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As the title suggests, how good are Land Speeders/Land Speeder Storms? What are their exact functions?

They are useless because of poor internal and external balance. Also their design lacks purpose in 8th ed. They're just a cool model.

Cheap fast mobile firepower. 2e - present, I've always used mine to dash off & claim objectives & to root out things hiding in the enemies backfield. You know, mortars, heavy weapon squads, etc.

The issue with them now as opposed to some past editions though is they suffer penalties to hit with moving which is pretty dumb for a unit that should be moving all the time.

Some fast units, or should be mobile units suffer from that now. Land speeders are one, Sentinels another.

They fold like a wet paper towel. Far too fragile for their cost, and the mobility is somewhat wasted due to all their weapons being Heavy.

If you really want to run speeders, play Dark Angels and take Sammael with Talonmaster. They get character protection and double the weapons, plus are pretty good in melee and give each other re-roll to hit/wound.

They're a lot better under UM and IH that anyone else (so far) at sniping back-field support units, but a single Attack Bike does the job almost as well for half the points and a Whirlwind does the same job from a much safer position. The only layout that does something unique is the dual Heavy Flamers, and I'm not sure why you'd do that.

The Storm has transport capability, but naturally it's for a unit with Advanced Deploy that doesn't need it.

The Newman wrote:
They're a lot better under UM and IH that anyone else (so far) at sniping back-field support units, but a single Attack Bike does the job almost as well for half the points and a Whirlwind does the same job from a much safer position. The only layout that does something unique is the dual Heavy Flamers, and I'm not sure why you'd do that.

The Storm has transport capability, but naturally it's for a unit with Advanced Deploy that doesn't need it.

The Storm wasn't without purpose before though. Being able to get a Multi-Melta, leap out with a Combi-Melta, and charge into a vehicle with a Melta Bomb was basically a guarantee of killing a vehicle (well sometimes) well over the price point you'd pay for the unit.

Now I don't think you can even shoot out of the Storm, which really sucks because how COOL would it be to be zooming with Shotgun Scouts? Also the Launcher failing to give a Blind equivalent this edition is pretty lame too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Newman wrote:
They're a lot better under UM and IH that anyone else (so far) at sniping back-field support units, but a single Attack Bike does the job almost as well for half the points and a Whirlwind does the same job from a much safer position. The only layout that does something unique is the dual Heavy Flamers, and I'm not sure why you'd do that.

The Storm has transport capability, but naturally it's for a unit with Advanced Deploy that doesn't need it.

The Storm wasn't without purpose before though. Being able to get a Multi-Melta, leap out with a Combi-Melta, and charge into a vehicle with a Melta Bomb was basically a guarantee of killing a vehicle (well sometimes) well over the price point you'd pay for the unit.

Now I don't think you can even shoot out of the Storm, which really sucks because how COOL would it be to be zooming with Shotgun Scouts? Also the Launcher failing to give a Blind equivalent this edition is pretty lame too.

Storms are still open topped. They're still outlcassed by Warriors in Venoms, but you can do some fun stuff with em.

...hadn't thought of that, it does have a certain amount of potential doesn't it.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The issue with them now as opposed to some past editions though is they suffer penalties to hit with moving which is pretty dumb for a unit that should be moving all the time.

Some fast units, or should be mobile units suffer from that now. Land speeders are one, Sentinels another.

Wrong. IH land speeders dont suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, and they get to re-roll 1s, when shooting with a heavy weapon, when the devastator doctrine is active. Any other chapter can use twin heavy flamers and auto hit, ignoring the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. A successor chapter can use long range marksmen to increase flamer range to 11". Use a unit of 3 models to increase the movement to 20". Use them as a successor chapter and give them twin HB with long range marksmen, and bolter fusillades, that 39" range, re-rolling 1s to hit. Leave them in cover, standing still, and shoot away. I wouldnt use any other weapon except flamers and HB, because those are to expensive.

I’ll be testing an Iron Hands 7 Land Speeder Storm list, filled with sniper scouts backed up by 3 hunters and 3 tech marines with Conversion Beamers. In a bubble with a smash capt, 2 chaplains a Libby and the new Iron Father.

The list doesn’t suffer from moving heavy weapons. Stay in dev doctrine for -1 ap. Unit is 3+5++ near Iron man. Tech marines and IM repair well. Libby also can repair. Relic with minus damage.


Will it be super competitive ., dunno but it sounds fun

Agreed, Landspeeders, Eldar Vypers and similar floating gun boats (not tanks) should 100% ignore the -1 to hit for moving.
Dark Eldar actually have a pretty good solution to this: they treat Heavy as Assault.

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 Galef wrote:
Agreed, Landspeeders, Eldar Vypers and similar floating gun boats (not tanks) should 100% ignore the -1 to hit for moving.
Dark Eldar actually have a pretty good solution to this: they treat Heavy as Assault.

-

Remake some of the core USRs for the game like Relentless as many units where designed around the concept.

Sallies will be giving +1 to wound to flamer and melta weapons. I'm sure you could come up with some interesting deployments now that multi-meltas are 22 points, heavy flamers are 14, and speeders are 45.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The issue with them now as opposed to some past editions though is they suffer penalties to hit with moving which is pretty dumb for a unit that should be moving all the time.

Some fast units, or should be mobile units suffer from that now. Land speeders are one, Sentinels another.

(shrugs)
1) Other than rolling high, I can't do anything about that except try & convince an opponent to play by house rules/wait for GW to change it.
2) Meanwhile I'm not going to stop using my speeders


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Storms are still open topped. They're still outlcassed by Warriors in Venoms, but you can do some fun stuff with em.

Last I checked my codex doesn't have that option.

ccs wrote:


Last I checked my codex doesn't have that option.

The Newman wrote:
...hadn't thought of that, it does have a certain amount of potential doesn't it.

Like what ?

 godardc wrote:

The Newman wrote:
...hadn't thought of that, it does have a certain amount of potential doesn't it.

Like what ?

5 sniper rifles that you have to destroy a light vehicle to get to..?

Yeah I'm not sure there's anything earth shattering you can do with this!

 p5freak wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The issue with them now as opposed to some past editions though is they suffer penalties to hit with moving which is pretty dumb for a unit that should be moving all the time.

Some fast units, or should be mobile units suffer from that now. Land speeders are one, Sentinels another.

Wrong. IH land speeders dont suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, and they get to re-roll 1s, when shooting with a heavy weapon, when the devastator doctrine is active. Any other chapter can use twin heavy flamers and auto hit, ignoring the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. A successor chapter can use long range marksmen to increase flamer range to 11". Use a unit of 3 models to increase the movement to 20". Use them as a successor chapter and give them twin HB with long range marksmen, and bolter fusillades, that 39" range, re-rolling 1s to hit. Leave them in cover, standing still, and shoot away. I wouldnt use any other weapon except flamers and HB, because those are to expensive.

Ok, calm down captain crunch. I did say in an over all sense, land speeders lost that this edition. Just because one codex supplement gives that back to land speeders doesn't mean it wasn't taken away to begin with which is dumb, and sentinels still don't have it which is also dumb, and before you have to quote me with another " I gotcha! " moment, yes talarn trait can let them move and shoot. However, scouting/mobile firing platforms shouldn't need to be one flavor of marine or guard just to do the role they have traditionally always had and their purpose in the list in general.

Though I'm sure it felt so good to try and point that out, honestly any one who has been keeping up would know the IH can move and shoot heavies fine. Which leads to some odd synergy as I don't get why the fast moving strike force marines can't do that.

 p5freak wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The issue with them now as opposed to some past editions though is they suffer penalties to hit with moving which is pretty dumb for a unit that should be moving all the time.

Some fast units, or should be mobile units suffer from that now. Land speeders are one, Sentinels another.

Wrong. IH land speeders dont suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, and they get to re-roll 1s, when shooting with a heavy weapon, when the devastator doctrine is active. Any other chapter can use twin heavy flamers and auto hit, ignoring the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. A successor chapter can use long range marksmen to increase flamer range to 11". Use a unit of 3 models to increase the movement to 20". Use them as a successor chapter and give them twin HB with long range marksmen, and bolter fusillades, that 39" range, re-rolling 1s to hit. Leave them in cover, standing still, and shoot away. I wouldnt use any other weapon except flamers and HB, because those are to expensive.

Twin Heavy Flamers is an Index-only option.

All Space Marine Codex chapters can put Big Guns Never Tire on a Land Speeder unit, and every model can ignore the -1 from moving, which is nice for 1CP.

 Stux wrote:

 godardc wrote:

The Newman wrote:
...hadn't thought of that, it does have a certain amount of potential doesn't it.

Like what ?

5 sniper rifles that you have to destroy a light vehicle to get to..?

Yeah I'm not sure there's anything earth shattering you can do with this!

It's not really, it's just the potential to throw 19 S5-6 shots (and d6 S4s) that your opponent sort of has to kill twice. 150 is probably too many points to invest for what you're getting most of the time though.

You know the more I think about it, 87 points for 2 Krak Missiles and 3 Heavy Bolter shots ain't too bad. If they could be brought in from reserves like they used to do, they'd be pretty good.

I feel like many units just got hit hard with core rule changes and the designers just couldn't be bothered to try and think of a way for them to feel viable. Land speeders are one of those units. Every unit these days has a zillion bespoke rules yet these aged units, that have been with us forever, are just questionably expensive, mobile but poor hitting fire platforms.

I mean would it kill them to give them like a stable firing platform rule ? Even if they limited the movement a little make it avoid the negative that would be great. Ways without needing to use strats for it, or play IH, same goes for most of those kinds of units that a few books had. As I used to love Sentinels and Speeders but now they are mostly stationary gun stations which feels really counter intuitive to their use.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The issue with them now as opposed to some past editions though is they suffer penalties to hit with moving which is pretty dumb for a unit that should be moving all the time.

Some fast units, or should be mobile units suffer from that now. Land speeders are one, Sentinels another.

Wrong. IH land speeders dont suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, and they get to re-roll 1s, when shooting with a heavy weapon, when the devastator doctrine is active. Any other chapter can use twin heavy flamers and auto hit, ignoring the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. A successor chapter can use long range marksmen to increase flamer range to 11". Use a unit of 3 models to increase the movement to 20". Use them as a successor chapter and give them twin HB with long range marksmen, and bolter fusillades, that 39" range, re-rolling 1s to hit. Leave them in cover, standing still, and shoot away. I wouldnt use any other weapon except flamers and HB, because those are to expensive.

Twin Heavy Flamers is an Index-only option.

All Space Marine Codex chapters can put Big Guns Never Tire on a Land Speeder unit, and every model can ignore the -1 from moving, which is nice for 1CP.

Which is still an option until it isn't. Can people stop pretending that it's not legal to use these units and if you have a gaming group that will except them, they will be going forward

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ccs wrote:


Last I checked my codex doesn't have that option.

That doesn't look like the data sheet for a venom.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I feel like many units just got hit hard with core rule changes and the designers just couldn't be bothered to try and think of a way for them to feel viable. Land speeders are one of those units. Every unit these days has a zillion bespoke rules yet these aged units, that have been with us forever, are just questionably expensive, mobile but poor hitting fire platforms.

I mean would it kill them to give them like a stable firing platform rule ? Even if they limited the movement a little make it avoid the negative that would be great. Ways without needing to use strats for it, or play IH, same goes for most of those kinds of units that a few books had. As I used to love Sentinels and Speeders but now they are mostly stationary gun stations which feels really counter intuitive to their use.

They already have something like a stable firing platform rule, which is big guns never tire for 1 CP. Which has already been mentioned here.

 p5freak wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I feel like many units just got hit hard with core rule changes and the designers just couldn't be bothered to try and think of a way for them to feel viable. Land speeders are one of those units. Every unit these days has a zillion bespoke rules yet these aged units, that have been with us forever, are just questionably expensive, mobile but poor hitting fire platforms.

I mean would it kill them to give them like a stable firing platform rule ? Even if they limited the movement a little make it avoid the negative that would be great. Ways without needing to use strats for it, or play IH, same goes for most of those kinds of units that a few books had. As I used to love Sentinels and Speeders but now they are mostly stationary gun stations which feels really counter intuitive to their use.

They already have something like a stable firing platform rule, which is big guns never tire for 1 CP. Which has already been mentioned here.

That solution is idiotic. It's not ridiculous to expect a vehicle to move and shoot accurately and they should be able to. Stratagems are not giving that.

 p5freak wrote:

They already have something like a stable firing platform rule, which is big guns never tire for 1 CP. Which has already been mentioned here.

It has two mediocre guns. This is not good use of CP or even that stratagem. People always talk about stratagems like CP was infinite. Now that you can't reasonably ally an IG CP battery, it isn't any more.

ccs wrote:

That doesn't look like the data sheet for a venom.

My bad - confused which you were referring to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

That solution is idiotic. It's not ridiculous to expect a vehicle to move and shoot accurately and they should be able to. Stratagems are not giving that.

It's literally a marine with a heavy weapon moving even faster than usual. Nothing about it being a vehicle applies to "real life" logic.

 Insectum7 wrote:
You know the more I think about it, 87 points for 2 Krak Missiles and 3 Heavy Bolter shots ain't too bad. If they could be brought in from reserves like they used to do, they'd be pretty good.

White Scars have a strat for that.