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Hey all, back with my take on what I assume is a fairly interesting and often talked about topic. Alternating Activation. I won't preamble too much but it's worth prefacing that I don't mind the IGOUGO system 40k has had for decades but my attention was piqued with a certain aspect of Apocalypse's rules and that was casualties being removed at the end of the turn. The main reason was largely due to me watching a battle report recently were a GK player brought a Land Raider but it was destroyed turn 1 without doing anything by Lascannon Havocs using VotlW + EC, it somehow didn't feel right to have such an iconic unit do absolutely NOTHING except make a hole in your roster and heart.

Therefore after a few days of cogitating this is my spin on a possible turn system for 40k, Alternating Phases.

First off, no such thing as 'Player Turns' just Battle Rounds 1 to 5 with rolling for 6 & 7 as normal and Seize the Initiative takes on a whole new meaning. Hold on it'll make sense when I run it down:

-Players roll off and deploy as normal.

-Once finished, Players take care of any pre-battle & before the turn admin

-Battle Round 1 starts. Players roll to "Seize the Initiative". The player that wins the roll gets 'Priority Activation'.

- Movement Phase. Player with Priority Activation gets to move/activate all the eligible units that they want to first and take care of any abilities done in this phase. Once completed, their opponent now gets to move with all their units, abilities etc.

-Psychic Phase, Shooting & Charge Phase. Rinse and repeat with one exception. Casualties are removed at the end of the Phase. Essentially, players will get to use the full potential of their units or whats left of it before it's wiped off the board. Personally I feel like this captivates the simultaneous and fluid nature of large-scale combat a lot better and naturally than what's currently in play and arguably more importantly this means that even if your precious Land Raider was obliterated it still has a chance to do something worthwhile whilst also not giving players too much bookkeeping to do by removing casualties at the end of the turn as opposed to the phase.

Naturally there are a few thing to note just to keep you on your toes and that's Mortal Wounds and Explosions. Whenever mortal wounds are inflicted on a unit those casualties, if any, are removed immediately except for Vehicles and Monsters. Vehicles are only removed instantly if they explode and the same goes for Monsters if they have a death throes otherwise they are removed at the end of the phase. Hopefully this represents the cinematic and often spectacular deaths of those models. Further units that have charged get a free 'Hammer of Wrath' attack (For each model in the unit that charged make an immediate S:User AP:0 D:1 attack against any of the units that you chose to charge within 1" of your unit).

-Fight Phase. Starting with the player with Priority Activation players select alternate selecting a unit to fight with until all eligible units have fought. I didn't really wanna change the Fight Phase too much as I believe it already represents what I was saying above sans the removal of casualties at the end of the phase. The Hammer of Wrath as described above is the 'reward' for units making the charge as opposed to a +1 attack of previous editions or having all charged units fight first.

-Morale Phase stays the same.

-Starting with the Player who didn't have Priority Activation alternate using any before turn abilities i.e. MWBD and Litanies.

-Battle Round 2 starts. Players roll to "Seize the Initiative". The player that wins the roll gets 'Priority Activation'. etc.

-Units that were damaged previously but not destroyed that have a damage table would use whatever track they were on after the seize rolls were made so all repairing and regenerating wounds would be done before along with MWBD and Litanies.


That's hopefully a concise enough summary of what I have in mind. Now, to address one thing right off the gate. No this doesn't mitigate Alpha striking. Whether because 8th is too deadly, defence is too poor or a mix of both this system change won't stop you getting gunned down by T'au shooting. What it will do though is give you the opportunity to actually play with your army in a meaningful manner despite of that.

Seize the Initiative is more thematically relevant as well as "Grand Strategist" characters and abilities. Nowadays in 8th there;s a multitude of Grand/Hyperlogical/Supreme strategists that all give some flavour of CP farming or bonus CP. To me that was boring so with seize rolls becoming more important and dictating the flow of the game every round there can be more variety of strategists and saboteurs. Units that can give you a +1 to your seize roll, maybe a re-roll, 2D6 pick the highest or even a -1 to your opponents which should help drastically differentiate all of these abilities and hopefully bring more flavour to the strategist archetype (Also helps power-scaling commanders as naturally Bobby G will offer both buffs to seizing and CP as opposed to a humble platoon commander)

What's the point of all this emphasis being place on seizing if players alternate activating and only remove casualties at the end of the phase? Cerebral Gameplay. Just kidding. Still going first in this instance most certainly matters as you'll always be the one to set the pace by moving and occupying board space first and shooting first to damage/kill an opponents unit and force them to act out of character, even screening in the charge phase to block your opponent from trying to counter against your premier combat unit by moving all your units first. All of this is much in the same way it is done now but knowing that you can't overextend yourself and not face immediate repercussions.

Those are my comprehensive 2 cents, what do you think?

I can see a couple problems with the alternating phases:

- The biggest one being the indirect nerf to melee. If I can move my shooty units away from your melee units in the first phase, I can keep you at arms length until shooting kills the squad. Plus, if a player has a melee skew then they're pretty much always going second, since shooting casualties are resolved before charging.

- Next is just the amount of time it will take. Passing turns over 6 times per round takes a while, and you have to save and resolve casualties several times.

- Try not to lose track of casualties. The more record keeping, the more tedious it becomes.

There might be more, but all I can say is that I tried Kill Team alt phases for 8th once and it was just really slow and had some bad quirks when it came to melee and fall back. So, I personally prefer unit by unit full activations (which I've done since)

But, my opinion isn't worth much. So just try it out yourself and see if it's fun (which is more important than tight rules for this kind of project).

One of your issues being Fall Back is a non-issue, because the rule as is needs to be changed heavily.

Interesting thoughts.

-Indirect nerf to melee. Well Falling back notwithstanding I have a few workarounds. Firstly charge ranges are a 6+D6" movement for all units with Fly being 9+D3" because for the love of the golden throne I have lamented the random 2D6 charge roll in it's entirety and I will continue to lament as long as it stays. Secondly I'd move advancing to the Shooting Phase, this in theory should the melee unit the oppurtunity to move based on how the opponent has previously even if they have second activation. E.g. if they move back or to the side, pressure with an advance or reveal a feint by moving to a different unit. Of course assault weapons still take the -1 and other weapons can't shoot but I believe like this even if the enemy advances away from you still you're most definately neutering their shoot and not allowing them to play their game.

-Time is a tricky one as the only real solution I can think of is to scale down the game, maybe 1500 to 1750 points becomes the new standard as opposed to 2000 which in turn should hopefully help with bookkeeping.

Adding patches to a problem mechanic is chasing symptoms. Cure the disease. Alternating phases doesnt work because of the reasons mentioned. Changing movement to be random doesnt fix that.

Melee moves first. My guys can SEE where they are and what they are trying to do. So i move a tank inbetween them and their desired target and then spend shooting phase just blasting them anyway. You cant put a band aid on that. Its inherent in the way the turn structure works.

Apoc works because the units get to do everything all at once on their activation. You cant break that up.

Others have covered my main points. If you want alternating activation, I've seen solid suggestions (some from Lance845) for variations on the following:

A.) Basically the Kill Team alternating activation system. Basically, take turns moving/charging/readying units, then take turns shooting units, then take turns fighting units. Readied units (meaning you hold still) shoot before unreadied units. Charging units fight before non-charging units. Turns take a while to resolve, but the downtime between player actions is next to nothing. Alpha strike isn't eliminated, but it is reduced. Unless I kill your land raider with my very first unit, you'll have the opportunity to shoot it at least once. This system can get wonky if there's a dramatic difference in the number of units on each side of the table though.

B.) Take turns activating units. When units activate, they basically do a full normal turn. So you'd pick a unit to move/cast/shoot/charge/fight with, and then I'd pick a unit to move/cast/shoot/charge/fight with. Once all units have been activated, the next game round begins. A lot of the same strengths and drawbacks as option A. No need to keep track of which units have already acted and which ones charged/readied. You do need to keep track of which units have activated though.

I'm not wild about waiting to remove casualties in general. It's good in apoc because the amount of firepower flying around could erase huge chunks of army before it gets to do anything. Basically, the same issue as in normal 40k but to a greater degree because the number of bullets flying is increased (despite the lower number of dice). In 40k, it adds bookkeeping, plus some units depend on being able to shut down enemy firepower to avoid reprisals. My dark eldar hit hard, but they're squishy. If they have to trade shots with an enemy that his similar firepower but more durability, then I'm at a disadvantage. The game would basically boil down to who has the best offense and durability for their points, more or less ignoring mobility

I've been experimenting with a system similar to Kill Team's but there's only one 'combat' phase in which units either shoot or fight. Alternating activations inherently take longer because of the need to prioritize which units you're activating and the need to keep everyone paying attention, engaged, and ready to pass priority; I find they're best when you cut down on how often you need to alternate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
... - The biggest one being the indirect nerf to melee. If I can move my shooty units away from your melee units in the first phase, I can keep you at arms length until shooting kills the squad. Plus, if a player has a melee skew then they're pretty much always going second, since shooting casualties are resolved before charging...

Pursuant to this: Keep in mind that in LotR (GW's alternating-phases game) ranged units get to move half speed only if they want to shoot at all (melee unit moves 6", ranged unit can either move 3" and fire or move 6" to play keep away), and ranged weapons tend to be a horribly inefficient way to actually kill anything (a Strength 2 bow, standard-issue in most human and orc armies, needs to roll a 6 followed by a 4 to damage the Gondorian shield-wall running at the archer).

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've been experimenting with a system similar to Kill Team's but there's only one 'combat' phase in which units either shoot or fight. Alternating activations inherently take longer because of the need to prioritize which units you're activating and the need to keep everyone paying attention, engaged, and ready to pass priority; I find they're best when you cut down on how often you need to alternate.

Neat. I'm sure I've asked this before, but how do you account for units that want to both shoot and fight? Shining spears, harlequin squads with fusion pistols, assault marines with flamers, and plenty of other units are designed to both shoot and punch in the same turn.

Pursuant to this: Keep in mind that in LotR (GW's alternating-phases game) ranged units get to move half speed only if they want to shoot at all (melee unit moves 6", ranged unit can either move 3" and fire or move 6" to play keep away), and ranged weapons tend to be a horribly inefficient way to actually kill anything (a Strength 2 bow, standard-issue in most human and orc armies, needs to roll a 6 followed by a 4 to damage the Gondorian shield-wall running at the archer).

From what I recall though, shooting is intentionally a very limited part of that game. Aren't there limits on the percentage of your army that's allowed to have a shooting attack in LotR? I'm all for energy swords and alien claws being a big part of 40k, but missile launchers and alien laser guns probably shouldn't feel "horribly inefficient" next to combat knives and enthusiastic punching.

It seems like the core issue here is having to go second and losing a key unit that never got to do anything.

Why not just keep the phase as is. But, remove all casualties simultaneously. Just put a marker, dice, lay them on their side,etc... as they die in your opponents turn to notate that. Then when you go you still get to shoot with all your "dead" guys since its assumed both armies are fighting each other simultaneously.

This is sort of like the Imitative stat in prior editions (though that was melee based).

At the end of each Battle Round both players remove all dead models.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've been experimenting with a system similar to Kill Team's but there's only one 'combat' phase in which units either shoot or fight. Alternating activations inherently take longer because of the need to prioritize which units you're activating and the need to keep everyone paying attention, engaged, and ready to pass priority; I find they're best when you cut down on how often you need to alternate.

Neat. I'm sure I've asked this before, but how do you account for units that want to both shoot and fight? Shining spears, harlequin squads with fusion pistols, assault marines with flamers, and plenty of other units are designed to both shoot and punch in the same turn...

Allow melee attacks with those ranged weapons. Most things that are 'assault', 'grenade', or 'pistol' in 40k today are 'assault' and make melee attacks at no penalty, heavier infantry weapons make melee attacks at -1.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've been experimenting with a system similar to Kill Team's but there's only one 'combat' phase in which units either shoot or fight. Alternating activations inherently take longer because of the need to prioritize which units you're activating and the need to keep everyone paying attention, engaged, and ready to pass priority; I find they're best when you cut down on how often you need to alternate.

Neat. I'm sure I've asked this before, but how do you account for units that want to both shoot and fight? Shining spears, harlequin squads with fusion pistols, assault marines with flamers, and plenty of other units are designed to both shoot and punch in the same turn.

Pursuant to this: Keep in mind that in LotR (GW's alternating-phases game) ranged units get to move half speed only if they want to shoot at all (melee unit moves 6", ranged unit can either move 3" and fire or move 6" to play keep away), and ranged weapons tend to be a horribly inefficient way to actually kill anything (a Strength 2 bow, standard-issue in most human and orc armies, needs to roll a 6 followed by a 4 to damage the Gondorian shield-wall running at the archer).

From what I recall though, shooting is intentionally a very limited part of that game. Aren't there limits on the percentage of your army that's allowed to have a shooting attack in LotR? I'm all for energy swords and alien claws being a big part of 40k, but missile launchers and alien laser guns probably shouldn't feel "horribly inefficient" next to combat knives and enthusiastic punching.

That would be an issue just for those Assaulting units with Rapid Fire or Heavy Weapons then?

End-of-phase removal has some nasty implications.

Imagine a glass cannon CC unit. It's balanced around hitting really hard, but no real defenses. The goal is to get it in and get it to hit first.

With end-of-phase removals, you charge said unit in, it fights and kills guys, then what it kills turns around and kills it.

Alternately, consider a beefy unit that's not too killy, but is hard to kill. It's going to have the same exact rebuttle in combat as a paper-thin target.

So, conceptually, letting units pay more for higher attack than defense (or vice versa) becomes bad. Higher attack or defense at the expense of the other is a *strong negative*. Balanced stats simply do better. End-of-phase casaulty removal makes both glass cannon and super durable poor trades.



For ranged, consider a fast fragile ambushing shotgunners. If it gets caught in a firefight at range, it's doomed. It makes up for that by being deadlier. So you try to only hit units once you get in range. In most rulesets, you'd look to oneround the target, so you don't get pasted. With end-of-phase removal, if you play perfectly, you ambush the target and kill them before they can shoot. Only for them to turn around and kill you anyways. There's no way to actually win an engagement that you couldn't win face-to-face.

I think end-of-phase removal makes the game worse.