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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Hey all,

I almost never see this unit mentioned, not even talked poorly about. I was just wondering your thoughts on it?

Personally, I find it rather useful. The Tyranids biggest weakness is gun fire. If they can survive until they get within melee range, they are often alright. Well the purpose of this unit is to eat up gunfire. It's only 104 points with the 5 Deathspitters or 129 points with the 5 Barbed Stranglers.

The unit itself has 12 Wounds, Toughness 6 and 4+ Save. It can be deployed up front, at least 9 inches away from the enemy deployment zone, which is between 3 and 15 inches further up than the rest of your army depending on the map. Well the purpose of this model is to soak up gun fire.

Lets compare it to another unit whose basic goal is to tie up the enemy unit, the Hormagaunt. You can get 20 unupgraded Hormagaunts (24 if you go with barbed stranglers) for the same price, which is 20 wounds, Toughness 4, 6+ Save. Also unless you sling shot them they won't have any map presence until at least turn 2-3. Once they get into melee, they completely shut down ranged units, which is their purpose. They can't really kill anything.

So its 12 wounds T6 4+ versus 20 wounds T4 6+. Which is fairly comparable, kind of forces the tank busters off of your better units and onto the Sporocyst. Well here's what makes the Sporocyst interesting. For every turn that the Sporocyst isn't killed, it essentially puts 3 more wounds onto the board, if an enemy is within 9 inches, it can put 6 more wounds onto the board for free. It summons a Mucolid spore, which is something the enemy will want to kill as soon as they can because it can do between D3-D6 mortal wounds or D6-D12 Mortal wounds if someone is within 9 inches. Which is basically several smites, except it has the psychological effect of having a unit drawing closer and closer, drawing fire.

That's a pretty good effect there in my opinion, basically a unit of Zoanthrope, which are 120 points minus the invulnerable save. On top of that, it can also shoot with 5 different guns. It has a base BS of 5+, which is horrible. Which is why I recommended the Barbed Stranglers. They have a range of 36'' which is great since this thing can't move and 9'' from the enemy deployment is their entire half of the map. It has D6 shots, so it would be 5D6 Shots. Str 5, AP -1, Dmg 1, but it gets +1 to hit if striking units with 10+ models. That's pretty good at taking out bubble wraps. If there was anyway to get it +1 more hit that would be great, but I'm not sure if fortifications gain the benefits of hive fleets, so I don't know if it can join Kronos.

So for 129 points, you have a bullet soaking Zoanthrope with a 4+ Save that also has the ability to clear out bubble wraps and if left alone compounds its own value. What do you guys think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/25 20:27:44


 
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




It's useless, move on
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

Issue is the lack of Invuln. Too much AP around to rely on T6 and a 4+. It'll get wiped T1 every single day. Combined with your admittance that "it can't kill anything", you're left with a unit that dies quickly and, even if you get First Turn, can't "make it's points back" before doing so.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




KurtAngle2 wrote:
It's useless, move on


Do you have any argument at all for that? Literally at all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flandarz wrote:
Issue is the lack of Invuln. Too much AP around to rely on T6 and a 4+. It'll get wiped T1 every single day. Combined with your admittance that "it can't kill anything", you're left with a unit that dies quickly and, even if you get First Turn, can't "make it's points back" before doing so.


Yeah it will die, but something will die turn 1 due to shooting regardless. What would the enemy target if you didn't have this? Your Carnifex? It's only difference is 3+ save and in Jormungandr, it'll also have a 3+ save and T7 which isn't much of a difference. Your Exocrine/Tyrannofex? Same thing, 3+ save. Your troops? Well Hormagaunts I already explained, Genestealers are way costly to die. I mean its goal isn't to kill enough enemies to get its own value of points, it's to draw the enemy fire so your other units can gain more value for their points and if its left ignored, it will get its value. Its basically casting a smite every turn with a Mucolid spore, and two smites if an enemy is within 9 inches. That's in addition to shooting. Also, I didn't say the Sporocyt can't kill anything, I said the Hormogaunts can't. It's not their job to, they tie things up, not kill.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/25 21:56:42


 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

Well, 5d6 shots is an average of 17.5. Even under ideal BS4+, you're looking at 8.75 hits. Against T3 (again, ideal) you'll net 7.29 Wounds, and assuming no Saves (ideal once more), that's still less than a "squad" of chaff cleared. Under less than ideal circumstance (5 model MEQ), you'll be getting 5.83 hits, 3.88 Wounds, 2.59 failed Saves. So, you can manage to pop a single Marine, more or less.

But mostly, it performs poorly as a "bullet sponge". T6 and 4+, again, withers under pretty much anything that isn't anti-infantry. For example:

15 Badmoonz Lootas. 1d3×15 shots, averages to 30 shots. 5+BS (and Dakkax3) means 13.33 hits. S7 vs T6 gives you 8.88 Wounds. -1 AP and you get 5.92 failed Saves. 2 Damage each and you just took 11.84 Damage. That's basically your Sporocyst dead, with minimal effort, from a common threat on the board. Granted, those Lootas cost 255 pts, so let's see what something with a similar price profile can do.

Let's go with 4 Smashas (also a common threat), which will cost 124 pts. They separate out into individual units once deployed, and have T5, W6, and a 4+ Save. Already more durable (as a group) than the Sporocyst. Each one has 1d3 shots and BS4+. Against your Sporocyst, that's an average of 8 shots and 4.66 hits (after Dakka). They roll 2d6 and compare the result to the target's Toughness, and equal or greater Wounds. The chances of getting a 6+ on 2d6 is 72.2%, multiplied by the hits, and you get 3.35 Wounds. -4 AP, so no Saves for you, and D6 Damage per failed Save gives 11.74 Damage, also basically a wipe.

Now, this isn't to highlight the differences in the units, but rather to demonstrate that as a damage sponge the Sporocyst kinda falls flat. These are common sights on the battlefield, and (if we're being honest) not even the best options in their respective roles (taking into consideration all Factions).

To be fair, my experience with Nids is mostly on the receiving end of my pal's army (I play Orkz, thus my examples), but just based on what has worked for him and what's fallen flat, and the math above, I think you may be overestimating the Sporocyst. Now, if you like the guy, use him. Who cares if he's "optimal" or not, right? But if you're trying to talk about the "best" unit for the job, or even a "good" one, my personal opinion is that you'll be better off with a Carnifex for soaking damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/26 01:21:51


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




He's obviously not the best, but there are two things...

1. You are averaging 11 wounds per round in both of those examples. Which means the Sporocyst will be alive for 1-2 turns depending if you go first or not. Which means he'll spawn a minimum of 3 wounds, a maximum of 12 wounds more of units on the field. Between 1-4 more units, that would require separate fire to deal with. Unless the opponent wants to take an amount of damage between D3 and 4D6.

2. Your argument seems to be based on the fact that the model doesn't have an invulnerable save. Except, almost no Tyranid units do, so what's to stop those units from shooting something else in your army? Like the Hormagaunts, which will take an average of a lot more wounds because they have even lower toughness and saves. For the same price you can get 8 genestealers, which would probably die in a single firing session. The only other unit you can get in the same price range that can take hits would be a Carnifex with Sporocyst.
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

My averages, if you look, were actually far closer to 12 than 11. So, I'd wager roughly... 40% of the time it would actually wipe the Sporocyst, rather than leave it wounded. And, remember, both examples used less than 300 pts of models to deal those numbers. So, even if it survives that volley, there's another 1700+ pts that can finish it off AND start firing on the other targets on the field.

Hormagaunts are MUCH cheaper though, yes? Let's say 6ppm (I have no idea of the actual cost, but I have to assume they're cheaper than Ork Boyz), so about 20 Horms to a Sporocyst. That's 20 Wounds, but, more importantly, that requires 20 hits, 20 Wounds, and 20 failed Saves, because excess damage doesn't roll over. That's a drastic increase in survivability for the same pricetag.

My argument is based on the claim that a Sporocyst is a bullet sponge, Invulns aside. If you're bringing Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and other infantry types, it just becomes the sole focus of every AA weapon your opponent has (which leaves all the anti-infantry handling the little guys). If you're bringing Monsters, then it will be ignored for the more dangerous Monsters you got out there (like Tyrants and such). If you're running a mix (which I STRONGLY suggest you or anyone else don't do), it's a coin toss on whether it'll just get wiped before really contributing, or if it'll be ignored for other targets (depending on army make-up).

Defend your baby all ya want. If you like him, field him. But I don't even play your army and I can tell you got better options to field. I'm sure someone with actual Nid experience will likely tell you the same thing. And I kinda assume that's why you're not really seeing them fielded on the competitive scene either.
   
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Augusta GA

Sporocysts have won me tournaments just on the merit of deepstriking turn 1 on top of objectives. If they aren’t killed they will produce an unmanageable number of mortal wounds. If you can overload your opponent with scarier looking threats they will do good work.
   
Made in no
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna






 Badablack wrote:
Sporocysts have won me tournaments just on the merit of deepstriking turn 1 on top of objectives. If they aren’t killed they will produce an unmanageable number of mortal wounds. If you can overload your opponent with scarier looking threats they will do good work.


What list did you play and when was the tournament?
I wonder because of meta and how you served your treat overload.
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

That DOES seem like a better use for them than "bullet sponge", to be fair. Like, throw 2 or 3 in your list (skip the Stranglers), and use them for Objective Holders and Board Control. Keep them in Cover or OOLOS, if possible. Don't bother with the extra Spore for being within 9", sit on Objectives in your own deployment zone, and just start filling it up with Spores. This serves 2 purposes: 1) it prevents deepstrike by denying 9" of space and 2) it makes your opponent wary of approaching your deployment zone. As long as you have additional threats on board (Tyrants, Flyrants, Carns, Hive Guard, Genestealers, etc.), you should have at least 2 or 3 turns to start filling up the board with your Spores. For about 300 pts? That's not too bad, honestly.

But don't rely on this thing's ability to divert attacks. That's just not a good role for it. Objective Holding and Area Denial are its strong suits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/26 12:03:34


 
   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






Agreed with the last couple posts in using the Sporocyst for area denial and objective holding, most of my experiences with it have been similar. It does well when left alone on a flank near an objective and out of sight and tends to do poorly when played aggressively. Mine is fitted with Venom Cannons (hold-over from 6th where it was the only decent gun for it) and generally earns its keep minding a corner.

I think the reason you don't see them popping up in tournament lists much is the opportunity cost. They require a Fortification Network detachment to take them and most events limit the number of detachments to 3. Giving up a detachment and x command points to take a single support-oriented model isn't especially efficient. If the core detachments included a single fortification slot it would probably make more appearances as an independent objective holder.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/26 23:31:17


 
   
Made in us
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Douglasville, GA

I didn't even realize he was a Fortification. Totally missed that little nugget in the OP. Yeah, if that's the case, skip it. You're losing a lot for very little gain. Just throw some Hive Guard on that Objective and call it a day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/26 20:28:40


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





I think they are good, but if you aren’t running other things that need to be dealt with they will just be blown up. However with some things like Flyrants, Carnifex, maybe even the Acid Spray Tyrannofex, then if they are primarying the Sporocysts with their AT weapons well they are in for a world of hurt the turn after, and T6 makes them pretty points effective durability wise against small arms fire. I wouldn’t run less than 3 though, numbers is their game.

They benefit from most of the good Hive Fleets, but now that we have Prepared positions, I would urge you to go Kraken everytime. If you go second they get that cover save that Jorm was giving them on the one turn it’s likely to be relevant for, and if you go first then they are already setting up from the first turn - you want those mines “sprinting” covering as much ground as possible - and these also gives you flexibility on where you deploy and still have impact.

On that note, it’s important to remember that they aren’t just offensive units. Against armies like GSC or other deep strike heavy lists, you can set up defensively and screen with them, and now that deep strike is mostly a turn 2 thing that guarantees you a turn of setting up a bunch of mines and pushing those threats outwards and forcing them to deal with free mines or get hurt.

I think Sporocysts were absolutely great in my testing, but I still have to model up the spores so haven’t been able to properly compete or play with them. I have a dream of using them with 9 Biovores, but I also don’t have the models lol. But it would be extremely hard for ground based lists to move through that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/10 14:54:16


 
   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I have a dream of using them with 9 Biovores, but I also don’t have the models lol. But it would be extremely hard for ground based lists to move through that.


Truthfully that would be pretty scary for an aircraft based list too if the entire board is covered in mines, since they have Fly.

I kinda want to try that list now thinking it over. Add a wing of Harpies and the minelaying circle is complete!
   
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Augusta GA

I’ve definitely taken out those nasty eldar flyers with the flamers with mass spore mines. Don’t even charge them, just a bunch of balloons drifting close enough. Their -3 to hit and disgusting overwatch can’t help them now.
   
 
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