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How do?

Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.

What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.

Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.

Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.

They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.

Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.

Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.

Zoanthropes spring to mind. They used to be Nid's most reliable ranged anti-tank weapon with like Lance, S10 and like AP2 or something they could pop open a land raider with relative ease. Now they just sputter put a couple of mortal wounds a turn.

Lots of DE units....... For example Reavers use to be fast units that never got into combat unless they had to, you just Fly By and dealt damage, they were basically harasser units, now they are str4 -1ap instead of D6 S6 and D3 S6 drive by hits.

Why did it change? No one knows, GW just hates DE.

Trueborn: used to be the elite version of Dark Eldar warriors, similar to a Wolf Guard/Chosen/Veterans/whatever where you build all the special weapons in a kit to make a more elite version of a unit.

Now they're busy not...doing that....because they aren't a thing anymore for no reason despite all the other armies not losing those kinds of units.

Harlequin jetbikes used to either be a fast antielite melee unit or a sort of wham-bam alpha strike unit where you took all the star bolas and got a single use super powerful attack.

Then, GW made those weapons the Grenade type, meaning there's a weapon you can take on all models in the box...that only one model can use in the unit...feth those of us who made a 4-man squad with star bolas I guess!

Every medium walker in the game used to be kind of a midrange shooting threat/late game melee threat that would walk to about 24" firing weapons like shuriken cannons, assault cannons, rokkit launchas, etc. Then, the game got so laughably deadly that the simple idea of any unit being able to survive until turn 3 became a distant, fond memory, and every Deff Dread/Wraithlord/Killa Kan/Dreadnought with one gun got returned to the shelf to collect dust.

Psykers used to be a flexible support/offense unit, where they could use their power options to fulfil a variety of roles. They used to be allowed to be anti-horde, anti-elite, anti-tank, or buff/debuff based, but generally were not better than a specialist unit with a fixed role at that job. Now, psychic powers must be either buffs/debuffs or only anti-elite, because for some reason in a game where charging anything into melee combat requires seventeen distinct movements and dice rolling steps, "mind bullets working like regular bullets" was just too complicated.

Ork Boyz used to be a slow moving melee horde. Now they are incapable of performing that role because weapons exist that remove 40 models costing over 100 USD from the board in a single turn. Now they are a deep striking suicide horde unit for some reason.

Come to think of it, lots of units are now deep striking suicide guys now.

Eldar Guardians
Deathwatch Veterans/smallmarines in general
Genestealers/GSC
Thousand Sons
huge blobs of kabalite warriors

Why do all these things that didn't have deep strike now deep strike and suicide instead of move around on the board while trying to do stuff?

Cryptek, when it was introduced it had five disciplines to choose from, each with its own wargear and weapons, altering Crypteks use. Long ranged Tremorstave made hit units treat open ground as difficult terrain, Abyssal staff was a flamer that rolled to Wound againts Ld, ect. Making it feel like a techno-wizard.

Now you get a buff and choice between a looted KFF or a jump pack.

Windriders have lost their role as a CORE unit for Saim-Hann armies, since you can't really be a core unit while not being Troops.
Don't get me wrong, I love all the changes they've made to Windriders since 7E, EXCEPT not being Troops. While you COULD still have a list filled with Windriders in Outrider Detachment, you basically get no CPs for doing so. You end up being required to take at least 1 Battalion, making some other Troop the real CORE of the list.

Even worse, as Fast Attack they have even LESS purpose since Spears and Vypers can do what WRs can + more or better

-

Tyranid Genestealers - but now they're back! Genestealers were frightening in 3rd because they had power weapons. They got changed to Rending, but 3rd ed. rending was fantastic, and a squad of Genestealers could still kill a Land Raider just by scratching it to death (each hit roll of 6 was auto-wounding and bypassed armor, or was a "glancing hit" on a vehicle - pile up a dozen of those and a vehicle was generally toast). Vehicles only got tougher from then, and Rending only got worse. Genestealers got less and less expensive, but kept losing things that made them good. What changed to make Genestealers bad, but then has changed to make them good again? The thing that made them bad was that they lost lethality, got slower compared to other forces and to other units within the Tyranid codex itself, and opponents both got tougher (Knights, Flyers, Riptides, Wave Serpents) and faster. Why are Genestealers back? 8th was kind enough to make Genestealers very very fast. They gained some lethality too, but mostly it's their speed that makes them an asset. So, to sum up, they lost their role of being blenders, but have gained a new role of being true terror troops.

Chaos Possessed - I remember people talking about these guys being nuts, but it was 3.5 edition Chaos Codex, so everything for them was. What changed? Well, their mutations lost the selectability, and even the best results are neutered compared to before. Ultimately, they became a unit that did less than the basic guys, and they're supposed to be better than the basic guys.

I feel a lot of it has to do with how editions changed the mechanics of the game. Units where designed during a specific edition and when the edition changed and rules shifted those units were stuck in time because the game very rarely did anything to correct those units.

8th has done the most to try and address things since the drastic changes of RT to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd, but even then it hasn't reallyshown an effort to bring those units in line with the rest of the game.

Imperial Guard conscripts used to be good at drowning the enemy in bodies, back when they were 3 pts each while regular guardsmen were 5 pts. Now conscripts are 4 pts, the same price as guardsmen (which is just... baffling); their minimum unit size is still 20, in an edition where large units are less advantageous, while their maximum unit size has been brought down from 50 to 30; and they can no longer be made Fearless by adding a priest to their unit. There is no reason whatsoever to take them over regular guardsmen!

Imperial Guard Chimeras are now pretty useless too. You cannot shoot your special or heavy weapons out of them, and your units are not really worth transporting. My four Chimeras have been gathering dust since the start of this edition.

I would add the Vendetta gunship (now a Forge World exclusive) to the lot. Counting the cost of the three twin lascannons, my faithful old gunship is now monstrously overpriced, especially in an edition where even vehicles suffer hit penalties when shooting with heavy weapons after moving.


I've seen the argument that Fast Attack units in general have lost a lot of their usefulness, given that vehicles no longer have facings.

.

 Stormonu wrote:
Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.

Yea they're not a problem with the new supplements. You're quite likely to see them more.

Ohh Boi, here we go:


CSM:

Chaos Space marines:


Cultists:


Raptors:


Chosen:


Noise marines:


Hellturkey:


Forgiefiend:


Lord discordant:



And now R&H version.

Commander:


Malefic Lord:


Militia:


Renegade Cultists:


Mutants:


R&H Chaos Spawn:


Disciples:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do?

Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.

What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.

Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.

Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.

They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.

Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.

Terminators really aren't a good example because only the particular Chaos ones were any good.

The real best example is Ogryns. They weren't even that good at their designated role, and Bullgryns pushed them out even further.

In order to adjust for deathstars in previous editions and flyers, super-heavy, rerollable X and Y in all editions since 6th, the game scaled up to the point that any subtlety is lost.
Since 6th edition, possibly since 5th, WH40k is essentially a continuous cycle of a clumsy design team endlessly painting themselves into a corner, if one is magnanimous and wants to see no malice.
The new smart-but-not-actually-smart design paradigm demands the use of characters that grant pedestrian buffs and pre-made combos. Such combos grant deadly outputs to already overpowered weapons with great rate of fire and strength. This demands either hordes over hordes, often with some ludicrous mobility gimmick (sounds familiar, ork players) or stacked resilience rules.
To this, add any lack of vision and restraint, to the point that a rule granted to an army in order to make it barely functional is assigned to the new pet-army of the designer that is currently the loudest rooster singing in the team, or something.
There is no space for boyz in transports, aspects, or slightly more specialized units based on generalists in this nightmare.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ohh Boi, here we go:


CSM:

Chaos Space marines:

Spoiler:

Yeah, Votwl my ass. Paying more for SM tac, gaining no abilities (ATSNKF,Doctrines,etc) They lost Marks, they lost icons. Respectively the icons are not worth it beeing so bad and or only usefull for specific units.
Not only that but once upon a time the basic murderhobo that is a chaos space marine had FULL equipment, as in BOLTER; BOLTPISTOL AND CHAINSWORD. This was supposed to be the trade off between SM and CSM. Now nothing, a pitifull unit showing the state of the whole codex in a nutshell.

Cultists:

Spoiler:

Paying more then a guardsmen for the privilege of worse morale, worse equipment, having no acess to traits anymore. Nough said?

Raptors:

Spoiler:

Like with basic CSM compared to SM equivalent, payimg more for less. Does not work.

Chosen:

Spoiler:

A 1W supposedly elite choice, costing more, gaining one A and. That's it. It0s a bad unit, that has no niche, can do nothing good and requires alot ALOT more points to achieve a similar result then other options in the dex.
Add in the issues of no specialisation like with CSM and you get the perfect gak unit. Only saving grace, you can give them a BOLTGUN AND CHAINSWORD, HIP HIP HURAY GW. HIP HIP HURAY.

Noise marines:

Spoiler:

Sonic blasters don't get effected by bolter drill. Overpricced as they allready are like most one W 1 marines. probably the single worst cultmarine.

Hellturkey:

Spoiler:

Once the terror of the sky, now the laughing stock. Overpriced, bad even in melee, generating no -1 to hit against it, even though it is faster then alot of flyers that get that benefit. The flamer is an overpriced piece of equipment and the Hades autocannon is stuck on a plattform that can't get use out of it.

Forgiefiend:

Spoiler:

A shooty daemonengine, paying for having BS3+, oh actually it doesn't. Still pays as if.

Lord discordant:

Spoiler:

Okay, the LOD is allright, however he is targetable, has T6. AND FAILS AT IT?S INTENDED BLOODY JOB, making daemonengines dakka viable. Ha can't do that.
Infact WTF did GW not just give his +1 to hit to a BLOODY WARPSMITH? Also, why can't he repair even though he is a warpsmith?
He is good, because he is relatively cheap melee monster in an army that can fling stuff. He is bad because the BASIC CONCEPT AND DESIGN of him FAILED.

And now R&H version.

Commander:

Spoiler:

No demagogue options anymore, grants covenants instead, army wide. Did we mention they suck utterly?

Malefic Lord:

Spoiler:

Like cultists, except got the banhammer right into the crown jewels. Also their IG equivalent is fine at 40 pts?!? HOW COME GW?

Militia:

Spoiler:

R&H were once defined by this troop choice, because it was adaptable, and priced good, in an edition were troops mostly sucked and required instead slot fillers from troopified FA /Elite units, these gems shone brightly.
Priced at 3PPM and with a capability to match that, they were trainable, equipable, moldable by demagogue devotion and could just as easily be turned into a bunch of servitors, as they could represent fanatic crusaders for the gory of chaos as they could represent trained units.
Now, they cost 4 ppm for beeing worse then a conscript. Yes WORSE then a conscript. No more adaptability aswell, no more backbone.
Literally ALL R&H player used that troop unit voluntarily in an edition were you avoided them like the plague, now they get maybee fielded as the cheap illoyal 32 MAYBEE, if you feel like you want an ACIVE 170 pts handicap.
And you wonder why R&H players are bitter?

Renegade Cultists:

Spoiler:

Imagine CSM cultists, but worse. Somehow. Great init?

Mutants:

Spoiler:

the new mutation table is suicidal, sucks and the equipment sucks even more. Also the OG carrier of stubpistols, which are s3 d1 Range 6", how the feth the kellermorphs one work is beyond me.

R&H Chaos Spawn:

Spoiler:

Chaos spawn, except 33 pts instead of 25.

Disciples:

Spoiler:

Veterans, paying 20 % more, for less access to equipment. Atleast they don't get crippled from Random LD as the rest of the book.

I think CSMs could be fixed with a CA points update, and damn well should be. I do agree losing the chainsword is annoying as hell. but apparently chaos marines can't be as cool as grey hunters :(

Pretty much anything mid-range, so Speeders, non-Dread Walkers, heck even bikes are a bit iffy with so many 2 or d3 weapons, likewise non-SS Termies

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ohh Boi, here we go:


CSM:

Chaos Space marines:

Spoiler:

Yeah, Votwl my ass. Paying more for SM tac, gaining no abilities (ATSNKF,Doctrines,etc) They lost Marks, they lost icons. Respectively the icons are not worth it beeing so bad and or only usefull for specific units.
Not only that but once upon a time the basic murderhobo that is a chaos space marine had FULL equipment, as in BOLTER; BOLTPISTOL AND CHAINSWORD. This was supposed to be the trade off between SM and CSM. Now nothing, a pitifull unit showing the state of the whole codex in a nutshell.

Cultists:

Spoiler:

Paying more then a guardsmen for the privilege of worse morale, worse equipment, having no acess to traits anymore. Nough said?

Raptors:

Spoiler:

Like with basic CSM compared to SM equivalent, payimg more for less. Does not work.

Chosen:

Spoiler:

A 1W supposedly elite choice, costing more, gaining one A and. That's it. It0s a bad unit, that has no niche, can do nothing good and requires alot ALOT more points to achieve a similar result then other options in the dex.
Add in the issues of no specialisation like with CSM and you get the perfect gak unit. Only saving grace, you can give them a BOLTGUN AND CHAINSWORD, HIP HIP HURAY GW. HIP HIP HURAY.

Noise marines:

Spoiler:

Sonic blasters don't get effected by bolter drill. Overpricced as they allready are like most one W 1 marines. probably the single worst cultmarine.

Hellturkey:

Spoiler:

Once the terror of the sky, now the laughing stock. Overpriced, bad even in melee, generating no -1 to hit against it, even though it is faster then alot of flyers that get that benefit. The flamer is an overpriced piece of equipment and the Hades autocannon is stuck on a plattform that can't get use out of it.

Forgiefiend:

Spoiler:

A shooty daemonengine, paying for having BS3+, oh actually it doesn't. Still pays as if.

Lord discordant:

Spoiler:

Okay, the LOD is allright, however he is targetable, has T6. AND FAILS AT IT?S INTENDED BLOODY JOB, making daemonengines dakka viable. Ha can't do that.
Infact WTF did GW not just give his +1 to hit to a BLOODY WARPSMITH? Also, why can't he repair even though he is a warpsmith?
He is good, because he is relatively cheap melee monster in an army that can fling stuff. He is bad because the BASIC CONCEPT AND DESIGN of him FAILED.

And now R&H version.

Commander:

Spoiler:

No demagogue options anymore, grants covenants instead, army wide. Did we mention they suck utterly?

Malefic Lord:

Spoiler:

Like cultists, except got the banhammer right into the crown jewels. Also their IG equivalent is fine at 40 pts?!? HOW COME GW?

Militia:

Spoiler:

R&H were once defined by this troop choice, because it was adaptable, and priced good, in an edition were troops mostly sucked and required instead slot fillers from troopified FA /Elite units, these gems shone brightly.
Priced at 3PPM and with a capability to match that, they were trainable, equipable, moldable by demagogue devotion and could just as easily be turned into a bunch of servitors, as they could represent fanatic crusaders for the gory of chaos as they could represent trained units.
Now, they cost 4 ppm for beeing worse then a conscript. Yes WORSE then a conscript. No more adaptability aswell, no more backbone.
Literally ALL R&H player used that troop unit voluntarily in an edition were you avoided them like the plague, now they get maybee fielded as the cheap illoyal 32 MAYBEE, if you feel like you want an ACIVE 170 pts handicap.
And you wonder why R&H players are bitter?

Renegade Cultists:

Spoiler:

Imagine CSM cultists, but worse. Somehow. Great init?

Mutants:

Spoiler:

the new mutation table is suicidal, sucks and the equipment sucks even more. Also the OG carrier of stubpistols, which are s3 d1 Range 6", how the feth the kellermorphs one work is beyond me.

R&H Chaos Spawn:

Spoiler:

Chaos spawn, except 33 pts instead of 25.

Disciples:

Spoiler:

Veterans, paying 20 % more, for less access to equipment. Atleast they don't get crippled from Random LD as the rest of the book.

I think CSMs could be fixed with a CA points update, and damn well should be. I do agree losing the chainsword is annoying as hell. but apparently chaos marines can't be as cool as grey hunters :(

Nope, a price fix ain't doing anything.
Else you would need to price a csm at 10 pts.
Quite literally because he is baseline without traits even taken into consideration worse then a tac.
And has no acess to ap -1 etc.

And a race to the bottom isn' t funny at all.

Assault Marines, for sure. Land Speeders and Vypers as well. They SHOULD be mobile fire support, but thanks to 8th rules and GW design philosophy generally, they usually die soon after bringing their guns into range. AND these supposedly fast, mobile units often suffer a to-hit penalty for.............................. MOVING.....

I'd be fine with CSMs reduced to the cost of a tac marine AND given the ability to take chainswords AND boltguns. it'd not be perfect but I'd accept that. but you're right that a race to the bottem isn't needed, CSMs need to be given some additional rules.

Lictors were once powerful and sneaky assassin units. Capable of hiding around the field, and depending on the edition either being very difficult to target, or being able to leap out of terrain right on top of an enemy unit (or both!).
Every edition has made them slightly weaker than the one before.

Now they have limp-fisted melee attacks, often struggling even to kill a guard commander, let alone a space marine. Their sneaky deployment rules from previous editions are simply represented by a standard 9" deepstrike, with a re-roll to charge on the turn they arrive.

They've opted to keep reducing their points, rather than fix their rules. So these days the lictor merely serves occasionally as a cheap objective holder.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd be fine with CSMs reduced to the cost of a tac marine AND given the ability to take chainswords AND boltguns. it'd not be perfect but I'd accept that. but you're right that a race to the bottem isn't needed, CSMs need to be given some additional rules.

The issue i see with it is what would a Sisters player feel like?
And by consequence all other units.

And a race to the bottom ain't fun, especially not for the army that is supposed to have said bottom to work, like r&h did, which o wonder now doesn't work anymore Due to beeing to bad and not cheap enough comparativly.
Thanks gw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

They've opted to keep reducing their points, rather than fix their rules. So these days the lictor merely serves occasionally as a cheap objective holder.

And have they allready replaced other options in the codex by getting cheaper and cheaper?

See this is what i mean, ca is an excuse, "look we fixed gak", even though they didn't.
They didn't make a unit playable by nerfing it's in codex replacement.
They didn't fix the issue the unit has due to not fixing the concept.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do?

Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.

What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.

Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.

Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.

They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.

Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.

Terminators really aren't a good example because only the particular Chaos ones were any good.

I guess you missed 5th ed where everyone and their mum took TH/SS Termies...

Command Squads, both of the Space Marine and Sisters of Battle varieties. Protecting characters is barely necessary, all of the special minis that were once command-squad exclusive (standard bearers, medics, etc.) are now just Elite choice characters, so they just end up playing like more expensive Veteran-type units who aren't specialized enough to be useful.

So-far I agree with the list in regards to Space Marines:

1) Terminators
2) Assault Marines

Those stuck out the most in my mind.
I would submit #3:

#3) The SM skimmer.

Too many points and too fragile and they keep changing the allowable loadout.
I have shelved these guys for so long, maybe I can figure out something with the latest SM codex.

Skimmer with iron hands?
The ih trait would help alot due to reroll 1 and 6+++ so maybee that would work

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do?

Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.

What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.

Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.

Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.

They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.

Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.

Terminators really aren't a good example because only the particular Chaos ones were any good.

I guess you missed 5th ed where everyone and their mum took TH/SS Termies...

No, not everyone. They were mediocre at best so there ya go.

In terms of Guard...

Conscripts: Frankly, good riddance. I never liked the concept to begin with, and Infantry Squads fill the role nicely.

Veterans: Suffer from not being Scions with Deep Strike. Used to be point efficient to put them in a Chimera, where the speed and ability to use those concentrated special weapons was playable. Now, Chimera are too expensive, because Scions effectively get a free transport by deep striking, the 4+ save, and the ability to Deep Strike characters with them to issue orders. The unlikelihood of transports delivering cargo is a needless gamble while Scions exist.

Transports of all Kinds: Invalidated by Scion deep strike. For the cost of a transport, you can buy a second unit... that can also deep strike and be delivered *for certain*.

Ogryns: Invalidated by Bullgryns. If they had access to a longer range weapon (12” range, max) then having a softer, less punchier version would make sense... but once you’re within 12” you’d better be charging, so take Bullgryns.

Ratlings: I can’t really remember them ever being all that great... so they keep doing nothing.

Scout Sentinels: Outflanking heavy Weapons used to be good... but Deep Striking Scions are more reliable, points efficient, and generate more CP by being a Troop unit.

Armoured Sentinels: Used to be decent intercept units / tar pits, that also carried a heavy weapon to move with Russes. Infantry squads are more efficient and effective. In particular, the IS’s footprint makes for a better area denial. Also, by letting the Heavy weapon sit still, the rest of the squad can continue moving with the Tank, and your BS doesn’t suffer for moving that Model.

Platoon Commanders: Inefficient compared to Company Commanders.

Command Squads: inefficient compared to Deep Striking Scions.

Leman Russ - Non-HQ versions: The HQ versions have better BS, can issue buffs, and cost very little more. There’s no reason to take a Non-HQ version short of an unlikely shortage of HQ slots.


In essence, I find the IG codex to functionally be composed of Russ HQ’s, Company Commanders, Infantry Squads, Scions, Basilisks, and Manticores. (6 units) It’s not that you can’t use other units (I do all the time!) but from a strictly competitive standpoint these 6 units outclass all other units at a given role.

Depending on taste, support Characters like Commissars, Master of Ordnance, and Sargeant Harker are also taken. At 1500 points, I probably would spend about 100 points on these.

Mostly because Deep Striking Scions are more efficient and reliable than other codex options when it comes to mobility.

Arson Fire wrote:
They've opted to keep reducing their points, rather than fix their rules.

GW's entire 8th edition design philosophy in a nutshell.

Land Raiders. Who thought taking away Assault Transport was a good idea again?

Im going to reiterate the choices of Conscripts, Veterans, and Ogryns. The guard codex has such a wonderful diversity and yet dosen't see much if it play due to the fact that there are some choices that well outshine them.

Consripts: This used to be a total garbage unit that was used for very specific purposes and builds. They were fun and not over the top. Now they just scream MEH, which is somewhat justified pre-nerf. I think they just needed to tone down Commissars instead of conscripts and made it a minimum sized 20 man unit.

Veterans: These guys were the go to for transports as they could be much pricier than the regular IF squad but they were far more effective at being special weapon squads and also acted as a nice alternative troop choice. Now scions over shine them. I really wish they could move the old 5th edition stormtrooper rules to Veterans were you could kit them out with special abilities for a point cost, like Carapace armor, deep striking, or anti tank bombs. That would make them interesting and at least do SOMETHING to make them feel different.

Ogryns: Well they never were all that great, with a 5+ save. Now that bullgryns exist they are much worse. They can definitely deal some wounds in CC but their weapons dont really make up for their lack of armor or CC weapons. I think they should be carrying something akin to a short range heavy bolter, something akin to what Inceptors have. \

Honestly I think one of the biggest flaws of the Guard book is the removal of the Platoon. It used to be if you wanted to have access to cheap troops you really needed to double down on the platoon to make it work. Now you just pick and choose. I'd love to see something where you have to get a Platoon Commander and 3 Infantry squads to fill in a troop slot. That saying I think it should also confer a nice bonus to that unit since they are part of the same platoon, i.e. bonus orders, leadership bonus, cheap transports, expanded Regiment rules, etc. This would also make veterans an alternative choice but they would have a larger price increase to compensate. Guard should be about massed infantry, tanks, or both. Right now we aren't seeing a whole lot beyond 32 and some artillery.