my lascannon missed a dread that was then destroyed by the squads plasma gun. Also do the math for a deepstriking vet squad with 4 bs4 plasma guns vs a squad of termies. So sweet

I have to concede that BS4 makes a big difference with plasma weapons, the veteran squad with them is a great.  

Infiltrating in the right situation with a surveyor is equally effective.  Generally, at BS3 I don't advocate them, but it is a good point foil brings up.

Good luck!

I'd just like to add a few thoughts, most bases have already been covered -

Morale - if you are worried about low leadership, do not take a JO, take an HSO. Ld 9 in your centre isn't bad at all.

IG Never need more than 2 troops choices, and generally never more than 1 platoon (as they are expandable), investigate conscripts and armored fists as troop choices instead of 2 platoons to save points.

Hmm..I'm no big fan of conscripts. While they're cheap, they're worse than even regular guardsmen. I often employ 2-3 troop choices, with good success if I may say so. I guess it's more of a 'if it works for you' thing.

The only efficient IG CC unit is roughriders, they are also the only effective counter charge unit.  They represent a mandatory choice.

Again I beg to differ somewhat. *Every* IG unit can be an effective counter-assaulter - it all depends on how many enemy of what type reach your lines. Two stealers or Blood Claws assaulting a line squad in cover? No problem. Couple hormies charging your vets? C'mon!

All the IG Elite choices are foolish except for veterans,

Again, this might be a bit harsh. Ratlings aren't too bad for their points, granted, they're no T6, 2+ Sv multiwound-powerweap-wielding lunatics but still. Stormies carapace is indeed offset by the plethora of AP 4 guns out there but still.

An IG Army should contain at least 10 Las Cannons ...

Some things are so bad in the IG list they are not worth owning/taking/painting/playing (except for fun and modelers), Priests, Commisars, Ogryn, Vox, Master Vox, Enginseers, Any IC with CC weapons, Psykers and Improved Comms.

Uh-oh. I usually field 3 lascannon and a couple of AC/MLs in 1.5k. Granted, I'm not fighting that many MEQs but especially against skimmers, MC's, speed freaks and the likes lascannon aren't necessary, and often perform worse than say, AC.

Psykers are often useless. Otoh, they cost next to nothing.  I don't use them but I wouldn't count them out a priori. Ogryns take some experience to use properly and are frankly overpriced but if you manage to get them there at the right time, they're golden. I've employed them successfully against Lictors, Raveners, Ork mobs w/out pf, as front line squads against 2nd turn assaulters (hormies)...and lastly, powerweapons for officers. They're only 5 points, the officer is no IC, and when you kill a single marine it's paid for itself. Remember, if you manage to keep your army in good shape you can deal with the remaining assaulters.

Unfortunately everything there is probably a bad idea, Stormtroopers are overpriced, (compare the statline, gear and cost to a Sister of battle sometime)

I don't think that unit-on-unit comparisons are such a good idea. All units work within a specific context with their own strengths and weaknesses. Your whole force will still outnumber SoB's every time, or you will field more vehicles. 9 or even 8 points for ST would be ridiculous compared to hardened vets though, and their special weapons make SoB armour redundant anyways.