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So I wanted to make the Farsight Enclaves rules to be more usable, if not more competitive while keeping it very lore-driven.

This isn't supposed to be a complete 8ed re-write, but based on the current rules these are more upgrades and tweaks, to make the FSE more on par with the actually competitive T'au and Sa'cea Septs etc.

EDIT: Changed the tenet to re-roll wound rolls of 1, instead re-roll all failed wound rolls.
- Changed WL trait to add +1 to hit in the fight phase for one FSE unit (instead of just one Battlesuit unit) within 6" of the WL.

I have to admit I love all of it except for the Sept Tenant. Rerolling ALL failed to wound with shooting within 12" for free is very very strong and in my opinion too much. Maybe reroll 1's to wound but effectively Doom for free for all units in melee AND shooting within 12" is just too strong of an ability.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I have to admit I love all of it except for the Sept Tenant. Rerolling ALL failed to wound with shooting within 12" for free is very very strong and in my opinion too much. Maybe reroll 1's to wound but effectively Doom for free for all units in melee AND shooting within 12" is just too strong of an ability.

I've changed it to re-roll wound rolls of 1. I definitely want FSE players to feel like they have solid bonuses in choosing to get within charge range of opponents (as majority of Tau units have shooting ranges further than that), or even melee combat - pretty much the opposite to all the other Tau Septs. Forward aggression is part of FSE culture, hopefully these rules make them stronger in playing to that style!

Have you considered maintaining the reroll wound rolls within 6" but also including melee? Couple this with either +1S on the charge or when charged or +1A (they pretty much even out) would make Tau melee very interesting and potentially rewarding. My friend plays farsight enclaves and we both find the trait very whelming, I think this would really shake things up

 fraser1191 wrote:
Have you considered maintaining the reroll wound rolls within 6" but also including melee? Couple this with either +1S on the charge or when charged or +1A (they pretty much even out) would make Tau melee very interesting and potentially rewarding. My friend plays farsight enclaves and we both find the trait very whelming, I think this would really shake things up

My brother and I when playing FSE have found the current tenet basically unusable actually, as the 6" range is just too close except for select units (maybe breachers and the Y'vahra).

While boosting the bonuses for the 6" range and melee is a possibility, the only ones that could really take advantage of the melee capabilities is Farsight, Commanders with the melee relics, and then to a lesser extent crisis suits. With the proposed amendments they are getting strong melee bonuses already as they are starting off with S8-10 with the melee relics, so re-rolling 1's to wound is sufficient as they are mostly wounding on 2's or 3's. By keeping it to 6" your taking the tenet boosts away from the rest of your army though I feel. With the tenet's 12" range, it's the sweet spot for shooting Tau units - as it activates during overwatch (synergising with For the Greater Good), with the majority of the other armies often feeling like charging your squishy Firewarriors / pathfinders to try and finish them off.

Tau Infantry with +1S on the charge/d, is still a S4 T3 1A WS5+ model with no melee weapons to speak of (except for maybe the leader's pulse pistol). I dont think they would survive to fight back. However, if you keep them at 12" and have them continue to fire away re-rolling 1's to wound, and then on the opponent's turn, if they have units they want to charge you with, have For the Greater Good kicking on your overwatch, with re-rolling 1's to wound again, your overall army performance will be stronger - compared to waiting for the opponent to have one round of combat against your Tau infantry before your tenet bonuses kicks in.

IMO 9" would be a reasonable distance for this tenet.

 skchsan wrote:
IMO 9" would be a reasonable distance for this tenet.

I don't really see that. 12" is charge range so if the Tau unit is within 12" of a melee unit they really need the damage to go through before they get mulched and unless they have fly that could be the last time they shoot even if they survive. I'd rather try for 12" before deciding it's too much at least.

I feel like it would be overkill if you could FtGG and reroll 1's within 12".

If not, instead of the 12" reroll buff, how about:

Units with this ability can make a single shooting attack with any one of ranged weapons it is equipped with against enemy unit that is within 1" during the fight phase.

It's fluffy, and not overwhelmingly powerful as it's highly situational since, while FSE is the melee-centric tau sept, it's not a melee powerhouse.

 skchsan wrote:
I feel like it would be overkill if you could FtGG and reroll 1's within 12".

Actually now that you mention it, Farsight Enclaves probably shouldn't have "For the Greater Good" since they defected from it. Maybe that could be replaced with something more suitably aggressive. Get on it OP!

(I still don't see how it'd be overkill regardless since it you're still only hitting on 6s, but that can't really be determined without playtesting)

Maybe to encourage some brutal close quarters combat, Tau rapid fire/ Assault weapons* are replaced with 'Pistol' when in combat?

Could certainly be interesting!

*Edited, maybe only on Infantry and Battlesuit only!

Dandelion wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I feel like it would be overkill if you could FtGG and reroll 1's within 12".

Actually now that you mention it, Farsight Enclaves probably shouldn't have "For the Greater Good" since they defected from it. Maybe that could be replaced with something more suitably aggressive. Get on it OP!

(I still don't see how it'd be overkill regardless since it you're still only hitting on 6s, but that can't really be determined without playtesting)

They could have that one GSC trait where all of their units can heroically intervene. That would be pretty cool actually.

So that replaces FtGG and then we just have to make Tau competent in melee, we got a lot of work to do

What about Catachan-esque trait? All units with this sept has +1 to strength? Perhaps it doesn't feel "counter-strike-y?"

It would reflect how FSE also train for melee combat.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I feel like it would be overkill if you could FtGG and reroll 1's within 12".

Actually now that you mention it, Farsight Enclaves probably shouldn't have "For the Greater Good" since they defected from it. Maybe that could be replaced with something more suitably aggressive. Get on it OP!

(I still don't see how it'd be overkill regardless since it you're still only hitting on 6s, but that can't really be determined without playtesting)

They could have that one GSC trait where all of their units can heroically intervene. That would be pretty cool actually.

So that replaces FtGG and then we just have to make Tau competent in melee, we got a lot of work to do

Well FSE reject Ethereal supervision (represented in the rules by them not allowing any Ethereal models from any FSE detachments any more). They still believe in the ideals of For the Greater Good – but more importantly lore-wise nothing suggests they stopped practising the tactic of Supporting Fire (7ed name of the same rule).

T'au Sept have FtGG + Overwatch on 5+. I'd say on paper T'au Sep actually have better chances of wounding opponents overall in overwatch, than FtGG + Overwatch on 6s + re-rolling 1s to wound. Unless people think the T'au Sept's tenet is already overpowered, I don't see how the weaker bonus to FSE's overwatch would suddenly make them overpowered.

About the strictly combat bonuses for FSE units:

Crisis suits are fine with possible melee bonuses as their T5 3W 3+/4++ save makes them respectable in surviving against non-dedicated combat units. However, any Tau infantry would struggle to make use of rules strictly for Combat, or for shooting enemy units within 1”. I simply dont see how reliable it is for only T3 W1 4/5+ save models to survive the first round of combat, against even generic SM who get +1A and -1AP (with assault doctrines) on the charge/d. Let's not get into the more combat armies of SW, BA, GSC, Slaneesh, Khorne etc. At least not in any meaningful way to make solid use of any S5 shooting from a few( any?) remaining Tau Fire warriors. FSE Infantry are brave and prefer close-range battle/shooting...but lets not have them rush to get slaughtered in close combat please...lol.

Usable close range-shooting bonuses for the rest of the FSE army that's not Farsight, Commanders or Crisis suits (<- what if your army doenst have any of those 3 units? lol), seems like the most feasible way to have them competitively or at least on par with the other Tau Septs.

I think if the enclave Tenet is supposed to be strategy defining and competitive it should be either reroll 1's to wound at 18" or +1 to wound at 12". While that might seem excessive, the previously suggested versions would never make you want to move actively towards the enemy nor would they be as strong as 5+ Overwatch. Losing 5+ Overwatch represents huge opportunity costs, because it synergises extremely well with ftgg. Even with a range of 18", halve the time you shoot in the shooting phase the tenet would not come into play unless you play with very fast or short ranged units and I am not sure the loss of the ability to simply stay put on your objective and far away from your enemy is actually worth it. And even with a +1 to wound at 12", 5+ overwatch is still the stronger overwatch. Remember that Tau play best when sitting still in their deployment zone or near it at the moment.

I do not want to see any close combat buffs, because everything you could potentially give to the Tau still does not even make them semi competent in close combat. If deciding between patching a weakness and strengthening a strength you always go for the other.

 skchsan wrote:
What about Catachan-esque trait? All units with this sept has +1 to strength? Perhaps it doesn't feel "counter-strike-y?"

It would reflect how FSE also train for melee combat.

I'm not sure how helpful +1S is for an army where every unit besides HQs only have WS5+. Also FSE Infantry don't train for melee combat anymore than other Sept's infantry. It's only the Hero Crisis Commanders who have powerful (lore-wise) combat relics who are more comfortable in melee combat compared to other Sept Commanders.

They are known for deep-striking Crisis Suit bombs though.



^ Probably the closest thing you would get for FSE close combat potential/scenarios.

Strategy, tactics & army composition-wise, who do you think should benefit the most from the sept tenet?

I absolutely love that image of FSE (I used to play FSE back in 3rd ed because it's limitation set a spending limit for myself when I was young), and I do think it would be very thematic if FSE sept tenet could make crisis-based build lot more viable than other tenets - and I think the warlord trait does this really well, but the sept tenet could go a little bit further with this.

Also, regarding the Onager Gauntlet - what if you introduced a mechanism that reflects it's fluff slightly more? Say, since it's a prototype and the last remaining one at that, maybe reflect some sort of 'double-edged sword' like quality to it to show that it wasn't just the fact of getting into close combat with imperium tanks that was the issue, but there was some sort of design flaw where the gauntlet couldn't handle the mechanical stress of it's offensive capabilities? Say, "if the damage roll for this weapon exceeds 6, the model suffers 1 MW, which cannot be mitigated by a drone's savior protocol."

Waking Dreamer wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I feel like it would be overkill if you could FtGG and reroll 1's within 12".

Actually now that you mention it, Farsight Enclaves probably shouldn't have "For the Greater Good" since they defected from it. Maybe that could be replaced with something more suitably aggressive. Get on it OP!

(I still don't see how it'd be overkill regardless since it you're still only hitting on 6s, but that can't really be determined without playtesting)

They could have that one GSC trait where all of their units can heroically intervene. That would be pretty cool actually.

So that replaces FtGG and then we just have to make Tau competent in melee, we got a lot of work to do

Well FSE reject Ethereal supervision (represented in the rules by them not allowing any Ethereal models from any FSE detachments any more). They still believe in the ideals of For the Greater Good – but more importantly lore-wise nothing suggests they stopped practising the tactic of Supporting Fire (7ed name of the same rule).

T'au Sept have FtGG + Overwatch on 5+. I'd say on paper T'au Sep actually have better chances of wounding opponents overall in overwatch, than FtGG + Overwatch on 6s + re-rolling 1s to wound. Unless people think the T'au Sept's tenet is already overpowered, I don't see how the weaker bonus to FSE's overwatch would suddenly make them overpowered.

About the strictly combat bonuses for FSE units:

Crisis suits are fine with possible melee bonuses as their T5 3W 3+/4++ save makes them respectable in surviving against non-dedicated combat units. However, any Tau infantry would struggle to make use of rules strictly for Combat, or for shooting enemy units within 1”. I simply dont see how reliable it is for only T3 W1 4/5+ save models to survive the first round of combat, against even generic SM who get +1A and -1AP (with assault doctrines) on the charge/d. Let's not get into the more combat armies of SW, BA, GSC, Slaneesh, Khorne etc. At least not in any meaningful way to make solid use of any S5 shooting from a few( any?) remaining Tau Fire warriors. FSE Infantry are brave and prefer close-range battle/shooting...but lets not have them rush to get slaughtered in close combat please...lol.

Usable close range-shooting bonuses for the rest of the FSE army that's not Farsight, Commanders or Crisis suits (<- what if your army doenst have any of those 3 units? lol), seems like the most feasible way to have them competitively or at least on par with the other Tau Septs.

They're still Tau, don't expect them to be good at melee. Reroll 1's to wound is in a short-range is a pretty fitting trait for them, the only question is how short. 9" would allow some melee armies and most 24" rapid-fire units to touch them relatively unmolested. Considering that FSE has one of the worst tenets (or so I've heard) rerolling 1s to would for any attacks (shooting and melee) that target an enemy unit within 12" would probably not be too much.

The idea of letting all FSE units in a given area heroically intervene is interesting, maybe make the warlord trait allow all FSE units within 6" to heroically intervene as if there were a character for the "in addition" bit (this doesn't let them intervene 6"). It would be a very strong warlord trait, like FtGG in melee.

Also, +1 to wound on the onager gauntlet? Are you trying to punch titans to death? +1 to hit and a the damage boost are probably enough. Then again there is probably a reason I have never seen it used so I don't know how strong (or weak) it normally is. But I can compare it to the Custodes Obliteratum, a similar S10 1 shot AT weapon, and it only gets d3 damage. It is also never used, so maybe it should be 2d3 or even 3d3 damage instead.

So reroll 1's to wound up to 12" and heroic intervention for all units? While fluffy still barely a trade for 5+ overwatch. You do not want to assault, even if you have +1A and +1S or +1Ws because your units will possibly not be able to shoot in your turns and you do not want to get closer to the enemy as has been said before. Not for a handful of attacks with no ap.

Shovi wrote:
So reroll 1's to wound up to 12" and heroic intervention for all units? While fluffy still barely a trade for 5+ overwatch. You do not want to assault, even if you have +1A and +1S or +1Ws because your units will possibly not be able to shoot in your turns and you do not want to get closer to the enemy as has been said before. Not for a handful of attacks with no ap.

Heroic interventions would just be for units around your warlord. As a DW player (not trying to sabotage tau, I swear), having heroic interventions on my troops is pretty powerful, but I guess It wouldn't help tau at all to have units tied up in melee.

What if all FSE units also got -1 AP to their CC weapons on a charge, getting charged, heroically intervening, maybe +1 WS too? FW would be slightly better than Guard in melee.
Or maybe an ultramarines style withdraw and shoot would work. Either as a stratagem with a -1 to hit (a single unit for 1CP or army-wide for 3CP) or as part of the sept tenant on a 6+ BS.

Do Farsight Enclaves hit or wound better close to the enemy than other septs do in mid or long range?
Or are they trained to still shoot effectively and don't get butchered in close range and melee?
I think it's the latter.

Therefore I would like to have all FSE infantry units get the ability to attack in the shooting phase even if they fell back that turn.
However this ability does not take you far, if there are no models to fall back with. Therefore in addition all FSE infantry units should get a reroll of ones for save rolls against wounds caused by melee attacks. Or even a straight +1 to save rolls against wounds caused by melee attacks, would have to be mathhammered and playtested, if this would be over the top.
I think these two abilities would make for a fitting sept tenet and breachers, a unit based on Farsight's insights to close combat, could be better put to use.

Additionaly the strategy of mont'ka does not wait to show it's effect later in battle, mont'ka is to be executed at the very start of the battle, it's the swift blade which beheads the enemy.
With the latest space marines rules GW tells us that deep strikes on turn one are still fine, if they are restricted to smaller number of units.
Therefore in addition to the improved Heroic Intervention a Hero of the Enclaves should get the ability to deep strike on turn one together with a single unit of Crisis Battlesuits or Crisis Bodyguards.

I still think making 1 attack using profiles for one of their ranged weapon in assault is the strongest you can make this tenet.

To balance it out make it so that it can only be used against target it was charged from.

So you have fire warrior point-blanking with a pulse rifle, breachers shooting pulse shotgun to the face, crisis shooting melta to the face, etc.

myUserName wrote:Do Farsight Enclaves hit or wound better close to the enemy than other septs do in mid or long range?
Or are they trained to still shoot effectively and don't get butchered in close range and melee?
I think it's the latter.

Therefore I would like to have all FSE infantry units get the ability to attack in the shooting phase even if they fell back that turn.
However this ability does not take you far, if there are no models to fall back with. Therefore in addition all FSE infantry units should get a reroll of ones for save rolls against wounds caused by melee attacks. Or even a straight +1 to save rolls against wounds caused by melee attacks, would have to be mathhammered and playtested, if this would be over the top.
I think these two abilities would make for a fitting sept tenet and breachers, a unit based on Farsight's insights to close combat, could be better put to use.

Additionaly the strategy of mont'ka does not wait to show it's effect later in battle, mont'ka is to be executed at the very start of the battle, it's the swift blade which beheads the enemy.
With the latest space marines rules GW tells us that deep strikes on turn one are still fine, if they are restricted to smaller number of units.
Therefore in addition to the improved Heroic Intervention a Hero of the Enclaves should get the ability to deep strike on turn one together with a single unit of Crisis Battlesuits or Crisis Bodyguards.

I don't know about increasing save throws, 2+ save battlesuits seem out of place. I think a better rule might be something like increasing the AP of melee attacks, allowing fall back and shoot, or as @skchsan suggests letting units shoot during the fight phase, maybe a hit roll of 6 lets a unit make a shooting attack with one of its weapons using the models WS targeting the nearest enemy unit even if {...}, these hit rolls cannot generate {...}, and takes place in addition to normal attacks. It would give a max sized crisis suit the equivalent of firing two weapons in melee.

As the for turn 1 manta strike, change the farsight stratagem to let you manta strike and ignore tactical reserves rule, maybe as an alternative choice. It will only ever apply to one unit aturn, but you won't get the +1 to hit unless you use the stratagem twice. Making it part of the warlord trait is too much in one ability.

 Eipi10 wrote:


They're still Tau, don't expect them to be good at melee. Reroll 1's to wound is in a short-range is a pretty fitting trait for them, the only question is how short. 9" would allow some melee armies and most 24" rapid-fire units to touch them relatively unmolested. Considering that FSE has one of the worst tenets (or so I've heard) rerolling 1s to would for any attacks (shooting and melee) that target an enemy unit within 12" would probably not be too much.

Yeah, as an army I was never expecting them to be as such - except for probably their unique FSE heroes Farsight, Bravestorm (Onager Gauntlet Commander) and Brightsword (Fusion Blades Commander). GW makes you pay 1CP each per combat relic, to include it in your army as part of FSE's legendary The Eight (probably the most fluffy aspect for FSE so far). Ideally, investing into those 8 models + drones + 3 relics as a unique FSE-only LOW choice, should be near-equivalent to putting on the table the Tau version of their own Primarch. Honestly, you're paying almost 3 times over the cost of Roboute Guilliman and shelling out 3CP (where the Primarch actually gives his army an extra 3CP instead) to play them.

 Eipi10 wrote:
The idea of letting all FSE units in a given area heroically intervene is interesting, maybe make the warlord trait allow all FSE units within 6" to heroically intervene as if there were a character for the "in addition" bit (this doesn't let them intervene 6"). It would be a very strong warlord trait, like FtGG in melee.

Heroic intervention for other units seems fluffy enough for a combat version of ftgg, but as you said, with Tau units (except for the current Farsight, and to a lesser extent Crisis Commanders with their WS3+) being bad in combat, would lack meaningful synergy and game changing strategy - compared to ftgg and Tau's innate strong ranged weaponry. I think the proposed +1 to hit in combat for one battlesuit unit within 6" of your WL , has potentially stronger synergy as I'll breakdown at the end of my post. I know others have stated combat buffs are a bad idea (and I agree for most Tau units) but again, heroic intervention for all units within "6, technically pushes Tau units into combat anyway.But overall I agree with the sentiment to not try to make particular Tau units what they're not . Enhanced their strengths e.g. Tau is good in shooting and overwatch. Make FSE Tau better at close-range shooting and overwatch compared to most other Tau septs.

 Eipi10 wrote:
Also, +1 to wound on the onager gauntlet? Are you trying to punch titans to death? +1 to hit and a the damage boost are probably enough. Then again there is probably a reason I have never seen it used so I don't know how strong (or weak) it normally is. But I can compare it to the Custodes Obliteratum, a similar S10 1 shot AT weapon, and it only gets d3 damage. It is also never used, so maybe it should be 2d3 or even 3d3 damage instead.

Not Titans, Leman Russ tanks on the other hand... Ive been thinking for a long while now, what rules would make the Onager Gauntlet reliably cripple a T8 W12 Leman Russ tank in one round of combat (i.e. 1A on WS3+). I didn't want to give the relic a base profile of something ridiculous like S14-16, but hoping with the 3+ to hit, and then 3+ to wound (targets with T6 or higher - which are most vehicles) on only one attack, then with hopefully a good D6 damage roll (the official damage rule) - clearly wasn't good enough for a relic that also costs you 1CP. BUT with +1 to hit and to wound against vehicles (aka Leman Russ tanks just like in the fluff)...the Onager Gauntlet is now hitting on 2s, wounding on 2's and statsically averaging around a little over 6 damage on a tank (3D3 Damage), knocking it down at least one damage bracket, if it wasn't damaged beforehand from any shooting. Not bad for a relic weapon designed to kill tanks in combat with only one attack? Worth the 1CP to include in your army now imo.

Now, about the potentially strong synergy of the proposed Tenet, WL Trait and Relics:

Tweaking the relic abilities + WL trait + Sept tenet, I think I came up with the perfect blend of rules to makes those legendary FSE heroes (the units with the best potential for combat) respectably strong in assault - not just compared to Tau, but across the other non-tau armies...they are now / should be strong. Not necessarily buffed Smash Captain, Abaddon, Swarmlord, or Guilliman combat monsters...but objectively, combat worthy strong!

So, to breakdown the FSE Trinity of combat heroes, who should actually be more than capable in combat with: Farsight's 6" re-roll 1s to hit in melee aura + re-roll 1s to wound Tenet buff + add 1 to hit in combat for one battlesuit unit within 6" of WL trait. You can potentially have:

- Farsight: WS2+ with four S8 AP-4 Dd3 attacks (re-roll 1s to hit and re-roll 1s to wound).
- Brightsword: WS3+ / WS2+* with two S8 AP-4 Dd6 attacks + two S5 AP0 D1 attacks (re-roll 1s to hit and re-roll 1s to wound).
- Bravestorm: WS3+ / WS2+** with one S10 S8 AP-4 D3d3 attack + three S5 AP0 D1 attacks (re-roll 1s to hit and re-roll 1s to wound).

* If you want to chose Brightsword for the +1 to hit melee buff from the WL trait.
** If you are chosing to attack a vehicle, or you instead chose Bravestorm for the +1 to hit melee buff from the WL trait.

^ That should reward any cunning FSE player who manages to deliver all 3 legendary heroes into the opponents lines and into combat, wthin 6" of each other.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
Strategy, tactics & army composition-wise, who do you think should benefit the most from the sept tenet?

I absolutely love that image of FSE (I used to play FSE back in 3rd ed because it's limitation set a spending limit for myself when I was young), and I do think it would be very thematic if FSE sept tenet could make crisis-based build lot more viable than other tenets - and I think the warlord trait does this really well, but the sept tenet could go a little bit further with this.

Well the FSE-only Stratagem: Drop Zone Clear (2CP), allows one crisis suit unit to add 1 to hit rolls during the shooting phase on the turn they deepstrike. So crisis suits hitting on 3s, possibly even 2s with full marker light support. Actually, the proposed tenet of re-rolling 1s to wound within 12" shooting and melee synergises extremely well with Crisis suits here. Deeptrike 9" away from the enemy with a unit of crisis suits and Farsight, pop off the FSE stratagem and have your crisis suit now shooting on 3s, and then re-rolling 1s to wound (tenet). Charge the remaining enemy models along with Farsight who can give the Crisis suits +1 to hit in melee (WL trait), making them hit on 4s re-rolling 1s to hit in melee (Farsight's inbuilt aura), and then finally having all of them re-roll 1s to wound in melee (tenet once again).

^ Pretty solid synergy happening there I think.

 skchsan wrote:
Also, regarding the Onager Gauntlet - what if you introduced a mechanism that reflects it's fluff slightly more? Say, since it's a prototype and the last remaining one at that, maybe reflect some sort of 'double-edged sword' like quality to it to show that it wasn't just the fact of getting into close combat with imperium tanks that was the issue, but there was some sort of design flaw where the gauntlet couldn't handle the mechanical stress of it's offensive capabilities? Say, "if the damage roll for this weapon exceeds 6, the model suffers 1 MW, which cannot be mitigated by a drone's savior protocol."

Currently in this edition, the Onager Gauntlet just like the Fusion Blades relic, do already have handicaps. You cannot use them on the full number of your model's attack profile (as to represent their powerful, yet energy draining / volatile nature). I did think about possible self / relic inflicted MWs, but that would have probably mean brand new profile to the relic stats to re-balance the pros and cons. Honestly, the one (and only one) attack with the Onager Gauntlet made it unusable in the codex, and I've spent most of the time getting around that handicap to make it worth taking even at a cost of 1CP.

I really like the idea of being able to shoot weapons in cc. Getting a second shooting phase with a unit is obviously very strong, so hittings at ws would make sense, which is essentially a -1 to hit so 5+ for most untis. Basically this abilty would be an elegant substitute to 5+ ftgg. Instead of getting to shoot in the enemies charge phase you get to do it in your turn and have more of a choice, however, it is limited to Tau units that actually make a charge. If it is stil considered too strong you could even limit the ability to the turn you charged or were charged and dedicated melee units would still kill you with ease if you do not manage to kill them first. With a rule like that, I would actually consider moving actively towards the enemy in some cases. Remember that charging with Tau means they expose themselves to counter charges and ofthen leave their drones behind that protect them too.

I like "chapter tactics" that influence your choices during list creation and during the game. Moving and advancing Tau would be quite a change, and force the Tau player and his enemy to think differently which is highly welcome.

Shovi wrote:
I really like the idea of being able to shoot weapons in cc. Getting a second shooting phase with a unit is obviously very strong, so hittings at ws would make sense, which is essentially a -1 to hit so 5+ for most untis. Basically this abilty would be an elegant substitute to 5+ ftgg. Instead of getting to shoot in the enemies charge phase you get to do it in your turn and have more of a choice, however, it is limited to Tau units that actually make a charge. If it is stil considered too strong you could even limit the ability to the turn you charged or were charged and dedicated melee units would still kill you with ease if you do not manage to kill them first. With a rule like that, I would actually consider moving actively towards the enemy in some cases. Remember that charging with Tau means they expose themselves to counter charges and ofthen leave their drones behind that protect them too.

I like "chapter tactics" that influence your choices during list creation and during the game. Moving and advancing Tau would be quite a change, and force the Tau player and his enemy to think differently which is highly welcome.

So you're saying you would have all FSE units being able to unload all their ranged weapons in the first round of combat at their WS, which is usually 5+. How about crisis commanders who could have 4 weapons (eg. quad fusion blasters) and have WS3+?

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

Shovi wrote:
I really like the idea of being able to shoot weapons in cc. Getting a second shooting phase with a unit is obviously very strong, so hittings at ws would make sense, which is essentially a -1 to hit so 5+ for most untis. Basically this abilty would be an elegant substitute to 5+ ftgg. Instead of getting to shoot in the enemies charge phase you get to do it in your turn and have more of a choice, however, it is limited to Tau units that actually make a charge. If it is stil considered too strong you could even limit the ability to the turn you charged or were charged and dedicated melee units would still kill you with ease if you do not manage to kill them first. With a rule like that, I would actually consider moving actively towards the enemy in some cases. Remember that charging with Tau means they expose themselves to counter charges and ofthen leave their drones behind that protect them too.

I like "chapter tactics" that influence your choices during list creation and during the game. Moving and advancing Tau would be quite a change, and force the Tau player and his enemy to think differently which is highly welcome.

So you're saying you would have all FSE units being able to unload all their ranged weapons in the first round of combat at their WS, which is usually 5+. How about crisis commanders who could have 4 weapons and have WS+3?

No they would make a melee attack using the S and AP of a ranged weapon, perhaps upto 1 attack.

 skchsan wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

Shovi wrote:
I really like the idea of being able to shoot weapons in cc. Getting a second shooting phase with a unit is obviously very strong, so hittings at ws would make sense, which is essentially a -1 to hit so 5+ for most untis. Basically this abilty would be an elegant substitute to 5+ ftgg. Instead of getting to shoot in the enemies charge phase you get to do it in your turn and have more of a choice, however, it is limited to Tau units that actually make a charge. If it is stil considered too strong you could even limit the ability to the turn you charged or were charged and dedicated melee units would still kill you with ease if you do not manage to kill them first. With a rule like that, I would actually consider moving actively towards the enemy in some cases. Remember that charging with Tau means they expose themselves to counter charges and ofthen leave their drones behind that protect them too.

I like "chapter tactics" that influence your choices during list creation and during the game. Moving and advancing Tau would be quite a change, and force the Tau player and his enemy to think differently which is highly welcome.

So you're saying you would have all FSE units being able to unload all their ranged weapons in the first round of combat at their WS, which is usually 5+. How about crisis commanders who could have 4 weapons (eg. quad fusion blasters) and have WS3+?

No they would make a melee attack using the S and AP of a ranged weapon, perhaps upto 1 attack.

And then how about the damage of that attack, the same as the ranged weapon? Eg. a unit equipped with a fusion blaster would also deal d6 damage?

And just to clarify it's an attack per unit, or actually per FSE model in combat?

Waking Dreamer wrote:

Spoiler:

 Eipi10 wrote:


They're still Tau, don't expect them to be good at melee. Reroll 1's to wound is in a short-range is a pretty fitting trait for them, the only question is how short. 9" would allow some melee armies and most 24" rapid-fire units to touch them relatively unmolested. Considering that FSE has one of the worst tenets (or so I've heard) rerolling 1s to would for any attacks (shooting and melee) that target an enemy unit within 12" would probably not be too much.

Yeah, as an army I was never expecting them to be as such - except for probably their unique FSE heroes Farsight, Bravestorm (Onager Gauntlet Commander) and Brightsword (Fusion Blades Commander). GW makes you pay 1CP each per combat relic, to include it in your army as part of FSE's legendary The Eight (probably the most fluffy aspect for FSE so far). Ideally, investing into those 8 models + drones + 3 relics as a unique FSE-only LOW choice, should be near-equivalent to putting on the table the Tau version of their own Primarch. Honestly, you're paying almost 3 times over the cost of Roboute Guilliman and shelling out 3CP (where the Primarch actually gives his army an extra 3CP instead) to play them.

 Eipi10 wrote:
The idea of letting all FSE units in a given area heroically intervene is interesting, maybe make the warlord trait allow all FSE units within 6" to heroically intervene as if there were a character for the "in addition" bit (this doesn't let them intervene 6"). It would be a very strong warlord trait, like FtGG in melee.

Heroic intervention for other units seems fluffy enough for a combat version of ftgg, but as you said, with Tau units (except for the current Farsight, and to a lesser extent Crisis Commanders with their WS3+) being bad in combat, would lack meaningful synergy and game changing strategy - compared to ftgg and Tau's innate strong ranged weaponry. I think the proposed +1 to hit in combat for one battlesuit unit within 6" of your WL , has potentially stronger synergy as I'll breakdown at the end of my post. I know others have stated combat buffs are a bad idea (and I agree for most Tau units) but again, heroic intervention for all units within "6, technically pushes Tau units into combat anyway.But overall I agree with the sentiment to not try to make particular Tau units what they're not . Enhanced their strengths e.g. Tau is good in shooting and overwatch. Make FSE Tau better at close-range shooting and overwatch compared to most other Tau septs.

 Eipi10 wrote:
Also, +1 to wound on the onager gauntlet? Are you trying to punch titans to death? +1 to hit and a the damage boost are probably enough. Then again there is probably a reason I have never seen it used so I don't know how strong (or weak) it normally is. But I can compare it to the Custodes Obliteratum, a similar S10 1 shot AT weapon, and it only gets d3 damage. It is also never used, so maybe it should be 2d3 or even 3d3 damage instead.

Not Titans, Leman Russ tanks on the other hand... Ive been thinking for a long while now, what rules would make the Onager Gauntlet reliably cripple a T8 W12 Leman Russ tank in one round of combat (i.e. 1A on WS3+). I didn't want to give the relic a base profile of something ridiculous like S14-16, but hoping with the 3+ to hit, and then 3+ to wound (targets with T6 or higher - which are most vehicles) on only one attack, then with hopefully a good D6 damage roll (the official damage rule) - clearly wasn't good enough for a relic that also costs you 1CP. BUT with +1 to hit and to wound against vehicles (aka Leman Russ tanks just like in the fluff)...the Onager Gauntlet is now hitting on 2s, wounding on 2's and statsically averaging around a little over 6 damage on a tank (3D3 Damage), knocking it down at least one damage bracket, if it wasn't damaged beforehand from any shooting. Not bad for a relic weapon designed to kill tanks in combat with only one attack? Worth the 1CP to include in your army now imo.

Now, about the potentially strong synergy of the proposed Tenet, WL Trait and Relics:

Tweaking the relic abilities + WL trait + Sept tenet, I think I came up with the perfect blend of rules to makes those legendary FSE heroes (the units with the best potential for combat) respectably strong in assault - not just compared to Tau, but across the other non-tau armies...they are now / should be strong. Not necessarily buffed Smash Captain, Abaddon, Swarmlord, or Guilliman combat monsters...but objectively, combat worthy strong!

So, to breakdown the FSE Trinity of combat heroes, who should actually be more than capable in combat with: Farsight's 6" re-roll 1s to hit in melee aura + re-roll 1s to wound Tenet buff + add 1 to hit in combat for one battlesuit unit within 6" of WL trait. You can potentially have:

- Farsight: WS2+ with four S8 AP-4 Dd3 attacks (re-roll 1s to hit and re-roll 1s to wound).
- Brightsword: WS3+ / WS2+* with two S8 AP-4 Dd6 attacks + two S5 AP0 D1 attacks (re-roll 1s to hit and re-roll 1s to wound).
- Bravestorm: WS3+ / WS2+** with one S10 S8 AP-4 D3d3 attack + three S5 AP0 D1 attacks (re-roll 1s to hit and re-roll 1s to wound).

* If you want to chose Brightsword for the +1 to hit melee buff from the WL trait.
** If you are chosing to attack a vehicle, or you instead chose Bravestorm for the +1 to hit melee buff from the WL trait.

^ That should reward any cunning FSE player who manages to deliver all 3 legendary heroes into the opponents lines and into combat, wthin 6" of each other.

I've italicized areas I'm especially replying to.

In my mind, the FSE in the presence of this warlord should all pile in to help defeat the threat with both melee and with shooting attacks, regardless of what they specialize in. I've outlined a proposal to shoot in melee (at the bottom of the post), but fall back and shoot might work better, maybe both. There are five rules going on here: reroll wound rolls in melee, shoot in melee, fall back and shoot, better melee, and heroic intervention. The last two could be part of this WL trait (+1 to hit in melee for 1 unit, and maybe not just battlesuits), the first two could be standard, and the middle one could be a stratagem.

Other armies pay 1 CP for very minor damage dealt to vehicles. There's the Custodes relic, Tesla's Skull, and a CSM relic all do basically squat. Your proposal is far out of proportion to similar relics. These relics do need a boost, but that's for another time. I think GW wants something like 1 CP for one guaranteed mortal wound, and the harder it is to deal wounds the more wounds you can do. You need to lose either the +1 to wound and +1 to hit (especially this, power fists should not give bonuses to hit) or go down to the highest of 2d6 damage (melta damage). That way you do an average 3 of dmg to a LR instead of 4, in between that and the previous 1.5 dmg.

Shovi wrote:I really like the idea of being able to shoot weapons in cc. Getting a second shooting phase with a unit is obviously very strong, so hittings at ws would make sense, which is essentially a -1 to hit so 5+ for most untis. Basically this abilty would be an elegant substitute to 5+ ftgg. Instead of getting to shoot in the enemies charge phase you get to do it in your turn and have more of a choice, however, it is limited to Tau units that actually make a charge. If it is stil considered too strong you could even limit the ability to the turn you charged or were charged and dedicated melee units would still kill you with ease if you do not manage to kill them first. With a rule like that, I would actually consider moving actively towards the enemy in some cases. Remember that charging with Tau means they expose themselves to counter charges and ofthen leave their drones behind that protect them too.

I like "chapter tactics" that influence your choices during list creation and during the game. Moving and advancing Tau would be quite a change, and force the Tau player and his enemy to think differently which is highly welcome.

I don't think this should be a standard ability for all septs. If Tau sept gets a second shooting phase when charged (I don't mind the 5+ ftgg), then FSE gets a second shooting phase when actually in melee. It would have to be tempered to not just let all units shoot again on 6's (mathematically equivalent to a 5+ overwatch) because that would be rather strong for a unit that still doesn't want to get in melee, and thus a wasted ability. That's why I think combining a short-range reroll wound rolls of 1 with making a shooting attack with pistol-like restrictions activating on a melee hit roll of 6 is a good balance. It's like the skitarri vanguard's -1T aura, it's an insurance policy if you get into melee but not a rule you even want to build an army around. A MSU of FW gets 1 shooing attack off so 2/3 hits using the WS, plus the overwatch it's one hit fewer than a 5+ overwatch, but FSE get to reroll all wound rolls of 1 (even melee attacks) so it should balance out. Still, if this were added maybe the rerolls should be reduced to 9". This would give FSE the scions problem when mantastrikeing, but that's probably for the best considering all the rules they might get.

I don't think FSE should get a bonus to advancing. Maybe save that for another sept, say an FSE successor when Tau lore starts moving forward.

 Eipi10 wrote:

Waking Dreamer wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
Also, +1 to wound on the onager gauntlet? Are you trying to punch titans to death? +1 to hit and a the damage boost are probably enough. Then again there is probably a reason I have never seen it used so I don't know how strong (or weak) it normally is. But I can compare it to the Custodes Obliteratum, a similar S10 1 shot AT weapon, and it only gets d3 damage. It is also never used, so maybe it should be 2d3 or even 3d3 damage instead.

Not Titans, Leman Russ tanks on the other hand... Ive been thinking for a long while now, what rules would make the Onager Gauntlet reliably cripple a T8 W12 Leman Russ tank in one round of combat (i.e. 1A on WS3+). I didn't want to give the relic a base profile of something ridiculous like S14-16, but hoping with the 3+ to hit, and then 3+ to wound (targets with T6 or higher - which are most vehicles) on only one attack, then with hopefully a good D6 damage roll (the official damage rule) - clearly wasn't good enough for a relic that also costs you 1CP. BUT with +1 to hit and to wound against vehicles (aka Leman Russ tanks just like in the fluff)...the Onager Gauntlet is now hitting on 2s, wounding on 2's and statsically averaging rolls of 6 damage on a tank (3D3 Damage), before saves. Knocking it down at least one damage bracket, if it wasn't damaged beforehand from any shooting. Not bad for a relic weapon designed to kill tanks in combat with only one attack? Worth the 1CP to include in your army now imo.

Other armies pay 1 CP for very minor damage dealt to vehicles. There's the Custodes relic, Tesla's Skull, and a CSM relic all do basically squat. Your proposal is far out of proportion to similar relics. These relics do need a boost, but that's for another time. I think GW wants something like 1 CP for one guaranteed mortal wound, and the harder it is to deal wounds the more wounds you can do. You need to lose either the +1 to wound and +1 to hit (especially this, power fists should not give bonuses to hit) or go down to the highest of 2d6 damage (melta damage). That way you do an average 3 of dmg to a LR instead of 4, in between that and the previous 1.5 dmg.

I agree those other relics are bad, and that's why no one ever takes them. The Onager Gantlet's original rules is actually worse. I'm adjusting its rules so that its not in line with other bad relics but its in line with those confirmed good relics (competitive for those 2-3 relic slots in your army list), where you would not feel disappointed in taking it over some other army relic. Did you take into account with the other "anti-vehicle" relics that they have a range of up to 12" while the Onager is strictly melee? Currently the other relics trigger on a 2+ (Custodes BS2+), where the Crisis Commander base profile is WS3+ which this 1 attack Gauntlet would otherwise solely rely upon?

I can see possibly reducing that damage profile to D6 damage (along with the melta rule/damage) or maybe have it D3+3 damage. Essentially, a one attack melee weapon that will roll 4-6 damage (never exceeding 6) in one round of combat. A non-buffed smash captain with a normal thunder hammer will be marginally out-damaged by the Gauntlet's average against vehicles (situational buff), however in turn the Gauntlet will be clearly out-damage by the thunder hammer captain against everything else (before any added SM buffs/relics).

I'm really liking the changes in the OP. Farsight Enclaves have always been seen as the Crisis Suite army and this change to 12" on the tenent really helps them, the current 6" range is worthless as you can't deep strike anywhere near that close and even with Mont'ka you can't move fast enough to get within range, whilst someone else suggesting a 9" range is just as useless because you deep strike outside of 9.

I'm iffy on the Warlord Trait, it works really well for Farsight and Commanders with the combat relics but is of little use outside of that, and given the restrictions on Commanders your only really going to see it get used with the Eight. Maybe changing it to a 6" move for the Warlord and any units within 6" at the end of the shooting phase to reflect the hit and run nature of Mant'ka, which the Farsight Enclaves specialise in.

Love the changes to the Onager Gauntlet. No one ever takes it because it's a single attack hitting on 3's and then completely random D6 damage (have fun with that 1), it's basically a Railhead in combat without the mortal wound potential, and no one takes Railgunes on Hammerheads because they have pathetic damage output. Your changes still feels like a fun relic rather than an auto take as it's still only 1 attack, but with a much higher chance of hitting and wounding with far more reliable damage output, but not enough to one shot a vehicle, just a fun way to finish off damaged ones.

I'm seeing a lot of suggestions for being able to shoot in combat, but no thanks. Tau Sept might be the most powerful option for Tau but they're also the least fun set up to play against, especially if you have any melee units in your army, because you've got multiple phases where you can shoot your opponent off the table, trying to make the Farsight Enclaves just as hated by giving them a similar buff probably isn't a good thing.