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I own reasonable Dark Angels and Wolves armies (about 3000pts each) and some Blood Angels (about 1500pts).

There has always been alot of discussion of the "unique" units that have been given to the Angels and Wolves to make their codex fuller and boost sales, especially since the "basic" marine range has been complete for years (one of the reasons for Primaris).

However looking at the actual units - how many of them are actually in any way unique, how many would not actually be represented in some form in other Chapters both in terms of Lore and game stats.

The Librarian Dreadnoughts are only in one chapter? Really?
No other Chapter has Sargeants leading squads in Terminator armour? Isn't that an Iron Hands thing too?
No other Chapter has more flexible teminator squads mixing close and ranged combat versons?
No other Chapter has mutations like Wolfen - isn't that a Black Dragons thing
No other Chapter rides beasts (much as I hate Wolves on Wolves) to battle?

Surely the basic unit templates for pretty much every Unique unit could and should be expanded to include these slight variations, with the relevant Chapter Keyword allowing access to a few other special rules /armoury should cover anything else?

What am I missing here. What would be lost by allowing those units be represeted in other Chapters?

It would also remove the problems of trying to cater for fans of these Chapters wanting everything plus their own "unique" units to make them Marines+ or having to have lesser versions of the same unit so that the three Chapters can retain a sense of specialness.

thanks

Pretty much agreed. These units shouldn't be removed, they should be opened up to every Chapter to use.

As a matter of interest, for all the people who support Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels having unique units, what's your verdict on the Ultramarines now getting Honour Guard exclusive to them?*


*personally, honour guard should be open to everyone, same as Deathwing, Wulfen, and Sanguinary Guard etc etc should be opened up to everyone.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much agreed. These units shouldn't be removed, they should be opened up to every Chapter to use.

As a matter of interest, for all the people who support Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels having unique units, what's your verdict on the Ultramarines now getting Honour Guard exclusive to them?*

*personally, honour guard should be open to everyone, same as Deathwing, Wulfen, and Sanguinary Guard etc etc should be opened up to everyone.

Agreed.

Tbh, I've wondered about this since I got into 40k. I can appreciate people like aspects of their lore, that's just personal preference - I personally don't like SW lore and I'm only mildly interested in the other two. That's why I collect Salamanders and Carcharodons - because their lore appeals to me. But what I can't understand is why those 3 Chapters in particular have been elevated out of 'Astartes' in general, and had whole product lines and codices deveted to them. Obviously, in later editions it's self-perpetuating, because now they're established as different, people will play them as being different - but I can't fathom why they were explicitly picked out of the others.

In terms of lore (which is where I mainly dwell in 40k interests) - there is no in-universe explanation for why all of these Chapters are 'special'. Barring quirks of mutations, the organisation of Chapters varies so much that anything goes. In that regard, there seems little justification for picking SW as 'Non-Codex-Compliant'. Carcharodons are non-Codex. Raven Guard operate in a non-Codex manner. Salamanders are non-Codex. Black Templars are also non-Codex. As for the Dark Angels - their HH thing was just best tech/inner strife. But that could cover literally hundreds of Chapters up to 40k. The Soul Drinkers spring to mind there.

If I'm honest, and obviously it's skewed by a disinterest in any one of those Chapters, I'd rather GW had invested their time and money into producing a number of upgrade sets for the 9 First Founding Chapters, transfers to match, and then had just given us a plethora of other units. I can't think of anyone's comments on Dakka that I've read who seriously thought that 'Father Grimnar' on his magical sledge was actually a worthwhile, needed and well executed model.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much agreed. These units shouldn't be removed, they should be opened up to every Chapter to use.

As a matter of interest, for all the people who support Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels having unique units, what's your verdict on the Ultramarines now getting Honour Guard exclusive to them?*

*personally, honour guard should be open to everyone, same as Deathwing, Wulfen, and Sanguinary Guard etc etc should be opened up to everyone.

Agreed.

I'll kinda disagree on Wulfen.
My ideal would be that Renegades get handled in the main Marine codex, and they lose out on the normally unique units to the Chapter (so Ultramarines lose Vitrix Guard, Blood Angels lose Death Company, etc) and they get replaced with Possessed, Warp Talons, and Spawn to show varying degrees of mutations or corruption in their ranks. Replace keywords so you can ally with Chaos stuff and BAM done.
Regarding of course the Red Corsairs + Huron (who already needs fixing to be Chapter Master status), they can count as a Successor of White Scars for their Tactics.

THEN we can actually focus the CSM codex on Legionnaires like it should've been and the world can be at peace.

I for one would want to continue having unique stuff for unique chapters. It makes them much more enjoyable to collect and play for me.

 Stux wrote:
I for one would want to continue having unique stuff for unique chapters. It makes them much more enjoyable to collect and play for me.

I feel the same. While most units should be shared, each major Chapter having a handful of unique units makes them feel special.
I am 100% for BA/DA/SW getting a supplement to the SM DeX to replace their current Codices, but I'd want their supplements to add their current special units.
And with the FAQ not updated thier Chapter Tactics to apply to all unit, nor give them Combat Doctrines, I suspect that's in the works.

-

 Stux wrote:
I for one would want to continue having unique stuff for unique chapters. It makes them much more enjoyable to collect and play for me.

Even if they are not unique?

Which do you think are "unique" to the various Chapters and would have no counterpart?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I for one would want to continue having unique stuff for unique chapters. It makes them much more enjoyable to collect and play for me.

Even if they are not unique?

Which do you think are "unique" to the various Chapters and would have no counterpart?

Depends on your standard for 'no counterpart'.

I consider Deathwing Knights unique, though obviously they are very similar to a specific loadout of Assault Terminators. But those small changes help sell that the unit is 'special'. If the only difference was fluff then I wouldn't feel that.

Likewise with Deathwing Terminators mixing regular weapons and melee in the same unit - I never actually do it, but I see it on the datasheet and think "huh, cool. That tells me something unique about the organisation of the chapter" I am intrigued.

There are some somewhat unique units then such as Black Knights and Dark Talons. The base unit exists, but they have equipment that changes how they are used quite a bit.

Truly unique units? We have the Darkshroud of course, which has no analogue in any other chapter. And of course character Landspeeders which again really help sell the unique organisation of the Ravenwing.

For me it's not good enough to say "let the lore do the work". Mechanics make lore feel real.

 Stux wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I for one would want to continue having unique stuff for unique chapters. It makes them much more enjoyable to collect and play for me.

Even if they are not unique?

Which do you think are "unique" to the various Chapters and would have no counterpart?

Depends on your standard for 'no counterpart'.

I consider Deathwing Knights unique, though obviously they are very similar to a specific loadout of Assault Terminators. But those small changes help sell that the unit is 'special'. If the only difference was fluff then I wouldn't feel that.

Likewise with Deathwing Terminators mixing regular weapons and melee in the same unit - I never actually do it, but I see it on the datasheet and think "huh, cool. That tells me something unique about the organisation of the chapter" I am intrigued.

There are some somewhat unique units then such as Black Knights and Dark Talons. The base unit exists, but they have equipment that changes how they are used quite a bit.

Truly unique units? We have the Darkshroud of course, which has no analogue in any other chapter. And of course character Landspeeders which again really help sell the unique organisation of the Ravenwing.

For me it's not good enough to say "let the lore do the work". Mechanics make lore feel real.

I don't understand - you need the actual unit options (that you never actually take ??) to make you interested in the unit rather than just the lore - why do you need the datasheet to tell you about the organisation when that is the entire point of the lore element of a codex?

I'm saying whether or not I take it is incidental. The fact it is there sells me on the uniqueness of the chapter. For me mechanics sell lore, not the other way around.

Stux wrote:For me it's not good enough to say "let the lore do the work". Mechanics make lore feel real.

I suppose that there is going to be the issue GW will always have. As a company making a hard product (The miniatures), and a non-physical product (The lore), it's always going to have to try and marry the two together to continue generating interest. And there'll be an added complexity of trying to please not only fans of the non-physical lore, casual fans of the collecting aspect (Who just want to model), and then also those who wish to utilise the product in the gaming system.

Not that I play, but I think 'unique' units should be opened up for all Chapters, with the only difference being that certain Chapters may have unique models, but not unique rules. For example, as Sgt. Smudge said, the Honour Guard should be open - but perhaps it's load-out could be a number of things, with provision made to mimic a classic "Sanguinary Guard" version or a classic "Ultramarines" version (EDIT: And I should have said, perhaps GW then makes BA and UM unique models, in the vein of FW Praetors, that are just aesthetically different). Again, I don't play and hence I don't understand the rules, but from a lore perspective it always strikes me as odd that they have whole separate codices devoted to them. Wouldn't it be better just to have a more expanded Chapter Tactics, but the same units?

 Warpig1815 wrote:

Stux wrote:For me it's not good enough to say "let the lore do the work". Mechanics make lore feel real.

I suppose that there is going to be the issue GW will always have. As a company making a hard product (The miniatures), and a non-physical product (The lore), it's always going to have to try and marry the two together to continue generating interest. And there'll be an added complexity of trying to please not only fans of the non-physical lore, casual fans of the collecting aspect (Who just want to model), and then also those who wish to utilise the product in the gaming system.

Not that I play, but I think 'unique' units should be opened up for all Chapters, with the only difference being that certain Chapters may have unique models, but not unique rules. For example, as Sgt. Smudge said, the Honour Guard should be open - but perhaps it's load-out could be a number of things, with provision made to mimic a classic "Sanguinary Guard" version or a classic "Ultramarines" version (EDIT: And I should have said, perhaps GW then makes BA and UM unique models, in the vein of FW Praetors, that are just aesthetically different). Again, I don't play and hence I don't understand the rules, but from a lore perspective it always strikes me as odd that they have whole separate codices devoted to them. Wouldn't it be better just to have a more expanded Chapter Tactics, but the same units?

See, I would really hate that. As a rules first thinker, I want my fancy models to have their own fancy rules haha.

As a rule a thinker first you would think the opposite actually.

 Stux wrote:
I'm saying whether or not I take it is incidental. The fact it is there sells me on the uniqueness of the chapter. For me mechanics sell lore, not the other way around.

Ok sort of understand - but you feel that the Da (and BA?SW) need ALL the current "unique" units to make them special? Do you steer away from the normal units in favour of the "unique" ones?

Do you buy mainy the unique units?

Would you only play a Chapter with all these trypes of units?

What do you think about All the Chapters that don't get them and yet are actually in the lore as or more diverse than the Dark Angels?

Ok, go play chess if you want everyone to have the same options.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I'm saying whether or not I take it is incidental. The fact it is there sells me on the uniqueness of the chapter. For me mechanics sell lore, not the other way around.

Ok sort of understand - but you feel that the Da (and BA?SW) need ALL the current "unique" units to make them special? Do you steer away from the normal units in favour of the "unique" ones?

Do you buy mainy the unique units?

Would you only play a Chapter with all these trypes of units?

What do you think about All the Chapters that don't get them and yet are actually in the lore as or more diverse than the Dark Angels?

I don't have hard and fast rules for myself about exactly much is needed, but broadly yes it would mean the chapter loses something for me if they homogenised any existing unique units with stuff from other chapters. In fact I'd like to see at least a couple more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

snakezenn2 wrote:
Ok, go play chess if you want everyone to have the same options.

Sort of this? It's a huge oversimplification of course, but no amount of lore makes chess more interesting for me.

 Stux wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I'm saying whether or not I take it is incidental. The fact it is there sells me on the uniqueness of the chapter. For me mechanics sell lore, not the other way around.

Ok sort of understand - but you feel that the Da (and BA?SW) need ALL the current "unique" units to make them special? Do you steer away from the normal units in favour of the "unique" ones?

Do you buy mainy the unique units?

Would you only play a Chapter with all these trypes of units?

What do you think about All the Chapters that don't get them and yet are actually in the lore as or more diverse than the Dark Angels?

I don't have hard and fast rules for myself about exactly much is needed, but broadly yes it would mean the chapter loses something for me if they homogenised any existing unique units with stuff from other chapters. In fact I'd like to see at least a couple more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

snakezenn2 wrote:
Ok, go play chess if you want everyone to have the same options.

Sort of this? It's a huge oversimplification of course, but no amount of lore makes chess more interesting for me.

This discussion has been had quite often, why bring it up again?

I didn't... I responded to other people's comments.

 Stux wrote:
I didn't... I responded to other people's comments.

Sorry the OP is bringing it up again

snakezenn2 wrote:
Ok, go play chess if you want everyone to have the same options.

Two Marines armies isn't the same as Marines vs Guard and people need to really stop the chess comparison. Angels share so many units with the main codex it's ridiculous.

snakezenn2 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I didn't... I responded to other people's comments.

Sorry the OP is bringing it up again

Are you going to actually contribute to the thread? So far you have not.

 Stux wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I'm saying whether or not I take it is incidental. The fact it is there sells me on the uniqueness of the chapter. For me mechanics sell lore, not the other way around.

Ok sort of understand - but you feel that the Da (and BA?SW) need ALL the current "unique" units to make them special? Do you steer away from the normal units in favour of the "unique" ones?

Do you buy mainy the unique units?

Would you only play a Chapter with all these trypes of units?

What do you think about All the Chapters that don't get them and yet are actually in the lore as or more diverse than the Dark Angels?

I don't have hard and fast rules for myself about exactly much is needed, but broadly yes it would mean the chapter loses something for me if they homogenised any existing unique units with stuff from other chapters. In fact I'd like to see at least a couple more.

And what do you think about Chapters other than the those that currently receive them?

Personally I hate the way my Wolves and Dark Angels has evolved but thats by the by, am I right in saying you love the more outlandish/flavour units?

For Dark Angels, sure there's nothing I dislike really.

For Wolves - I never really liked Space Wolves anyway. They seem more outlandish too, but I'm not sure if that's what I have an issue with (it just going TOO far), or if I was just never particularly into the theme to begin with.

snakezenn2 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I didn't... I responded to other people's comments.

Sorry the OP is bringing it up again

The OP is quite within his rights to ask anything he wants. And you are quite within your rights to answer it constructively, ignore it as being a tedious over asked topic that doesn't interest you, or respond critically and run the risk of coming off as a bit sour. Your call.

Moving on, the chess comparison perhaps less useful because the rules of chess relate solely to manoeuvre, whereas the rules of 40k relate more to attack and ability. So the premise in chess is to out-manoeuvre your opponent, where 40k is about manoeuvring units to where their attacks are best utilised. Furthermore, Chess is strictly limited to 6 types of unit, and all 6 MUST be taken. In 40k Marines, there are dozens of units, of which you can take (up to a point) any combination or number you like. Hence MarinevsMarine isn't 'Just like Chess' - it's still got enough depth of choice and complexity that unique units are not the only thing that makes a match flavourful (Even if the jury is still out in this thread as to whether they are wanted or not).

I think earlier editions that case could be made, but I think the ship has sailed. I don't play BA or SW, but for DA alone you have...

Deathwing Knights
Black Knights
Dark Shroud
LS vengeance
Dark Talon
Nephilim Jetfighter

The Deathwing and Ravenwing are extremely unique and integral to the DA organization.

I don't know how players would feel if we got the entire SM codex, and then a supplement that included all of the above as extra options, plus the associated characters (including Deathwing and Ravenwing), new doctrines (we might need 3 of those too), strategems, WTs, relics etc, etc. I think people would likely cry power creep.

We get access to the above at the expense of not having centurions, thunderfire cannons, the fighters, sternguard, vanguard veterans, etc.

Sure, you could make a supplement with just the extra units plus an addendum at the start that stated what units you don't get. I'm buying the SM codex anyway, so it could be OK but I feel it would be a little messy. I'd rather just buy a DA codex..

I'd be interested to know...

I'm going to use the Ravenwing - they're Astartes on bikes. Every Chapter has Astartes on bikes, but the lore wise, the Ravenwing operate differently. So what justifies their getting rules? Lore-wise they operate differently, but are functionally identical, model wise they're just aesthetically different, so it all boils down to giving them a rule just to create a different army because you can. So now you have Ravenwing with new rules - for DA players does it not feel like cheating that you've got an extra rule in your arsenal, for a unit that is functionally identical, whilst others go without just because of a disinterest in the lore?

Obviously, that is avoiding the fact that Ravenwing may be balanced by the fact that DA can't take a different unit, but if that isn't a reality, what is providing the balance? Is it just omissions of units, or do they get certain traits and rules taken away too. I'm just curious is all.

EDIT: Ignore this. @bullyboy basically answered this by pointing out DA can't take stuff like Vanguards. So I understand the balance now

 bullyboy wrote:
I think earlier editions that case could be made, but I think the ship has sailed. I don't play BA or SW, but for DA alone you have...

Deathwing Knights
Black Knights
Dark Shroud
LS vengeance
Dark Talon
Nephilim Jetfighter

The Deathwing and Ravenwing are extremely unique and integral to the DA organization.

I don't know how players would feel if we got the entire SM codex, and then a supplement that included all of the above as extra options, plus the associated characters (including Deathwing and Ravenwing), new doctrines (we might need 3 of those too), strategems, WTs, relics etc, etc. I think people would likely cry power creep.

We get access to the above at the expense of not having centurions, thunderfire cannons, the fighters, sternguard, vanguard veterans, etc.

Sure, you could make a supplement with just the extra units plus an addendum at the start that stated what units you don't get. I'm buying the SM codex anyway, so it could be OK but I feel it would be a little messy. I'd rather just buy a DA codex..

Exactly my point of view. Going back to v3 with DA/BA and SW as codex supplement could make sense from a rule perspective (more simplicity / fluidity) but it is just too late considering every units those specific chapters got over the years. GW, on the other side, seems to be doing the exact opposite : for chaos they separated CSM with thousand sons and death guard, to give more flesh to the specificity of all those chapters, and they won't go back.

I'm going to use the Ravenwing - they're Astartes on bikes. Every Chapter has Astartes on bikes, but the lore wise, the Ravenwing operate differently. So what justifies their getting rules? Lore-wise they operate differently, but are functionally identical, model wise they're just aesthetically different, so it all boils down to giving them a rule just to create a different army because you can. So now you have Ravenwing with new rules - for DA players does it not feel like cheating that you've got an extra rule in your arsenal, for a unit that is functionally identical, whilst others go without just because of a disinterest in the lore?

Ravenwings are not using the same units - they have two specific land speeder, a specific bike unit, two specific HQ, and the DA's air units are not pilotted by techmarines but by ravenwing DA, and thus are part of ravenwing (and are specific to DA).

Ravenwings are not using the same units - they have two specific land speeder, a specific bike unit, two specific HQ, and the DA's air units are not pilotted by techmarines but by ravenwing DA, and thus are part of ravenwing (and are specific to DA).

I don;t have the current Codex- how different are they to the baseline units? (Not including HQ's)

 Mr Morden wrote:

Ravenwings are not using the same units - they have two specific land speeder, a specific bike unit, two specific HQ, and the DA's air units are not pilotted by techmarines but by ravenwing DA, and thus are part of ravenwing (and are specific to DA).

I don;t have the current Codex- how different are they to the baseline units? (Not including HQ's)

Black Knights are bikes armed with plasma talon (assault 2 18" plasma weapon) and corvus hammer (+1 Str -1 AP d3 dmg on a 6) and the sergeant can take a melta bomb (plus they all have one extra attack). They are like elite bike. The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

In the 3rd, the ravenwing was just a group of normal bike in black. Nowadays it's not the case imo.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Ravenwings are not using the same units - they have two specific land speeder, a specific bike unit, two specific HQ, and the DA's air units are not pilotted by techmarines but by ravenwing DA, and thus are part of ravenwing (and are specific to DA).

I don;t have the current Codex- how different are they to the baseline units? (Not including HQ's)

Black Knights are bikes armed with plasma talon (assault 2 18" plasma weapon) and corvus hammer (+1 Str -1 AP d3 dmg on a 6) and the sergeant can take a melta bomb. They are like elite bike. The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

In the 3rd, the ravenwing was just a group of normal bike in black. Nowadays it's not the case imo.

Well seeing as the Bikers are still really the same and the Land Speeders can be consolidated into a single unit entry with the options, and that the Jetfighter behaves the same as the Talon...what's your argument?